Print

[throwingks]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 20 2007, 05:09 PM)

I meant for breaking down the list better than MS.  And don't give me that BS excuse for MS... because, NO, they have not handled BC as they said.  I proved that point above (Link). Also, there are plenty of working games on their list that have bugs, but they don't tell you which ones.  So why shouldn't Sony at least get credit for having a better list??  They could have simply slapped a list up like MS and pretended that they all work perfectly... which is exactly what MS did.  Anyway, perhaps you would like to read the debate above and get caught up?  We've been debating much of this already.

I have read every one of yours posts, pretty much the day you posted it. I have agreed with you even helped your arguments in the past, in other threads.

M$ has always maintained they had a less than stellar BC catalog. Evidence in your link above.
Sony claimed superiority through hardware emulation. Using it as another reason to spend $200 more on what they say is a superior machine. They even did this with the PS2.
They better admit every flaw in their BC because right now, it is under a microscope. M$ isn't because they have maintained from the beginning, BC is an afterthought.

All I am saying is, Sony was forced into making their list comprehendable, because they would receive a huge backlash from everywhere if they didn't describe, in full, the truth about their new BC.

My statements in the previous post were because of this statement:

QUOTE

Anyway, some credit must be given to Sony for classifying the games. At least you know whether to expect perfect emulation or for there to be some issues. The 360 BC lists just says which game work, but doesn't tell you if there are any issues.

I don't believe Sony deserves any credit. They are looking out for themselves. The detailed list is needed for PR because they screwed up bad already.
You compared to the 360 and I was saying the comparison is not fair. M$ does not deserve to be under a microscope. I cannot deny numbers, 1200 is good for software emulation. But, that is NOT what they advertised. And, they should do better than that since they designed and own the rights to the hardware. I personally think the list will grow. But, that is not the issue.

Comparing Sony BC to M$ BC is, and it shouldn't be done. Sony set themselves up for this. M$ isn't sin-less, but they are not under fire right now, or they would be doing things like this too.

Can you imagine what would be said if Sony didn't make a detailed list? It would spell disaster for their PR. With a quick look at the list it seems to be about 50% < than stellar titles. about 25% 1 dots. It would be a nightmare if people weren't ready for those numbers.

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 20 2007, 02:50 AM)

Actually, it was 1000 when they first announced it.  Then it was raised to 1200 a couple of weeks later.  And Phil has stated since the announcement of 1200 that they hadn't released the list because they were still adding to it.  So, yes, it is speculation... but it's based on how quickly they raised it from 1000 to 1200.  I just said I wouldn't be surprised it the final number was higher.

And I said "That's purely speculation and based on Sony's track record, I'm frankly surprised you think they'll over deliver".

Guess I was right.

You sure have a lot of misplaced faith at times!!

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE

On the other side, MS is given a free pass for their BC efforts. People act like MS blessed us by doing anything at all. While they never boasted about 100%, the DID claim they would continually work on BC and add as many titles as possible (as quote above). But now they said they are seriously considering stopping work on BC.

I think after 16 months, it's not a tragedy to think about stopping now. As it's been spelled out numerous times before (which you seem to ignore time after time) is that the GPU differences were the biggest obstacle. It's not like the 360 had the original Xbox hardware inside. By the sounds of it, software BC support for PAL PS3 systems will more or less cease before the console even launches!!

QUOTE

Both companies have backed off their original claims, yet Sony takes the most criticism by far.

And will continue do to so as long as they under-deliver and over-promise. I'm afraid it's a fact of life and frankly I'm having trouble understanding why you cannot grasp this.

QUOTE

We even have people like Martin here in this thread that actually called the N. American systems a BC 'failure' because they weren't technically 100%. Wow... a few titles out of thousands don't work... that's some failure

Ok, let me explain standard business practice: MS set a target they would achieve 10 million consoles by December 2007. They reached it so therefore their sales strategy was a SUCCESS. Had they not reached it, they would have FAILED. Hence their sales strategy would have been a failure.

Sony stated on many an occasion that the PS3 would be 100% backward compatible with Playstation and PS2 titles. Neither console (NTSC or PAL) have achieved this, therefore they failed to reach their target. Had Sony set a target for 90% BC, they would have succeeded and indeed over-delivered. People would be praising them for achieving their target.

I thought this would be an easy concept to grasp. It's certainly why there are so many disgruntled PS3 owners.

[throwingks]

http://ps3.ign.com/a...5/745506p1.html Dated: 11/13/2006

QUOTE

In response to these issues, Sony's PR department pointed out that it, from the start, expected backwards compatibility to be less than 100%. It was also good enough to point out that some people can put up with playing games that lack sound.

[Thraxen]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Mar 21 2007, 07:27 AM)

I think after 16 months, it's not a tragedy to think about stopping now. As it's been spelled out numerous times before (which you seem to ignore time after time) is that the GPU differences were the biggest obstacle. It's not like the 360 had the original Xbox hardware inside. By the sounds of it, software BC support for PAL PS3 systems will more or less cease before the console even launches!!

See.... more excuses.  MS claimed they were going to continually work on BC (as quoted), then later says, "Just kidding, we quit".  But you give them a free pass because it's 'harder'.  Boo f'ing hoo.  They over promised and under delivered just as Sony did when they said 100% BC.  What don't you grasp about that?  

QUOTE

And will continue do to so as long as they under-deliver and over-promise. I'm afraid it's a fact of life and frankly I'm having trouble understanding why you cannot grasp this.

See above.  This comment is non-sense in light of the fact both companies did the same thing.

QUOTE

Sony stated on many an occasion that the PS3 would be 100% backward compatible with Playstation and PS2 titles. Neither console (NTSC or PAL) have achieved this, therefore they failed to reach their target. Had Sony set a target for 90% BC, they would have succeeded and indeed over-delivered. People would be praising them for achieving their target.

Oh give up this lame ass point.  Damn.  So they delivered 99% BC to N. America.  Fine.  I guess they failed.  This point isn't even worth arguing anymore since it's so utterly and completely stupid.  You seem to be happier with someone aiming low and hitting their target than with someone aiming high and barley missing.  Good luck with that.  No point in setting yourself up for disappointment when you can simply not try.  A winning strategy every time, right?

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Mar 21 2007, 03:24 AM)

And I said "That's purely speculation and based on Sony's track record, I'm frankly surprised you think they'll over deliver".

Guess I was right.

You sure have a lot of misplaced faith at times!!

For the record, that statement was in reference to what I thought the number would be for the launch of the software BC.  As such, they did deliver over 1200.  But I admit that if they are now saying they don't plan to work on it much more that really is disappointing.  So now both companies are calling it quits on BC.  How disappointing.


Here's my bottom line opinion on how BC stands now:

360 BC:  A failure.  They promised continual work on BC and later said they are going to quit.  Only achieving about 35% on a rather small number of games... and many of those non-perfect.  

PS3 NTSC systems:  A success.    They claimed 100% and came very close.  Easily in the very high 90's on thousands of games and two generations of hardware.  Most non-fanboys would consider this a success. Your constant quibbling over a handful of games is nonsense and is regarded as such.

PS3 PAL systems:  A failure.  They are off to great start, but this news that they aren't going to work much more on their software emulator is highly disappointing.  So I will admit this effort must now be considered a failure.

and just for the hell of it...

Wii BC:  A success.  Nintendo claimed it would play GC games and I haven't heard of too many complaints.

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE

You seem to be happier with someone aiming low and hitting their target than with someone aiming high and barley missing. Good luck with that. No point in setting yourself up for disappointment when you can simply not try. A winning strategy every time, right?

Don't start posting stupid comments about setting targets for achievements etc. It's a waste of time.

Internally, all business set targets - most aren't achievable but it drives the company harder and will always do better than if nothing was set or measured before. This has NOTHING to do with what the public are informed for very good reasons.

Externally, customers are told realistic targets so they have expectations regarding the product or service they intend to purchase. There was no way that Sony were ever going to get 100% backward compatibility and they knew this. It didn't stop them jumping on the hype-wagon.

So in reply to your comment, you should NEVER over-promise customers, especially when you have no intention of fulfilling it.

You don't sell a HDD boasting a terabyte in unformatted partition capacity and then supply a HDD with only 900GB. "Oh, sorry about that - we did try to get a full terabyte but we couldn't manage it - I'm sure you won't mind losing the 100GB since you're still getting 900?". It's called false advertising, to which Sony are blatently guilty of.

Since you still persist to put MS and Sony in the same boat, can you please provide a link to where MS said they would provide near perfect compatiblity? I'm sure you have something, otherwise you wouldn't be so adamant.

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 21 2007, 04:12 PM)

Here's my bottom line opinion on how BC stands now:

360 BC:  A failure.  They promised continual work on BC and later said they are going to quit.  Only achieving about 35% on a rather small number of games... and many of those non-perfect.  

That's an entirely different argument to which I agree with. They should have just stated a period of time.

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 21 2007, 04:12 PM)

PS3 NTSC systems:  A success.    They claimed 100% and came very close.  Easily in the very high 90's on thousands of games and two generations of hardware.  Most non-fanboys would consider this a success. Your constant quibbling over a handful of games is nonsense and is regarded as such.

You either didn't read throwingks post earlier, or chose to ignore it. If you call nearly 200 titles a "handful", you are living on a different planet. So suppose you owned 20% of those titles - this "handful" may be 80% of your games library. You're going through your library of PS2 and Playstation games on your new $600 PS3.

...loading problems..
ok, next title.
...sound problems..
ok, onto the next one.
..game hangs..

Considering this console was described by Sony as 'near perfect' compatibility, where does this leave the consumer? It's only nonsense if you're lucky enough not to own any of the problematic titles - that's an extremely narrow-minded view and pretty selfish TBH. So it doesn't affect you - hurrah for you then, eh?

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 21 2007, 04:12 PM)

PS3 PAL systems:  A failure.  They are off to great start, but this news that they aren't going to work much more on their software emulator is highly disappointing.  So I will admit this effort must now be considered a failure.

Agree with exception to the first statement. They were never off to a great start. The software BC was always a cheap trade-off with Sony and should have been seen as such. If they couldn't manage 100% compatibility with the actual PS2 hardware in the PS3, it was blatently obvious it was never going to happen with the software implementation.

[dokworm]

So you don't think that us Aussie and Euro buyers shouldn't feel completely and totally ripped off by Sony when they harped on about 100% compatibility for a year, and repeatedly bagged MS for supplying only software emulation for popular titles.

And THEN they quietly drop the chip out of the PAL models and leave us with about half of the total library of PS2 and PS1 titles not working at all, and others working with annoying problems.

Microsoft said from the outset they would do as many as possible, 18months later they are scaling down work on it, which makes sense and is longer than most people expected.

Buying a 360 you went in with your eyes open, they never pretended that BC was going to be comprehensive or perfect so you knew not to hock your xbox1 to buy a 360.

For those of us that sold our PS2 hardware based on the promise from Sony, only to have it pulled at the last minute, well that is nothing but a big fat lie.

They must have had this planned for some time too the bastages, you can't just rip out a chip or two and get SW emulation up and running in a few weeks - this must have been on the table for a l-o-n-g time, and is just dirty (not to mention all the ports, dual outputs etc. that disappeared before the US release).

Why Sony thinks it is OK to charge us more and dump an inferior product on us is beyond me. That sort of disregard for customers is just disgusting.

[dokworm]

QUOTE

The PS3 has full backward compatibility, all the way back to PSX. The Xbox 360 will only be compatible with certain key games--one doesn't have to think very hard to come up with the names of those games--but it won't play even close to everything. Microsoft will be updating this game list as time goes on, presumably through Xbox Live, but that just sounds like a hassle. And what if you don't use Live? The PS3, meanwhile, supports every single PSOne and PS2 game (with a few inevitable oddball exceptions, of course). That's a massive advantage for Sony, and it could play a major factor into many gamers' buying decisions. Kudos to Microsoft for trying to hustle in backward compatibilty at the last second, but it only gets partial credit for doing a partial job. Sony clearly thought ahead, and that's a huge advantage.

Hmmm....

QUOTE

The PS3's native 1080p support, along with dual display support. This may seem like a little thing, but it could prove to be a crucial advantage for the PS3.

Hmm, where is my dual display support?

QUOTE

The PS3's CPU is nearly twice as fastas the Xbox 360's. The Xbox 360 has three 3.2 Ghz PowerPC cores; the PS3's weirdo Cell processor is also rated as 3.2 Ghz. But in terms of true performance--GigaFLOPs, a term which relates to the sheer volume of complex floating point operations a processor can handle--there's no contest. The Xbox CPUs hover at around 115 Gigaflops; the PS3's CPU weighs in with 218 Gigaflops. Both CPUs are enormously powerful, but the PS3's is nearly twice as fast as the 360's. That will allow for more advanced physics models, more impressive special effects, bigger, more detailed environments, and so on. There are three main technological battlefronts: RAM (Xbox 360 and PS3 tie), graphics processing power (likely another tie, or a narrow win for one console), and CPU power. The PS3 handily wins the crucial CPU fight without even breaking a sweat. That's huge.

Yeah right, so why do the PS3 games look and perform the same (or even worse in some cases) than the 360 games?

QUOTE

If you look on the back of the PS3 you will see some cool new features. There are two HDMI outputs, which will allow you to hook up your Playstation 3 to two HDTV monitors. HDMI is a full digital video and audio connection method which allows you to get a cleaner signal. There are also two more USB ports in the rear in case the four in the front aren't enough. There are also three network ports, a power cutoff switch, and the AC-in which is different from the one on the PS1 and PS2. It will also allow you to hook the PlayStation 3 to two HDTV monitors. You will be able to use your surround sound and listen to your video games with the high-end audio capabilities

When I look at the back of the PAL PS3 I seem to be missing some of these cool new features.

Sure stuff changes but Sony constantly does this, lies about the specs and the tries to quietly pretend it never happened while delivering a good - but nowhere near promised - product.