Print

[Aerok]

Niiiice, much better than Microsoft ever did in a year.

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(Aerok @ Mar 15 2007, 08:15 PM)

Niiiice, much better than Microsoft ever did in a year.

I think you'll find that since Sony promised 100% compatibility with PlayStation and PS2 games, that they haven't achieved this in any market. Even the US/JAP releases of the PS3 aren't 100% compatible. The European version is nowhere near.

Microsoft said from the start that their BC efforts would be minimal.

Let's wait and see what Sony release before praising/critisizing tho - we all know they're prone to stretching the truth. By that I mean lying through their arses.

Martin

[Thraxen]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Mar 16 2007, 05:51 AM)

I think you'll find that since Sony promised 100% compatibility with PlayStation and PS2 games, that they haven't achieved this in any market. Even the US/JAP releases of the PS3 aren't 100% compatible. The European version is nowhere near.

Well, obviously 100% BC is nearly impossible.  But for all practical purposes the N. American PS3 are 100%.

[Mr Invader]

QUOTE(Aerok @ Mar 16 2007, 09:09 AM)

They never said the BC effort would be minimal, they said enough effort would be put to satisfy the owners. Now are we all satisfied? Judging by many posts in this forum, no.

QUOTE

We under promised and over delivered on that.

^Peter Moore on BC

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 17 2007, 12:35 AM)

Well, obviously 100% BC is nearly impossible.  But for all practical purposes the N. American PS3 are 100%.

Obviously? Not to Sony it wasn't. That's all they spewed for the last 12 months and more, not forgetting they tore into MS for using Software emulation.

Either it's 100% BC or it's not. Sony say it isn't:

Taken from the SCEA website

http://www.us.playst...ompatibleStatus

QUOTE

Final Fantasy Anthology
Publisher: Square EA (Square Enix)
Product No: SLUS-00879
Description: On the Final Fantasy V Disc (Disc 1), when the user’s character progresses to the first save point, and selects SAVE from the Game Menu, a black transition screen appears and the title hangs.

Final Fantasy VIII
Publisher: Square EA (Square Enix)
Product No: SLUS-00892
Description: Throughout gameplay, when the user's party encounters a random enemy in the "world map", and the “pre-battle” transition screen appears, approximately 40 - 60% of the “pre-battle” transition screen appears black, and the remaining portion of the screen appears corrupted.

C-12: Final Resistance
Publisher: Sony Computer Entertainment
Product No: SCUS-94666
Description: In NEW GAME mode, when the opening FMV plays, the dialogue audio does not play. Note: When this issue occurs, and the user presses the X button to bypass the FMV, and the FMV ending sequence plays, the title hangs.

Tomb Raider
Publisher: Eidos
Product No: SLUS-00152
Description: When the title is left inactive for approximately 15 seconds on the Main menu, the title hangs.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Publisher: Electronic Arts
Product No: SLUS-20926
Description: In all areas of the title allowing EyeToy™ USB Camera interaction, the screen freezes at random points for approximately 1 - 10 seconds, and the title may hang.

Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence
Publisher: Konami Digital Ent.
Product No: SLUS-21243
Description: During network gameplay, with 1 PS3 user hosting a Team Deathmatch Game Type, and 5 other users as clients, the host is randomly disconnected, and is unable to reconnect

NHL 07
Publisher: Electronic Arts
Product No: SLUS-21458
Description: During network gameplay, the user is randomly disconnected, and is unable to reconnect.

Vampire Hunter D
Publisher: Jaleco
Product No: SLUS-01138
Description: Upon boot-up, the title remains on a black screen following the initial loading screen.

These took about 5 minutes to search. For all practical purposes, these games either don't play as intended or don't work at all. Why would they have a website to check compatibility if they were practically 100% BC?

If 100% BC was never achieveable, Sony should have just said that from the start. I'm sure the people in the UK buying a PS3 to replace their PS2 will sleep soundly in their beds knowing that although Sony lied through their teeth, they stripped the hardware BC out of the UK PS3 and are still charging more for it.

As for Xbox BC on the 360, I was never disappointed as I knew it was going to be thin on the ground. That's the benefit of being told the facts from the start.

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 17 2007, 04:40 PM)

Your point?  I said 'practically'.  Considering there are several thousand PS1 and PS2 games, you're still talking about BC that is likely somewhere in the neighborhood of 99%+.  And, damn, if your going to start counting games that play but have a bug or two in them you're going to have to remove at least half of MS' BC list too.  You're right... the PR guys should have never said '100%'... but anyone with a brain knew that people were going to be able to find a game or two that didn't work.  The same thing happened with the PS2.  There were a few PS1 games that didn't work.  But for all practical purposes most people consider the PS2 to be 100% BC with PS1 games.  And at the end of the day... despite any claims the PR guys made that Sony didn't deliver on, Sony's BC is better, using hardware OR software, than MS and the 360.

Where are you getting 99%+ from? Have you already been through the site I linked and added the totals?

My point is that with any of the examples where it says 'title hangs', it means the game's unplayable. We're not talking about bugs here. No, for the list of games with bugs we're talking a helluva lot more. I expect some BC bugs, but not unplayable games when you've basically ripped the guts out of a PS2 and implanted into another console. FTR, games in the PlayStation database which work are not listed as 'working', or 'ok', rather listed as 'no major problems'. Whew - that's a relief.

I just found 5 games unplayable without even trying. Again, not 1 or 2.

What annoys me the most is that people defended Sony when they made the 100% BC statement and even in the face of failure, people still defend it. "Oh we all knew it wouldn't be ALL games". Aye, right!

Finally, to say that non-AA and badly upscaled BC is better than FSAA and HD BC needs a new pair of glasses. The quantity of BC games that MS have released may not be as big as the PS2s, but it sure beats it in quality.

I'm just hoping the software BC effort produces a better output. Otherwise there are going to be a LOT of UK PS3s on eBay. For most people I know interested in getting the PS3, they have no intention of buying many PS3 games just yet. I'm wondering how long it'll be before they dig out the PS2 again.....

[Foe-hammer]

The only reason i want BC is if the games are upscaled and have 4xAA.  So if BC does not have at least that, then i could care less; i'll just play them on their original system, of which will always play the game better.  I expect last gen games to have a noticeable graphic boost on next gen systems.

[Martinchris23]

I already own a Playstation (yes the original release), PS2, Xbox, 360 and a couple of Nintendo DSs. The games on the PS3 right now are no better than on the 360, which has a massive list of games to it's arsenal. I also own the HD-DVD drive for the 360 so I have my HD Movie portion covered. Why would I want to buy a £500 / $1000 console when the games I already own on the PS and PS2 play much better on their original consoles?

I'm as much as a fanboy as the next person who owns consoles from all three companys. Xbox is actually outnumbered in this house - sorry to disappoint you. If it were MS screwing around with consumers, they'd get backlash too.

You've forgotten this thread is to discuss the SOFTWARE emulation provided for the Euro PS3s. Can you tell me how 1,200 games is 99% of all PS/PS2 games?

I can't tell you how many people in the UK are aware that the European console is different to the US/JP version, but I know it's not many. By your comments, you think it's perfectly acceptable to announce full BC and then only deliver 1,200 BWO a software emulator.

I don't agree - I think if you stopped being a fanboy yourself for 5 minutes, you wouldn't agree either.

[Foe-hammer]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 18 2007, 12:45 AM)

Fair enough, but I don't care to have a half dozen systems connected to my TV.  It's nice to be able to retire them.  The 360's BC doesn't bother me that much since my original XBox is still in use thanks to XBMC and the emulators.   But the PS3 and Wii have taken over the PS2's and Cube's game duties.  Every game I've tried on each has worked perfectly.  So why bother having them all connected?  It just creates unnecessary wire clutter... and I already have too much of that anyway.  The fact that neither upscales really doesn't matter to me.  It would be nice if they did, but the fact they can replace their predecessors is good enough.  If they were like the 360 and could only do <50% of the older games I likely wouldn't even be able to retire them due to games not working.  Then I'd have two more systems connected to my TV.  No thanks.

Agreed.  I love having one system do as much as possible, and also use the orignal xbox quite a bit for xbmc and emulators.  MS's BC is piss poor; no question about it.  But i'm glad they at least improved the graphics on the few that do work well.  If only they would get morrowind and rallisport challange 2 BC, i'd have no complaints...well very few anyway.

[Thraxen]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Mar 18 2007, 04:41 AM)

I already own a Playstation (yes the original release), PS2, Xbox, 360 and a couple of Nintendo DSs. The games on the PS3 right now are no better than on the 360, which has a massive list of games to it's arsenal. I also own the HD-DVD drive for the 360 so I have my HD Movie portion covered. Why would I want to buy a £500 / $1000 console when the games I already own on the PS and PS2 play much better on their original consoles?

I'm as much as a fanboy as the next person who owns consoles from all three companys. Xbox is actually outnumbered in this house - sorry to disappoint you. If it were MS screwing around with consumers, they'd get backlash too.

This was never a discussion about 360 and PS3 retail games.  You will get no argument from me that the 360 line-up is currently the best of any of the new systems.  As for MS screwing around with customers... poor BC, loads of dead systems, and a supposed new version featuring HDMI.   I'm not overly concerned with any of that since my situation is such that none of those have really impacted me, but they have affected a lot of people.  MS has been no angel.  I know the Sony PR guys have really brought much of this down on them, but it's getting REALLY old.  Then when someone like you comes along and calls the PS3 BC a 'failure'.... then I know the Sony hate bandwagon has gone too far.... it's a ludicrous statement to make.

QUOTE

You've forgotten this thread is to discuss the SOFTWARE emulation provided for the Euro PS3s. Can you tell me how 1,200 games is 99% of all PS/PS2 games?

Excuse me... but YOU brought the N. American PS3 into the discussion when you tried to nitpick over the fact that it wasn't actually technically 100%.   I never made the claim that the European PS3 was 99%.  Don't put words in my mouth.   The only claim I've made regarding their move to software BC was that it was better out of the gate than MS' software BC after 1 year.  

QUOTE

I can't tell you how many people in the UK are aware that the European console is different to the US/JP version, but I know it's not many. By your comments, you think it's perfectly acceptable to announce full BC and then only deliver 1,200 BWO a software emulator.

The move to software emulation is once that has been know for close to a year.  They've been saying for quite a while they planned to remove the PS2 chips at some point to cut costs, but wouldn't do it until they felt the software emulator was good enough.  It shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone at this point.  If you feel cheated, don't buy one.  

Anyway, expect that 1200 number to be higher at launch.  That's why they haven't released the official list yet.  They are trying to certify as many games as possible for the v1.6 firmware release.  I wouldn't be surprised if the final list for the 1.6 firmware was 1400-1500 games.

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE

This was never a discussion about 360 and PS3 retail games.

No, but the point was made in reply to you suggesting I play some BC games on a PS3. Again, why would I want a PS3?

QUOTE

As for MS screwing around with customers... poor BC, loads of dead systems, and a supposed new version featuring HDMI

Again, why are you discussing the MS BC so vehemently? This thread is about the European support of PS3 games. Each argument submitted has been "Well, it's better than MS's effort". Well it damned well should be. I will say this again as it falls on deaf ears - MS never intended to release BC for the 360. Their official communication said as much. Compared to a company which promised full BC, it's an applauded effort when you have the likes of Sony sho seem to think that shunning their European market won't hurt them.
MS didn't own the intellectual rights to the Xbox and a change in GPU made things ultimately harder.
Anyone with a shred of common sense would tell you to over-deliver is always better to over-promise.

And yes, if a company promises to deliver 100% BC (official Sony marketing), and they don't manage it (which they haven't done) it means they failed to deliver. Hence it being a failure.

Loads of dead systems? Mine's been fine from launch day and everyone I know with a 360 will tell you the same with theirs. When you have over 10.5 million consoles, you're bound to have some failures.

The HDMI was never confirmed by Microsoft - in fact they denied it when asked.

QUOTE

Excuse me... but YOU brought the N. American PS3 into the discussion when you tried to nitpick over the fact that it wasn't actually technically 100%

Because you were so confident it was practically 100%. It clearly isn't. Their FAQ stated as much too "Some games will not work as intended, whereas other may not work at all" !!!.
The point was relevent however - if they cannot manage full compatibility with the original hardware, how long will it be to achieve near 100% using a software solution?

QUOTE

I wouldn't be surprised if the final list for the 1.6 firmware was 1400-1500 games.

That's purely speculation and based on Sony's track record, I'm frankly surprised you think they'll over deliver. The official statement says 1200 at launch, therefore it's 1200 at launch.

Forget the rest of the argument as it's not going to get anywhere fast - just answer me this (which you still failed to answer) - How is 1200 titles anywhere near 100%?

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 20 2007, 02:50 AM)

It's so absurd how people can constantly bash Sony and totally ignore MS' shortcomings.

Well, I'm in the PS3 section of the forums, so surely the focus is on Sony?? If I want to bash MS (which I have done so), I'll do it in the Xbox forums.

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 20 2007, 02:50 AM)

People constantly bash Sony and turning a blind eye to failings by other companies.  Again, I understand that Sony boasts more than the others, but it's ridiculous how people act as if only Sony does these sorts of things.

see above.

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 20 2007, 02:50 AM)

I guess if someone was hinging their purchase on complete BC they can now opt to not buy the system.  For those of us in N. America, despite the fact you dug up one game that for sure doesn't work, they essentially delivered what they said in terms of BC before the launch here.

There lies the rub - take a guess as to what information has been advertised regarding the PS3 in the UK, which would separate the two in terms of functionality?

I'll tell you - none.

Anyone who pre-ordered the PS3 will be assuming it's going to be compatible with all their older games. This is my point exactly. What have Sony done to correct this (mis)information? How can someone make an informed choice when they're not aware of the difference? Jeez, the national newspapers are running promotions on the PS3 this week and are still showing pictures of the concept PS3 with the boomerang controller!!!

I really want to continue this discussion, but unless you want to keep it on topic I have no further interest. My biggest concern is the level of ignorance within the UK for the PAL console and what damage it'll do for the games industry in general.

[KAGE360]

great news, i admit it's more then i originally expected.  

im sure the ps2 GPU in the ps3 is the main factor behind the high number.  this is why i dont understand why the 360 and ps3 are being compared with BC, one has no components to help while the other has the GPU of the previous console.  if the 360 had a Gforce 3 in it, then i would go so far to say 99% of xbox1 games would be BC.  

either way, BC was never a deal breaker or even an issue for me.  personally i like microsoft's approach of developing the system first with no comprimises then building a system with BC in mind that may have some negative effects.  then again, this is coming from someone who cares little for BC, i buy my next gen systems to play next gen games.

[throwingks]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 20 2007, 01:36 PM)

Sony just put up the BC site:
http://faq.eu.playst.../bc/bcGames.htm

PS2 games are about where I thought they would be, but I am surprised at the PSOne list.   Given that the PSP has a good PSOne emulator I would have thought more PSOne games would have been listed.   I'm wondering if they are all not working or if many of them simply haven't been tested.  I'm leaning toward the latter because I can think of no reason why the PS2 BC% should be higher.  

Anyway, some credit must be given to Sony for classifying the games.  At least you know whether to expect perfect emulation or for there to be some issues.  The 360 BC lists just says which game work, but doesn't tell you if there are any issues.

Sony better have that kind of list or the would be one Hell of a backlash. I don't give them credit at all, they are covering their asses.

They already fucked up BC once, if they did again, they would for sure have some lawsuit. Simply because of unfulfilled promises. The reason M$ doesn't have that list, is they handled BC they way they said they would from the beginning.

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(Thraxen @ Mar 20 2007, 09:09 PM)

We've been debating much of this already.

Lol, and how!

I believe this new part of the eu.playstation.com website is the first time they've publicly announced what the PS3 can('t) do. I'm surprised as you that the PlayStation emulation is as bad as it is. I would have thought a PlayStation emulator would have been a doddle to code, especially since we've had some pretty good ones on the PC for ages now - Bleem and PSexe spring to mind.

My only point about the hardware BC of the N.American PS3 is that Sony should not have stated it was going to be 100% compatible. 100% is absolute - there is no variance. This isn't the case - all it takes is one unplayable title and they fail. I don't care how you cut it, but 100% is 100% - end of story.
Going forward, I hope they'll be less spin and more truth from Sony from now on - the release of these pie charts is a big step in the right direction. I fear it's come too late for people with pre-orders to change their mind (although was that their intention from the get-go???).

Martin