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[Pheidias]

Well the MS supporters seems to need to tell themself that they everyone are paying extra for the blueray drive, when infact they are not. The only thing not having blueray would have achieved would have been a on schedule launch and then we would have probably seen the same outcome in this generation as last one with a 70 15 15 split. Now with blueray and a late launch the take will probably be 40 30 30,  with anyone claiming the 40% but my guess is that will be the wii since its cheaper and a excellent compliment to the other graphic horny consoles.

Bluedragon on three dvds can't take up more then 21gb (1 dvd=7GB of usable space) therefor it would fit just fine on single layer BD. And a duallayer Hd-dvd would also be enough.

And If a console such as the ps3 wants to continue its FMV craze and are gonna aim for 1080p, then we can't exactly have the FMV in anything less? a 30min 1080p FMV (Jap RPG tend to use a whole lot of FMV) would take up something like a dvd5 or more depending on compression sound etc, and then there aren't much space left for the game.

But its true we won't likely see the actual "game" exceed 7GB that often.

If you consider that the xbox1's 1G games averaged 1.8gb and the last gen averaged 3.2GB. You are seeing a pretty big increase in size.  yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada
yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada
yada yada yada yada  5% of games will be on more then one disc

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(bluie @ Nov 30 2006, 09:33 AM)

Im sorry but you are completely off. You are not paying extra but actually being subsidized by sony (and ms). Because of the "format war". So this competition is a good thing. And if there were to be no competetion.. well forget about the winning company keeping up the standard practice of selling consoles at a loss :X

Get over it and embrace the competition wherever it comes from.

what does the movie format war have to do with companies selling consoles at a loss?  it has been done long before any format war developed.  i embrace competition within the game industry as it benefits us gamers but what happens in hollywood hardly effects us gamers.

QUOTE(Pheidias @ Nov 30 2006, 11:21 AM)

Well the MS supporters seems to need to tell themself that they everyone are paying extra for the blueray drive, when infact they are not. The only thing not having blueray would have achieved would have been a on schedule launch and then we would have probably seen the same outcome in this generation as last one with a 70 15 15 split. Now with blueray and a late launch the take will probably be 40 30 30,  with anyone claiming the 40% but my guess is that will be the wii since its cheaper and a excellent compliment to the other graphic horny consoles.

Bluedragon on three dvds can't take up more then 21gb (1 dvd=7GB of usable space) therefor it would fit just fine on single layer BD. And a duallayer Hd-dvd would also be enough.

And If a console such as the ps3 wants to continue its FMV craze and are gonna aim for 1080p, then we can't exactly have the FMV in anything less? a 30min 1080p FMV (Jap RPG tend to use a whole lot of FMV) would take up something like a dvd5 or more depending on compression sound etc, and then there aren't much space left for the game.

But its true we won't likely see the actual "game" exceed 7GB that often.

If you consider that the xbox1's 1G games averaged 1.8gb and the last gen averaged 3.2GB. You are seeing a pretty big increase in size.  yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada
yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada
yada yada yada yada  5% of games will be on more then one disc

tell me please why the ps3 costs $200 more then the 360 if your not paying extra for the blue ray drive.  bot machines are composed of around 1700 components and are comparable in power, so other then the Cell chip (another form of technology that sony is using the ps3 to succeed with) where else is the cost going?  it has been stated many times by experts that the blue ray drive is the ps3's biggest price kicker.  

you have your thoughts all twisted up, seriously bad too.  

also its very innacurate to compare any previous generation to this one.  compression has evolved in many ways just from the last generation alone.  as for the topic, its obvious that blue-ray isnt needed.

very sad how zombies try to argue this point.

[Pheidias]

Acctually Blueray is needed if you don't want to go dual or tripple disc on some games. And I figure that is why its in there. Also as I posted in another thread Isupply has a esitmate of all the costs in the ps3 and the most expensive part is the cell then the bluray drive at 125$, sure 125$ is alot but it isn't what is driving up the price of the console. And if you'd read the Isupply article you'll see that the x360 and ps3 doesn't compare component wise at all, the ps3 has some insane parts in it.

And yes I agree its very sad how you try to argue your point...

[Mr Invader]

As long as Blue Dragon is the same price as other games, then there isn't a reason why anyone should complain. Three discs allow friends to share games easier. Probably a reason why it needs 3 discs is for HD cutscenes, which take way more space than cutscenes being ran using the game engine, like GoW vs. Resistance. More and more games on the 360 are limiting cutscenes or making them using the game engine, which makes it more impressive in one way or another.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Pheidias @ Nov 30 2006, 01:28 PM)

Acctually Blueray is needed if you don't want to go dual or tripple disc on some games. And I figure that is why its in there. Also as I posted in another thread Isupply has a esitmate of all the costs in the ps3 and the most expensive part is the cell then the bluray drive at 125$, sure 125$ is alot but it isn't what is driving up the price of the console. And if you'd read the Isupply article you'll see that the x360 and ps3 doesn't compare component wise at all, the ps3 has some insane parts in it.

And yes I agree its very sad how you try to argue your point...

if we could ban people for being stupid im sure you would be one of the top of the list.  to avoid making games multiple disk is not a need, its a preference or a want based on being lazy.  good try twisting that around though.  

isupply is only an estimate, besides i never said it was the most expensive part, i just said that it was one of the most expensive parts other then the Cell.  you did nothing but prove my point.  when your making a mass market product like a game console, a single component that is above $100 is A LOT and will drive the cost up.  so again you only proved my point, the Cell and the blue-ray are why the console is $200 more.  

both systems have around 1700 parts, you are the LAST person to make any kind of judgement on that.  your stupid enough for going only by Isupply thinking that they list all of the components.  i know that at the 360 launch it was described that the 360 was the most complex game system with around 1700 parts, the same was said about the ps3 around it's launch.  dont question me boy.  

go and keep playing the twisted game, you might as well be wearing an "im with stupid shirt" that points up to your face to show off your lack of intelligence

i just saw the other two posts before mine while i was typing this, hopefully now you will how wrong you are.  IF you really are not one of those brainless sony zombies then there should be no further trivial debates.

[Pheidias]

Wow the tripple threat now all we need is deftech to chime in and its a done deal.

I'm thinking Twisted might close this thread soon. So I'll end on a high note. I said to fit 21gb of data on one disc you need a medium that holds more then 7gb per disc. To wich you reply, are you stupid that is no need that is a preference. To wich I now reply, you should go back to school and don't quit until you atleast pass 7th grade.

And about the parts I took that from the isupply, who I figure nows alot more then you do about electroni parts and what I said was that the parts in the ps3 has nothing in common with the x360. I never said anything about any numbers.

Here's the part I based my argument on

“To give an example of how cutting-edge the design is, in the entire history of the iSuppli Teardown Analysis team, we have seen only three semiconductors with 1,200 or more pins. The PlayStation 3 has three such semiconductors all by itself,” Rassweiler noted. “There is nothing cheap about the PlayStation 3 design. This is not an adapted PC design. Even beyond the major chips in the PlayStation 3, the other components seem to also be expensive and somewhat exotic.”

So if your the smart one and i'm the stupid one, I'll gladly and proudly wear the stupid hat

[VariableElite]

QUOTE(Pheidias @ Nov 30 2006, 12:21 AM)

MR I you should read my posts if you want to reply to them...

Acctually if you read your post your saying MS makes moves that will bring or save them the most money, nothing else. And i'd like to see a link to the devs asking ms not to use a bigger medium.

Why would developers EVER ask for anything as retarded as that?

"Hey, MS, the CPU in the 360's a bit too fast for our tastes. Can you slow it down? Oh, and there's too much RAM in there, too."

I think the problem here is not that we are all MS fanbois (we aren't); it's just that you apparently feel Sony can do no wrong. MS announces that they will extend the warranties of launch consoles; you decry this as evidence of incompetence on their part. Sony launches a system with a broken and useless online network; you claim that it's better than Live because it's free.

It's a case of heads you lose, tails I win.

The only problem is that Sony is actually losing this war, and it's because of their own design. If they truly wanted a dedicated game system, they'd put in a high-speed DVD-ROM drive and a 500GB 3.5" S/ATA drive so that people could install the full game of Resistance on the console. Instead, they've picked the inferior format and have to cram it down the public's collective throat in order to win. Their excuses for the drive being necessary for HD gaming are just those -- excuses. Pardon me if you're the only one here not to see through them.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Pheidias @ Nov 30 2006, 03:30 PM)

Wow the tripple threat now all we need is deftech to chime in and its a done deal.

I'm thinking Twisted might close this thread soon. So I'll end on a high note. I said to fit 21gb of data on one disc you need a medium that holds more then 7gb per disc. To wich you reply, are you stupid that is no need that is a preference. To wich I now reply, you should go back to school and don't quit until you atleast pass 7th grade.

And about the parts I took that from the isupply, who I figure nows alot more then you do about electroni parts and what I said was that the parts in the ps3 has nothing in common with the x360. I never said anything about any numbers.

Here's the part I based my argument on

“To give an example of how cutting-edge the design is, in the entire history of the iSuppli Teardown Analysis team, we have seen only three semiconductors with 1,200 or more pins. The PlayStation 3 has three such semiconductors all by itself,” Rassweiler noted. “There is nothing cheap about the PlayStation 3 design. This is not an adapted PC design. Even beyond the major chips in the PlayStation 3, the other components seem to also be expensive and somewhat exotic.”

So if your the smart one and i'm the stupid one, I'll gladly and proudly wear the stupid hat

again playing the twisted game.  you might as well work for sony or at least get paid by them with how much you defend them.  

sony themselves admitted that the ps3's biggest competitor is the HD-DVD player, not the 360 or Wii......

QUOTE

Sony not competing with Microsoft, Nintendo

You'd think that after the buzz the PS3 has been getting lately, Sony would be a little more confident in itself. Analysts are predicting major victory for the PS3 and it even got a (pseudo) political endorsement. Yuichi Ejiri, general manager of sales and marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment Hong Kong, wasn't completely ecstatic about his product.

According to Dow Jones, Ejiri "conceded that competition in the game console market is intensifying with rivals Microsoft Corp. and Nintendo Co. offering cheaper devices," an odd concession from a Sony official on the day the PS3 launched in his own territory. The Hong Kong 60GB PS3, priced at HK$3,780 (or $485 US, those lucky bastards), is competition for HD-DVD, or so Ejiri says.

Sony is sending the consumer base mixed messages on what the PS3 is supposed to be. Is it competing against the Xbox 360 or against HD-DVD? Sony is going to have a difficult time trying to split loyalties between the two abilities. We suggest they pick one main feature (go for the games!) and treat the other as a value add.

http://www.joystiq.c...osoft-nintendo/

so there we go, you will argue with us till you die but will you argue with sony?  you hanging off their nuts after all, you should have known this.  

[bluie]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Nov 30 2006, 06:10 PM)

also its very innacurate to compare any previous generation to this one.  compression has evolved in many ways just from the last generation alone.  as for the topic, its obvious that blue-ray isnt needed.

very sad how zombies try to argue this point.

Yeah, well, who's ever going to need more than 640Kb of memory?

CDs are expensive and useless! Its much better and cheaper to use floppies.

DVDs are expensive and useless! Its much better and cheaper to use CD's

etc etc etc into infinity.

The point here of course being that more space is always a good thing. Trying to claim it isnt needed is always a guaranteed way of making oneself look silly in a few years. And i predict that if MS insists on not releasing games for their HD-DVD addon it will make them suffer. Not this year and maybe not as much the year after. But after that? DVD-9 wont be providing enough space forever and ceirtanly not for as long as the ps3/360 will be around.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(bluie @ Nov 30 2006, 05:24 PM)

Yeah, well, who's ever going to need more than 640Kb of memory?

CDs are expensive and useless! Its much better and cheaper to use floppies.

DVDs are expensive and useless! Its much better and cheaper to use CD's

etc etc etc into infinity.

The point here of course being that more space is always a good thing. Trying to claim it isnt needed is always a guaranteed way of making oneself look silly in a few years. And i predict that if MS insists on not releasing games for their HD-DVD addon it will make them suffer. Not this year and maybe not as much the year after. But after that? DVD-9 wont be providing enough space forever and ceirtanly not for as long as the ps3/360 will be around.

and just by spewing such rubbish you show how your no better then anyone else debating this point.  so if space is so important then why didnt sony use the 5+ layer DVD technology that they own?  this way gamers such as yourself would have the space "needed" and still have a cost effective console.  but no, sony had to drag this generation of gaming into the format war.  

the jump in storage from floppy to CD or CD to DVD is FAR greater then from DVD to blue-ray.

also you claim that if microsoft doesnt start using the HD-DVD drive for gaming then they will suffer.  do you even realize how stupid of a move this would be?  obviously to you the best way to please your userbase is to screw over the early adopters and everyone else that purchased the system within the first couple years.  yeah that makes a whole lot of sense.  why bother even posting if its going to be so stupid?

i can go on and on so please spare me the time, if the games we are playing now havent proven anything to you then nothing will.

i guess since sony said we need blue-ray it must be true!  what was i thinking?  it would have been sooo much better if i had to pay at least $100 more for the same system just to support an unproven format!  

not everyone can be as blind as you guys

[Pheidias]

This discussion is about if bluray is needed or neccesary to fit some games into a single disc medium. I can't see how their still is people who say it isn't. If like you said MS is even forcing developers to use ingame rendering becouse of the lack of space on one disc it pretty obvious its hard or even impossible to fit the stuff developers want to on one disc.

And what is up with this 5 layer thing. So if they added this technique instead but not bluray you'd wanna pay for it? Maybe they should have used hologram disc? I believe that BD is the cheapest way for sony to go bigger then dvd, maybe hddvd had been cheaper.


And you should really read the articles you post, a HK employee says "We won't compete with 360" and then the one who write the article goes then who are they competing with hddvd? Not exactly from the devils mouth.

And just to point out I in no way believe that sony isn't fighting a two front war. And is using ps3 to help push blueray.

[VariableElite]

QUOTE(bluie @ Dec 1 2006, 02:56 AM)

Wow. The increase from floppy to cd is bigger than the increase from dvd to bluray. Yea that COMPLETELY invalidates my point. Duh. "rollseyes"

And wether the ps3 needs the extra storage or not is actually beside the real point - the point being that the 360 will NEED more storage in a year or so, only because the PS3 already has it. Innovation is rarely NEEDED from the beginning, the need is created by the innovation.
Just like the cd wasnt needed from day one, or the dvd.
I even bet the first 1 meg ram memory wasnt really needed much...

When the first hd-dvd game is produced for the x360 we will see who was blind and who wasnt.. they might even do what the industry does with the pc-games today - release one version on a multi-disk dvd and another on hd-dvd. Anyway, i dont see why not - seems like a smart idea to me.

By this logic, the PS2 NEEDED more RAM, a faster processor, and a hard drive in order to compete with the Xbox.

And yet...  

Before you start spewing nonsense about the PS2 launching first and having a higher userbase, better games, and more games, remember which next-gen console launched first, has a higher userbase, better games, and more of them...

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Pheidias @ Dec 1 2006, 01:18 AM)

This discussion is about if bluray is needed or neccesary to fit some games into a single disc medium. I can't see how their still is people who say it isn't. If like you said MS is even forcing developers to use ingame rendering becouse of the lack of space on one disc it pretty obvious its hard or even impossible to fit the stuff developers want to on one disc.

And what is up with this 5 layer thing. So if they added this technique instead but not bluray you'd wanna pay for it? Maybe they should have used hologram disc? I believe that BD is the cheapest way for sony to go bigger then dvd, maybe hddvd had been cheaper.
And you should really read the articles you post, a HK employee says "We won't compete with 360" and then the one who write the article goes then who are they competing with hddvd? Not exactly from the devils mouth.

And just to point out I in no way believe that sony isn't fighting a two front war. And is using ps3 to help push blueray.

this whole post was very hard to read because it makes no sense.  

the discussion is not about whether or not blue-ray is neccesary for all games to fit on a signle disk, the topic is about whether or not blue-ray is truely needed for gaming.  if the biggest inconvenience i have is swapping disks every 15 hours for RPGs, then blue-ray is NOT needed.  quit spinning shit around its getting old.

im not sure about the 5+ layer tech, i never heard of it before twisted mentioned it.  you would pay VERY little for that tech to be in a game console vs having blue-ray or HD-DVD in the system.  you would still get the storage benefit but not being forced to take place in a format war.  

i should read the articles i post!?!?!  Yuichi Ejiri works for sony you dipshit, the writer of the article is not the one who questions if their competing with HD-DVD.  Yuichi Ejiri is the one who said that the ps3's competition is HD-DVD....

QUOTE

The Hong Kong 60GB PS3, priced at HK$3,780 (or $485 US, those lucky bastards), is competition for HD-DVD, or so Ejiri says.

READ before you take the time to type.

QUOTE(bluie @ Dec 1 2006, 03:56 AM)

Wow. The increase from floppy to cd is bigger than the increase from dvd to bluray. Yea that COMPLETELY invalidates my point. Duh. "rollseyes"

And wether the ps3 needs the extra storage or not is actually beside the real point - the point being that the 360 will NEED more storage in a year or so, only because the PS3 already has it. Innovation is rarely NEEDED from the beginning, the need is created by the innovation.
Just like the cd wasnt needed from day one, or the dvd.
I even bet the first 1 meg ram memory wasnt really needed much...

When the first hd-dvd game is produced for the x360 we will see who was blind and who wasnt.. they might even do what the industry does with the pc-games today - release one version on a multi-disk dvd and another on hd-dvd. Anyway, i dont see why not - seems like a smart idea to me.

actually it does invalidate your point, seeing as how the jump was drastic from one medium to the next, the previous medium became obsolete much faster.  again, with the games that we see on the 360 already, we can see DVD9 is just fine.  

so by your reasoning, because the ps3 has the storage so the 360 will need it, the ps2 needed the storage because the xbox had it?  majority of ps2 games are pressed on DVD5 while ALL xbox games are pressed on DVD9.  by your twisted way of thinking the ps2 should really have pressed all of their games on DVD9.  also the gamecube needed more then 1.5GB because both the ps2 and xbox used DVD formats??  this is a huge surprise considering the use of a MUCH smaller format didnt hinder that system at all when most of the games looked better then the ps2 counterpart.  nothing is "needed", its all in your head.

the idea of HD-DVD and DVD games sounds smart to you because your an idiot.  it would NOT be smart business (financially or from a customer's view) and would do more damage then help.  i hope your never in charge of a company or their finished.

you two can spin and twist this all the ways you want but the fact that the gamecube never suffered last generation for having a MUCH smaller medium proves that we didnt "need" DVD for the last gen and that having a smaller medium this gen will play out the same way.  like it was said before by M_hael, "with more space, things dont get better, they just get bigger".

[dvsone]

QUOTE(bluie @ Dec 3 2006, 10:47 AM)

M_hael, "with more space, things dont get better, they just get bigger".

If that quote sums up your beliefs then the rest of your delusional wot is completely obsolete. I just need to read this to confirm that you do not have both your paddles in the water. You still use 640k ram as well?

It seems that you actually think that the xbox had more potential space for games than the ps2 did. But they could both read a dvd9, no? Yes!
The PS2 still has games released on CD, and so does the PC. I'm surprised you didnt use that in your argument somehow, seeing as that is just as invalid a point as the rest of your tripe.

And i'm glad you think the multi-format games are a stupid idea, it probably means its a very good idea (just like gamecompanys developing for pc seems to think) and that it might actually happen in the future. If i own a dvd-player i want a dvd-game and not a multi-cd game. And if i were to own the 360 HD-DVD addon then i'd want my games in that format instead.

I'm pretty happy with MS not including HD-DVD into the console. I don't want one, I don't need one and don't want to pay the extra money for one. I'm fine with Blue Dragon expanding it's game across discs, I really look forward to this title. HD-DVD format isn't needed to make this game a great game. A good story and great game play and graphics will keep me happy.

[dcaway]

call me fanboy, but truely i hate being force-fed this blu ray crap. if you cant fit a $60 game in 9 gigs, you need to reconsider your position as a devloper. i own multipul systems (every console ever made since the orignal nes) less a wii and ps3. (fanboy on) at the end of the day, all i remember is sony bitchin that the poor MS customers would be confused about hdd or no hdd? now if i can just decide if i need all those memory slots on that premium ps3.... (fanboy off) sereiously, the console wars are great for us (the gamers) because it produces better in-house devlopment for each consloe... i will get a ps3 BTW... after i see how well a blu-ray takes a scratched disk... i know the "data pits" gotta be tight for 50 gigs (or whatever size blu ray is).