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[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(lex_luther23 @ Aug 15 2006, 12:00 AM)

No talking to you Your pointless your one of those people who thinks their a know it all. We will see how the console does in november and so on.

No I don't think I know it all.  But I make sure to do some research so I know what Im talking about (thus sounding like I know it all).  Talking to you is pointless too since you're talking more like a whining customer than being interested in making informed opinions and the such.

[lex_luther23]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 14 2006, 07:28 PM)

No I don't think I know it all.  But I make sure to do some research so I know what Im talking about (thus sounding like I know it all).  Talking to you is pointless too since you're talking more like a whining customer than being interested in making informed opinions and the such.

Nothing to whin about rather the system fails or works it's self out i win because i own 360 and a gaming pc and will own ps3.

Your the one whining and fighting and getting agervated at us when we tell you how it is. You need to grow up some

[Kira Yamoto]

lol typical n00b response.  what a way to get out of all eggs in your basket even though you still look like a dumbass writing it while trying to downplay somebody, with insufficient evidence as well as, making up someone's word (whining and complaining? about what? shit I'm praising and defending!!) in order to provide a counter-insult with your own..

there's no whining or complaining here.  I've never downplayed 360.  I've never downplayed PS3 and Wii.  In fact, you and incog were the main downplayers over here.  After all the bullshit talk you're spewing out, you're only saying you're getting a PS3 because you know damn well you're wrong in this thread, and you look like a fucking moron right now and trying to save face.

no idiot can tell me how it is, when they don't even know the difference between a company and a developer is, and who runs the shots and who doesnt.  I need to grow up some? how about you sitting there claiming that I'm whining, complaining, mad, just sitting there putting words in my mouth because you know you're a dumbass and you know yourself that you need to grow up.

you don't even deserve a PS3.

[Tripme]

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you don't even deserve a PS3.

Thats right, only the people who have worked for years on end to save up the $600 deserve a ps3.........

[Kira Yamoto]

note that sony has given us about a year, to 2, to have done so.

[lex_luther23]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 14 2006, 09:48 PM)

lol typical n00b response.  what a way to get out of all eggs in your basket even though you still look like a dumbass writing it while trying to downplay somebody, with insufficient evidence as well as, making up someone's word (whining and complaining? about what? shit I'm praising and defending!!) in order to provide a counter-insult with your own..

there's no whining or complaining here.  I've never downplayed 360.  I've never downplayed PS3 and Wii.  In fact, you and incog were the main downplayers over here.  After all the bullshit talk you're spewing out, you're only saying you're getting a PS3 because you know damn well you're wrong in this thread, and you look like a fucking moron right now and trying to save face.

no idiot can tell me how it is, when they don't even know the difference between a company and a developer is, and who runs the shots and who doesnt.  I need to grow up some? how about you sitting there claiming that I'm whining, complaining, mad, just sitting there putting words in my mouth because you know you're a dumbass and you know yourself that you need to grow up.

you don't even deserve a PS3.

Your mother don't deserve dick but like the whore she is she still gets it  

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(lex_luther23 @ Aug 15 2006, 01:34 PM)

Your mother don't deserve dick but like the whore she is she still gets it  

lol it's degraded to petty insults, in which you instigated, if you even know what that means.  whatever the case, this is my last post to you.  ignored!!

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care, thank god I dont work for you.
I hire 3 developers (nothing to do with gaming industry) and what they think matters to me. I dont want to be in a position to keep having to train new developers up with what we are doing every few months or so. If theres a problem I expect them to be vocal about it.

doing a game and doing another project is totally different.  In any industry, its important to share/voice opinions.  But the opinions (not facts) aren't relevant to what the goals the company has hired you for.  If you tell the company, that something is impossible to code, then its impossible to code.  They'll listen to developers.  

But look at what we're arguing about here.  A developer claiming that they will make company decisions in which they have no control over.  They are NOT CEO's or VP's. And definitely do not have stake in the company's stock. Case in point? Resident Evil 4.  Shinji Mikami wanted Re4 to be exclusive to GC, but GC wasn't raking the money so they yanked it and ported it to PS2.  Shinji Mikami had absolutely ZERO SAY on the matter, because this was a company decision.  They own the game.

To summarize, developers do not run the show you got that?  We're not talking about 3 developers and a lead.  We're talking hundreds of people.  Mind you, these people are all hired to do the project at the same time, not coming along as they go.  Full-scale mass development projects are much different than smaller ones.

The difference between you, lex and I, is that I think from the business perspective and you (not lex he's not that smart) are thinking from the developer perspective.  But I understand the developer perspective as well and I tie it to the business, and it's chain of command.  When it all comes down to it, its all about the company hiring you to do a job and you're expected to do it regardless of how "hard" it is.  As long as its doable, then you're expected to do it.  If it takes you 3 years, then if the company thinks that this will be worth it, then it'll take 3 years (MGS and FF prime example)  How is it that both of you have failed to realize this?

At the very core of it, its just people bitching that they got their work cut out for them.

[Tripme]

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note that sony has given us about a year, to 2, to have done so.

You're only getting that time because sony keeps delaying.  

[incognegro]

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Who the fuck cares about what some oddball developer thinks (yes even the big name ones such as Hideo Kojima, but HK makes good points and he's a varied dev, so hes cool), as history as shown, the company is the one running the show, not the devs. The company pays the developer, so who cares if the developer gets fucked with harder work. That's why they're paying them in the 1st place, and handsomely I might add!!! Seems to me that dev's just wanna bitch and complain because its not easy.

  lol

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you're acting if devs make decisions for companies. devs still have mortages, bills to pay etc, so if they want a job they will do as they're told

holy shit.....lol...you are not playing!

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you don't even deserve a PS3

lmao!!! you are right, he needs a second job (isn't that what ken said!?).....lol

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doing a game and doing another project is totally different

yes cause u know so much about making games.


Umm that, ladies and gentlemen, is whats wrong with gaming today. So if your wondering why more effort isn't put into making good games anymore, let kira tell you. He would tell u how devs should be treated like sweatshop workers and not artists. Then say nobody cares what you think when they speak out.

  Good Job buddy!

I rest my case

[rooter75]

WOW! some one is a little fired up...Kira.  The level of difficulty to program/develop for a console does affect the number, quality and price of games for that console in a smaller way then the installed base for sure but it does affect them.

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(Uradox @ Aug 15 2006, 11:57 PM)

Im not arguing about a developer trying to make company decisions im defending developers in light of your 'fuck them' view.

Its my job to think from a business perspective hence why I have my own business.

my view COMES from the fact that some game developers think they are running the show.  That's what lex's thread was all about (DMC4) and he brought that bullshit in here.  You're completely focused on the part that I said "who cares what some oddball developer thinks" and not the entire perspective

And besides, I'm only bashing the devs that bitch and complain like little bitches.  I don't hear the MGS4 team complaining do they? In fact they were suprised at how easy development was compared to their PS2 days.  Good god you guys still don't understand professionalism.  The difficulty doesnt matter as long as it's doable.  If a company can't do it, they should hire somebody that can.  If they can't then obviously they're losing the people that can to bigger companies that can afford them.  

A developers view on game politics doesnt mean shit (if you really think so you're a fucking moron), only to themselves, which affects their job choices (which is pretty important).  IF they wanted easier development, they can go to Wii or even the 360.  But don't fucking come to PS3 and start bitching about how hard it is when a company is paying you a generous salary.  Being paid WELL negates the complaints.  If they're asking you to do the impossible and working you to death, well thats another story altogether isnt it.

[death trap]

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But look at what we're arguing about here. A developer claiming that they will make company decisions in which they have no control over. They are NOT CEO's or VP's. And definitely do not have stake in the company's stock. Case in point? Resident Evil 4. Shinji Mikami wanted Re4 to be exclusive to GC, but GC wasn't raking the money so they yanked it and ported it to PS2. Shinji Mikami had absolutely ZERO SAY on the matter, because this was a company decision. They own the game.

Your wrong, the games industry does not work in the way you think.  Yes the company will get final say but they are highly unlikely to go against their developers.  Game developers are considered to be talented people, good ones are few and far between.  the reason they get payed a good wage is because its a job that not allot of people as successful in.  if a company has a good development team they will do what ever it takes to hold onto them.  developers vary rarely get sacked, they usually jump ship if they don't like who they work for.  

Imagine this scenario a company forces one of its top development teams to develop a new console project.  The developers disapprove of the project, they say its bad idea for a game and don't want anything to do with it.  The company say do it or else, game developers are now pissed, in fact the probably thinking its time for a new job.  Along comes company B, they tell the developers that there looking to pick up a new development team, they offer them more money, more time off they also tell them a little about an exciting new project they have lined up.  The core of the development team decide to take them up on the offer, the few that remain decide to form their own software house in the hope that someday will someone buy them out and they can retire early.

No Developers = No Games = No Money.  

Now from a business view that would seem like a really dumb thing to do if you want to make money and remain competitive.

[incognegro]

QUOTE(death trap @ Aug 16 2006, 09:47 AM)

Your wrong, the games industry does not work in the way you think.  Yes the company will get final say but they are highly unlikely to go against their developers.  Game developers are considered to be talented people, good ones are few and far between.  the reason they get payed a good wage is because its a job that not allot of people as successful in.  if a company has a good development team they will do what ever it takes to hold onto them.  developers vary rarely get sacked, they usually jump ship if they don't like who they work for.  

Imagine this scenario a company forces one of its top development teams to develop a new console project.  The developers disapprove of the project, they say its bad idea for a game and don't want anything to do with it.  The company say do it or else, game developers are now pissed, in fact the probably thinking its time for a new job.  Along comes company B, they tell the developers that there looking to pick up a new development team, they offer them more money, more time off they also tell them a little about an exciting new project they have lined up.  The core of the development team decide to take them up on the offer, the few that remain decide to form their own software house in the hope that someday will someone buy them out and they can retire early.

No Developers = No Games = No Money.  

Now from a business view that would seem like a really dumb thing to do if you want to make money and remain competitive.

 

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(death trap @ Aug 16 2006, 09:47 AM)

Your wrong, the games industry does not work in the way you think.  Yes the company will get final say but they are highly unlikely to go against their developers.  Game developers are considered to be talented people, good ones are few and far between.  the reason they get payed a good wage is because its a job that not allot of people as successful in.  if a company has a good development team they will do what ever it takes to hold onto them.  developers vary rarely get sacked, they usually jump ship if they don't like who they work for.  

Imagine this scenario a company forces one of its top development teams to develop a new console project.  The developers disapprove of the project, they say its bad idea for a game and don't want anything to do with it.  The company say do it or else, game developers are now pissed, in fact the probably thinking its time for a new job.  Along comes company B, they tell the developers that there looking to pick up a new development team, they offer them more money, more time off they also tell them a little about an exciting new project they have lined up.  The core of the development team decide to take them up on the offer, the few that remain decide to form their own software house in the hope that someday will someone buy them out and they can retire early.

No Developers = No Games = No Money.  

Now from a business view that would seem like a really dumb thing to do if you want to make money and remain competitive.

how are you telling me, that I'm wrong when you just acknowledged that the company gets the final say, which is what the main point was about in the 1st place? It depends on developer.  If we're talking Hideo Kojima, or Miyamoto, then of course the lead developer has a lot of say in the creative control.  

But let's look at the situation you presented.  A shining example of this, is Monolithsoft which were a group of Square personnel.  Square did not intend to make a Xenogears because they felt that it wasn't going to be profitable enough.  Namco didn't think so, and picked them up.  Many years later, we now have Xenosaga I-III and the series has been a financial failure AND the series itself has been cancelled, which was previously due for 6 games.  The team itself are a bunch of talented men and women, but in the end that wasn't enough.

There's also another situation, but not on a negative light.  Hironobu Sakaguchi of SquareEnix used to lead the Final Fanatsy project.  He was the EP for many years running and has since created his own company called Mist Walker and have taken some of the best people from the industry in his country.  Square Enix to this day is still creating quality titles without him (although thats not entirely true, he's still a consultant) and at any day, Square Enix may contract his team to work on a new project.

Just because some of your talent leaves, doesnt mean it's the end.  Final Fantasy XII was a GREAT example that, even without the lead of FF at the helm, the game still turned out excellent thanks to the new development team and their talents.

This is business my man.  Creative talent are dime a dozen.

[incognegro]

so developers are expendable? not valuable to the company?

and you think that there isn't something wrong with that? I mean before this was big business, it was an art form IMO and the more it becomes like big business is the less fun it is. I commend nintendo for respecting the game and the artform. I mean if the ps3 is gonna make the canvas bigger but less fun to paint on then who's gonna put effort into the art anymore?