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[lex_luther23]

Ps2 lie all over again you know the one were ps2 was post to have toy story 2 like graphic's. They claimed ps2 was so much better then dreamcast graphics and that was not the case. Ps3 is not going to have any thing on 360 when its said and done.

This post has been edited by lex_luther23: Aug 24 2006, 02:56 AM

[Kira Yamoto]

QUOTE(lex_luther23 @ Aug 24 2006, 02:26 AM)

Ps2 lie all over again you know the one were ps2 was post to have toy story 2 like graphic's. They claimed ps2 was so much better then dreamcast graphics and that was not the case. Ps3 is not going to have any thing on 360 when its said and done.

#1.  PS2 beat out Dreamcast, and rightfully so, as the games and it's graphics beat out Dreamcast by a long shot.  I can prove through graphics screenshots AND technical specs.  Dreamcast just is not able to produce the same kind of enviornments on PS2.  Shadow of the Colossus would be 3dfx all over again.  That's how bad SotC would look on DC if it ever RAN at all.

http://media.ps2.ign.com/media/736/736896/img_3169267.html
http://media.dreamcast.ign.com/media/010/0...mg_1213338.html

#2.  That's what Xbox-ers said about PS2 and they lost.  Lol, its always about games in the end, and PS brand has always won because they have titles that people have grown to love and enjoy over the years.  There isn't anything to indicate that 360 has already won, that's just fanboyism at talk here.

This post has been edited by Kira Yamoto: Aug 24 2006, 05:02 AM

[Foe-hammer]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Aug 23 2006, 11:37 AM)

 its should be obvious to even the fanboys that they are toning down the graphics immensely.

You'd logically think so, but you'd be surprised of how loyal the sheep are to their shepard (just take a gander at ps3forums.com).

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 23 2006, 09:30 PM)

#1.  PS2 beat out Dreamcast, and rightfully so, as the games and it's graphics beat out Dreamcast by a long shot.  I can prove through graphics screenshots AND technical specs.  Dreamcast just is not able to produce the same kind of enviornments on PS2.  Shadow of the Colossus would be 3dfx all over again.  That's how bad SotC would look on DC if it ever RAN at all.

That is an unfair comparison.  The DC was only around for a little over a year, and did not have the luxury of developers to get familiar with the hardware to make it sing, like devs did with the ps3.  

The first gen DC games kept pace easily with 1st gen ps2 games.  Now that is a better comparison.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Aug 23 2006, 11:30 PM)

#1.  PS2 beat out Dreamcast, and rightfully so, as the games and it's graphics beat out Dreamcast by a long shot.  I can prove through graphics screenshots AND technical specs.  Dreamcast just is not able to produce the same kind of enviornments on PS2.  Shadow of the Colossus would be 3dfx all over again.  That's how bad SotC would look on DC if it ever RAN at all.

http://media.ps2.ign.com/media/736/736896/img_3169267.html
http://media.dreamcast.ign.com/media/010/0...mg_1213338.html

#2.  That's what Xbox-ers said about PS2 and they lost.  Lol, its always about games in the end, and PS brand has always won because they have titles that people have grown to love and enjoy over the years.  There isn't anything to indicate that 360 has already won, that's just fanboyism at talk here.

though pointless i will try to shed some light on to you little lost one....

the only fanboyism talk around here is you sir.  yet again you show how little you know about game development.

first you talk about us "wanna be PC know it alls" judging a system based soley on specs alone when you are doing the same but with far less the level of comprehention and understanding.  

you also compare a launch game on the DC to a game on the ps2 after developers have 6 years of learning and fine tuning with the ps2 hardware.  its a sad fact that the DC was not around long enough reach even close to its full potential.

you are comparing two different standards for each system as well: all DC games ran at 480p with full scene AA which is a HUGE tax on the system while ps2 games run at 480i with no AA what-so-ever. <- believe it or not but that makes a big difference alone.  while sony was cocky and deceiving when announcing the ps2's specs, sega was conservative and realistic when announcing the DC's specs.  sony claimed the ps2 would render around 66 million poly's per second while sega announced that the DC would do 3 million poly's per second, both are way wrong.  games like Test Drive Le Mans has been confirmed to push around 5 million polys on the DC and games like Soul Reaver 2 (which was cancelled on the DC near completion) looked just as good as the ps2 version.  games like shenmue have been rumored (but never confirmed) to push well beyond the 5 million poly mark of the DC.  it is also known that the true poly peak performance of the ps2 (in real world settings) is hovering around 10-12 million polys a second, again under settings less taxing then what the DC handled (lower resolution and no AA for example).  for a better understand on the DC's true power just read this, and dont worry ill post a link that you will dismiss anyways.

QUOTE

The CPU was clearly an important part of the Dreamcast specification, and selection of the device was a lengthy and carefully considered process. Factors considered included performance, cost, power requirements, and delivery schedule. There wasn't an off-the-shelf processor that could meet all requirements, but Hitachi's SH-4 processor, which was still in development, could adapt to deliver the 3D geometry calculation performance necessary. The final form has an internal floating-point unit of 1.4 Gflops, which can calculate the geometry and lighting of more than 10 million polygons per second. Among the features of the SH-4 CPU is the store queue mechanism that helps send polygon data to the rendering engine at close to maximum bus bandwidth.1 The final device is implemented using a 0.25-micron, five-layer-metal process.

The system ASIC combines a PowerVR rendering core with a system bus controller, implemented using a 0.25-micron, five-layer-metal process. Imagination Technologies (formerly VideoLogic) provided the core logical design and Sega supplied the system bus. NEC provided the ASIC design technologies and chip layout, including qualification for 100-MHz operation. Fill rates are a maximum of 3.2 Gpixels per second for scenes comprising purely opaque polygons, falling to 100 million pixels per second when transparent polygons are used at the maximum hardware sort depth of 60. Overall rendering engine throughput is 7 million polygons per second, but in Dreamcast, geometry data storage becomes the limiting factor before pixel engine throughput.

http://www.segatech.com/technical/polygons/index.html

and also the age old question when comparing the two systems:  if the DC was underpowered, then did every DC game look worse on the ps2??...

DC:
(IMG:http://dcmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/crazy/bg61.jpg)
ps2:
(IMG:http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/crazy/crazy_3.jpg)

DC:
(IMG:http://dcmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/doa2j/d21.jpg)
ps2:
(IMG:http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/doa2hardcore/doa2hardcore_2.jpg)

DC:
(IMG:http://dcmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/grandia2/final/bg38.jpg)
ps2:
(IMG:http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/grandia2/grandia_12.jpg)

all pics were from the same site and i tried to get similar shots of both versions for better comparison.

yes the ps2 was a little bit more powerful but then again the DC was able to pull off effects (AA, bump mapping, etc.) that the ps2 could not do.

so please, do research, learn about what you speak of before you rant on while claiming other pull their points out of their ass.

This post has been edited by KAGE360: Aug 24 2006, 10:34 AM

[Foe-hammer]

kage, i think you have the last image comparison backwards because the ps2 image looks better then the DC's, or maybe that is how it's supposed to be.

You do bring up a good point, all DC games supported 480p and AA.  The ps2, on the other hand, still struggles to this day to support 480p (FFXII is only 480i 4:3).

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Aug 24 2006, 03:03 AM)

.... it is also known that the true poly peak performance of the ps2 (in real world settings) is hovering around 10-12 million polys a second....

Actually, the ps2's 'real world' (with all effects added) poly/sec is 6-9 mill

DC: 3-5 mill

GC: 10-12 mill

xbox: 18-20 mill


Nintendo was the only honest one with their figures.

This post has been edited by Foe-hammer: Aug 24 2006, 11:01 AM

[Mojiba]

I predict: Kira will come with PR screenshots (usually from IGN) from PS2 games taken from dev stations that do not represent what the real game, running in a real PS2 sold to costumers, looks like =)

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Foe-hammer @ Aug 24 2006, 05:32 AM)

kage, i think you have the last image comparison backwards because the ps2 image looks better then the DC's, or maybe that is how it's supposed to be.

You do bring up a good point, all DC games supported 480p and AA.  The ps2, on the other hand, still struggles to this day to support 480p (FFXII is only 480i 4:3).
Actually, the ps2's 'real world' (with all effects added) poly/sec is 6-9 mill

DC: 3-5 mill

GC: 10-12 mill

xbox: 18-20 mill
Nintendo was the only honest one with their figures.

well it would seem that it is hard to take a good DC pic because of the AA as i noticed it as well.  i was tempted to provide a quote from the review where even the ps2 reviewer states that the graphics have been downgraded from the DC version but figured that someone with as much commen sense as Kira    would understand that its the pic making the game look blurry.  

i still question your figure for the DC poly pushing performance though.  like i said before it was reported that shemnue 1 and most certaintly 2 push more polys then any other DC game out there as it looks as good as most ps2 games.  plus the quote i posted shows that the CPU/GPU are capable of more then 5 million polys.  the point i was trying to make of it all is that if a game was programmed for both the ps2 and DC on even playing field (lets say 480i and AA turned off on the DC) then they would be about even with maybe the ps2 having better/faster framerates.  the figures are already close with the DC running AA which we both know taxes a system greatly.

[incognegro]

I thought the mgs trailer looked better than last years and I thought it was amazing personally. The details and cinematics were on point as usualy with hideo but I still wont buy it.....lol

I rent movies I dont buy them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

anyways kira, the thing that I cant understand about u is that you claim that you have interests in all the systems yet the only one that your really educated on is the sony products. Now im not saying ur fanboy but if u keep saying stupid stuff like the dvd9 thing and the dreamcast vs. ps3 thing that you just said then ur credibility is just gonna get lower and lower. I knew Kage was gonna murder u for that one so I didnt say anything but common, comparing DC games to ps2, u shouldve known u were gonna get served. The DC has no jaggies (a first) and the resolution of the games are higher than most ps2 games. The DC was a great piece of hardware. Any game that was on the DC and ported to any other system (yes, including xbox) almost always look better on DC. Just look at capcom fighting games.

Oh dont forget, Soul calibur looked way better Tekken tag. They are both launch titles and from the same company.

This post has been edited by incognegro: Aug 24 2006, 02:46 PM

[Deftech]

I see there is a new bug to squash. If you fellas dont have it handled by the time I return full-time in November, I'll take over

[incognegro]

QUOTE(Deftech @ Aug 24 2006, 02:22 PM)

I see there is a new bug to squash. If you fellas dont have it handled by the time I return full-time in November, I'll take over

LMAO

[DragoNs]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Aug 24 2006, 05:03 AM)

and also the age old question when comparing the two systems:  if the DC was underpowered, then did every DC game look worse on the ps2??...

Actually your last picture you posted is quite false if you had actually played the real game, the PS2 version of Grandia 2 looks better when playing the game, ive played both, own both, PS2 version looks better IRL.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(Deftech @ Aug 24 2006, 09:22 AM)

I see there is a new bug to squash. If you fellas dont have it handled by the time I return full-time in November, I'll take over

your help is greatly missed.  its not the same fending off the sony zombies without you around  

QUOTE(DragoNs @ Aug 24 2006, 10:04 AM)

Actually your last picture you posted is quite false if you had actually played the real game, the PS2 version of Grandia 2 looks better when playing the game, ive played both, own both, PS2 version looks better IRL.

well then your more blind/biased then i thought.  i own the DC version while my brother owns the ps2 version and it is clearly a degration in graphics.  like i said each pic is from the right platform and i tried the best to make the closest comparison.  the DC version did not have jaggies, washed out colors, or ugly meshed textures like the ps2 version does.  maybe its the TV your playing on or the cables your using but i will bet you that you wont find one review that agrees with you on that opinion.  for good reason because its not true, its not an opinion that it looks better on the DC its a fact.  its hard to argue with texture details and such

[DragoNs]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Aug 24 2006, 10:32 AM)

well then your more blind/biased then i thought.  i own the DC version while my brother owns the ps2 version and it is clearly a degration in graphics.  like i said each pic is from the right platform and i tried the best to make the closest comparison.  the DC version did not have jaggies, washed out colors, or ugly meshed textures like the ps2 version does.  maybe its the TV your playing on or the cables your using but i will bet you that you wont find one review that agrees with you on that opinion.  for good reason because its not true, its not an opinion that it looks better on the DC its a fact.  its hard to argue with texture details and such

Considering its a direct copy of the game its not like they are downgrading the graphics to play on a system with more capabilities. I personally think it looks better on the PS2, but hey, what can i get you to think, you agenst anything that says Sony on it, why would i bother arguing with you, oh and lets all remember which system got the kick-ass Grandia 3.

This post has been edited by DragoNs: Aug 24 2006, 04:06 PM

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(DragoNs @ Aug 24 2006, 10:37 AM)

Considering its a direct copy of the game its not like they are downgrading the graphics to play on a system with more capabilities. I personally think it looks better on the PS2, but hey, what can i get you to think, you agenst anything that says Sony on it, why would i bother arguing with you, oh and lets all remember which system got the kick-ass Grandia 3.

i may not care for sony as a company but that does not mean i am biased to deny or ignore any merits the consoles have.  what i am saying is that its not just my opinion, its a fact, that the graphics were toned down for the ps2 version.  yes they did not intend on downgrading the graphics to play on a different system it was just the result of inherent design.  the biggest hit, and you will see this repeated with every article/review, is the texture detail.  with half of the video memory, its to be expected and this is what makes it fact and not just my opinion because grandia 2 used the DC's texture power to great effect.  

the point of me comparing the DC and ps2 was to prove that the ps2 does not in fact have more "capabilities".  it does however have more speed, but capabilities it does not.  like i stated before, the DC can do many things that the ps2 just cant (AA and bump mapping for example) would lead most to think that the DC had a wider range of capabitlities then the ps2.  

of course grandia 3 was on the ps2, that point is meaningless as the DC was long dead when that game was launched.  to also go along with that though, the horrible grandia extreme also appeared on the ps2 as well.

[Reaper527]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Aug 24 2006, 10:32 AM)

your help is greatly missed.  its not the same fending off the sony zombies without you around  

we definately could use a zombie slayer, theres an undead army