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[hamwbone]

QUOTE(HOUSECAT @ Mar 6 2008, 06:41 AM)

Any intelligible person knows that deep down.  

Quoth the ignorant man.

[crackfeen]

QUOTE(hamwbone @ Mar 6 2008, 05:16 PM)

Quoth the ignorant man.

lol you don't understand.. if deep down inside you don't know.. then obviously you're not intelligible enough

[hamwbone]

QUOTE(crackfeen @ Mar 6 2008, 04:34 PM)

lol you don't understand.. if deep down inside you don't know.. then obviously you're not intelligible enough

haha, some people  

[lostboyz]

QUOTE(crackfeen @ Mar 6 2008, 05:10 PM)

god is dead was one of nietzche's most popular quotes so i found it funny that you said that and were followed up by roughly his philosophical perspective
and i never read slaughterhouse 5.. so you're gonna have to elaborate a little bit

that second quote is not nietzche, i forget who it was but it was in my psych book, how two differing theories arent necessarily mutually exclusive.

slaughterhouse 5 is an amazing book so go ahead and read it. The premise is this guy is abducted by aliens who live in the 5th dimension basically they not only travel in our three dimensions but are free to move about in time. Basically history exists and they can relive any point in their lives. Death is not the end its merely the understanding of this logic.

Great part of the book is when it originally came out 50 or so years ago on the book it says from the bestseller of Hocus Pocus. At that point in time he had not written a book called Hocus Pocus, but at one point did write it, and it was a best seller. Somewhat reaffirmed his own philosophy through an elaborate joke.

[crackfeen]

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Mar 6 2008, 07:00 PM)

that second quote is not nietzche, i forget who it was but it was in my psych book, how two differing theories arent necessarily mutually exclusive.

slaughterhouse 5 is an amazing book so go ahead and read it. The premise is this guy is abducted by aliens who live in the 5th dimension basically they not only travel in our three dimensions but are free to move about in time. Basically history exists and they can relive any point in their lives. Death is not the end its merely the understanding of this logic.

Great part of the book is when it originally came out 50 or so years ago on the book it says from the bestseller of Hocus Pocus. At that point in time he had not written a book called Hocus Pocus, but at one point did write it, and it was a best seller. Somewhat reaffirmed his own philosophy through an elaborate joke.

i was just talking about the first quote. i don't know the second one.. but i'll make sure to check it out.. i've read a couple things by vonnegut... he's a very out there writer

[StrictPuppet]

QUOTE(hamwbone @ Mar 6 2008, 03:06 PM)

haha, some people  

word

[HOUSECAT]

I wish I couldn't think for myself, and be stupid like everyone else who believes in god and the bible. Cause growing up I did believe in this crap. It was because my parents and peers around me, took me to church every Sunday and I went to CCD (CHURCH SCHOOL) for 8 years.  The bible explains everything if your stupid!! Of course your going to believe it when your stupid and think society minded.

But then when I turned 18 (Last year) I started thinking independently and realized...Ok god said let their be light and their was light....But their is also a sun and when our side of the earth is facing towards the giant ball of fire we see light....lol.... it's so simple.

Ok this bible i'm reading is man made it's paper and it was wrote in language...Well if you look at language it was something that developed overtime with evolution...cavemen used to grunt at eachother to try and communicate and eventually language developed over time.  

Were born in a world with our minds pretty much pre-programmed from the people around us...Like language you don't remember being 1 yrs old and starting to talk. Religion is sort of the same kind of concept you just were brought up to believe and everyone around you believes.  And to me only the intelligent ones are able to break away from this. Like me.  The rest of the world are just robot's and slaves.

[crackfeen]

holy hell man.. grammar and spelling are your friends.
honestly, you're blindly describing your own upbringing. by far, not everyone learned to be christian or catholic, or any other religion for that matter. the fact that there are multiple religions around goes against your argument that you just do what you're taught.
more importantly, some of the most devout religious figures have historically been converts from either atheism or another religion
on a lighter note, i'm glad that at your old ripe age of 18 you figured out that god didn't in fact go "click" or get himself a clapper.. but the whole point is where did the sun come from... aside from the few hardcore radicals people don't take the bible literally, (honestly i don't think you were ever supposed to). the "let there be light" is more an indication that an all mighty god created the sun and the earth and all our playsets and toys.
also.. what right do you have calling religious people stupid or robots or slaves or anything condescending? the fact that you're having a pubescent rebellion against things you've been doing all your life simply means that you're finally growing up /cheer but in no way does it make you any better than all those people who have contemplated it, and decided to stick with it for one reason or another

[HOUSECAT]

QUOTE(crackfeen @ Mar 10 2008, 08:37 PM)

holy hell man.. grammar and spelling are your friends.

I thought I sounded pretty clear on the grammar and spelling. Where does it sound messed up?

QUOTE(crackfeen @ Mar 10 2008, 08:37 PM)

honestly, you're blindly describing your own upbringing. by far, not everyone learned to be christian or catholic, or any other religion for that matter. the fact that there are multiple religions around goes against your argument that you just do what you're taught.
more importantly, some of the most devout religious figures have historically been converts from either atheism or another religion
on a lighter note, i'm glad that at your old ripe age of 18 you figured out that god didn't in fact go "click" or get himself a clapper.. but the whole point is where did the sun come from... aside from the few hardcore radicals people don't take the bible literally, (honestly i don't think you were ever supposed to). the "let there be light" is more an indication that an all mighty god created the sun and the earth and all our playsets and toys.
also.. what right do you have calling religious people stupid or robots or slaves or anything condescending? the fact that you're having a pubescent rebellion against things you've been doing all your life simply means that you're finally growing up /cheer but in no way does it make you any better than all those people who have contemplated it, and decided to stick with it for one reason or another

Growing up? I'm going to be 20 years old in a month!!! I went threw puberty like 8 years ago lol.  It's not rebellion trust me. It's more depression....everything thing seems meaningless and pointless knowing when you die your gonna be nothing... so why even try in life ya know. ..when in the end nothing matters. One day your here the next day your gone...ain't nobody here to stay...everything means nothing. I'm on that type a shit right now and can't get it out my head maybe it's just a stage in life where at my age you become obsessed with pondering LIFE AND DEATH??? Maybe it was those bad shrooms I ate....or the 3 hits of acid I took at a phish concert  lol  What happened too me?? ahhhhhh  

[lostboyz]

wow emo much?

why do people who believe in god have to be stupid sheep? Whatever it takes for people to respect one another, whether its your own morals or trying to get to heaven, who cares?

They are all devices to help us lead our lives, if you can do that on your own great, no reason to be angry about it. Did you bitch this much when you found out santa was your parents? Did you go to grade schools telling the kids they were mindless sheep?

[StrictPuppet]

QUOTE(lostboyz @ Mar 11 2008, 01:47 PM)

Did you bitch this much when you found out santa was your parents?

LIES!!!!  

[crackfeen]

QUOTE(StrictPuppet @ Mar 11 2008, 05:16 PM)

LIES!!!!  

don't worry little buddy.. not your parents... other parents... kitty's parents over there

QUOTE

everything thing seems meaningless and pointless knowing when you die your gonna be nothing... so why even try in life ya know

then how are you any better off knowing this instead of believing in a heaven? at least there you have something to look forward to... also there's reincarnation and all that good stuff
simply put you don't know.. i don't know... you cannot prove or disprove it. if you wanna be depressed about knowing you're gonna die pointlessly, do something with your life while you still have time.. personally i find it motivating. also the lack of a heaven pretty much gives me the freedom to do anything i want without long term repercussions. incidentally, this is another reason they invented the idea of hell..

[damam]

QUOTE(gronned @ Mar 1 2008, 05:25 PM)

As you say, it's easy to logically disprove all religions, but I would claim it's fairly easy to logically disprove a god as well using rational arguments. Dawkins has very good rational arguments for it's non-existence in "The God delusion", which I recommend everyone to read. Russel's teapot is an interesting argument that's included in the book. It does in no way prove there is no god, but it's a rational argument for it's non-existence.

Whether a deity exists or not, is simply a yes or no-question, but with rational arguments the possibility of a yes as the answer is VERY slim.

its hard to read about scientists justifying the usurpation of science.  Although given the state of science at the moment, I cant say I am suprised.  The arguement that because something cant be disproven at the moment means that it does or does not exist is blatantly absurd.  The only thing that it means is that the question cannot be answered at this time.  The rest of the "rational arguments" are merely a facade to skirt the problem of not having an answer.  So in the end it is faith.  Faith on the side of Dawkins that g-d does not exist, and faith on the side of the religious person that g-d does exist.  Kind of an ironic predicament that dawkins finds himself in.

A side note: Dawkins seems overly concerned about the transgressions of organized religion to which there are many, and indifferent about the transgressions of science to which there are many.  After all, "rational arguments" and sound sceince have never resulted in anything horrific *cough*holocaust*cough*.  I really wonder what he is trying to accomplish.  Does he really want morality, science, and the ability to move the masses all centrally controlled?  Weve already seen that nightmare.

[gronned]

QUOTE(damam @ Mar 12 2008, 09:54 PM)

its hard to read about scientists justifying the usurpation of science.  Although given the state of science at the moment, I cant say I am suprised.  The arguement that because something cant be disproven at the moment means that it does or does not exist is blatantly absurd.  The only thing that it means is that the question cannot be answered at this time.  The rest of the "rational arguments" are merely a facade to skirt the problem of not having an answer.  So in the end it is faith.  Faith on the side of Dawkins that g-d does not exist, and faith on the side of the religious person that g-d does exist.  Kind of an ironic predicament that dawkins finds himself in.

A side note: Dawkins seems overly concerned about the transgressions of organized religion to which there are many, and indifferent about the transgressions of science to which there are many.  After all, "rational arguments" and sound sceince have never resulted in anything horrific *cough*holocaust*cough*.  I really wonder what he is trying to accomplish.  Does he really want morality, science, and the ability to move the masses all centrally controlled?  Weve already seen that nightmare.

It's the theists job to find proof for what they believe in, not the atheists job to disprove what they don't believe in. In all fairness, we are right until you can prove us wrong. Despite thousands of years of belief in various gods, there hasn't been a shred of evidence for any of them. The only way I can reasonably see this change would be if god shows herself, otherwise it will be hard(impossible?) for atheists to ever disprove her. Until she's somehow been proven, I cannot really understand how so many theists can hate us and some even want to kill us. It's only reasonable not to believe in what hasn't been proven, right?

No, you're right(even if you're ironic), the arguments for the holocaust were not rational and that's the core when people try to argue that atheism is the cause of the greatest genocides, because it has nothing to do with atheism. As Dawkins and the others say, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot etcetera never committed their atrocities for the sake of atheism, but only for the sake of irrational arguments which had nothing to do with atheism.

We have however seen other great atrocities being made specifically in the name of various gods. And even Hitler is controversial as many view him as a christian(even if I'm not too sure myself).

What do you mean by "centrally controlled"? Please elaborate. My country is the most atheist in the world and we have far less criminality than most other countries. According to most theists, we should be shooting each others on the open street. Please compare us with USA. Now, however, we've received an extreme amount of immigrants(virtually all because of USA), who apart from being poor have brought their religion here, and criminality has since gone up badly.

As much as I hate to say it, your belief is of my concern. I don't want to be killed in the name of some unproven God. And frankly, I believe there's a great chance I will.

[gronned]

I also want to discuss dogmatism where I feel it's the reason people won't overcome irrational ideas. I will accuse myself guilty of being it myself in many aspects. When I was a nazi I was fairly dogmatic, however I wasn't very challenged so I can't say I was completely immune to arguments. When I later on changed my mind, probably it had do with my friendship with a black guy I switched to communism which in many peoples mind is the opposite of nazism(in many aspects I find them very similar). As a communist however, I was very dogmatic, and generally I dismissed every rational argument as false and I was convinced so was the case. I'm not positively sure why I left it, I can only guess there were several factors that eventually allowed me to seriously look at the rational arguments against it. Anyway, I've since long completely abandoned it, and today I don't really embrace any ideology at all, probably because of my exceptionally dogmatic, and obviously false, past.

The purpose of a debate rarely is, but should be, about challenging your own belief and/or learning what you didn't know about. Most(?) people, myself still sometimes, start a debate in order to prove others wrong and are not open to being questioned. This is a very bad approach if you want to develop yourself.

I may seem dogmatic in my atheism, and as of now, I definitely want people to let go of their beliefs as I find them dangerous and above all false. But I wouldn't say I am very dogmatic in my atheism, because I am listening to the other sides arguments, but I truly don't feel like I'm a bit challenged in why there should be a god. I don't know what started the big bang for example(if it ever was), but because I don't know, doesn't in any way imply that it should have been a god of any kind.

I'm not accusing anyone in particular, because dogmatism goes for all sides of any kind of debate, but I want to remind everyone about it, as it's not very progressive for anybody to be it. May sound pathetic, but once in a while I actually ask myself whether I'm counter-arguing somebody only for the sake of showing myself right, or if I really shouldn't try to truly ponder what she/he's been saying.