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[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Oct 19 2006, 03:44 PM)

Let me see, the links about the stories in the news Web sites are FALSE, or didn't meet your 'information' criteria. Your willy nilly ramblings are TRUE, until I have proven otherwise.

I have a question for you: Why are you a Moron? Maybe you can disprove it.

Oh I posted the wrong link about the Evangelical Christian Leaders.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15322221/

 

Well seriously, your childish name-calling is growing tiresome. That coupled with your radically out of whack opinions are why you're widely known in this forum as loony tunes. Don't think that's something coming from me. Ask anyone.

 

Links to stories on news sites are not false. I never said that. I said that a link to someone's opinion, even though it may be contained in a news article does not make their opinion false. I don't know why that is so hard for you to comprehend. It is THE VERY SAME as if you simply made that claim. It's opinion no matter who said it or where they said it.

 

If you say something that is false I have to point out where you were wrong. If you concede that because you know you're wrong ok. If you want to continue with your falsehood I must provide evidence. That is how an argument works. It works both ways whether it's you or it's me. This is part of an adult conversation. You're going to have to learn this if you want to have discussions with adults.

[pug_ster]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Oct 19 2006, 11:19 PM)

Well seriously, your childish name-calling is growing tiresome. That coupled with your radically out of whack opinions are why you're widely known in this forum as loony tunes. Don't think that's something coming from me. Ask anyone.

I don't call you names without a reason, because you are a moron.

QUOTE

Links to stories on news sites are not false. I never said that. I said that a link to someone's opinion, even though it may be contained in a news article does not make their opinion false. I don't know why that is so hard for you to comprehend. It is THE VERY SAME as if you simply made that claim. It's opinion no matter who said it or where they said it.

If you have bother to go to the link and saw the video:

http://www.cbsnews.c...in2089778.shtml

That guy went to a Christian convention where 'the poor' wasn't considered a priority, instead they follow Republican agendas.  Also if you had looked in the 2nd article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15322221/

It also says that 2 Evangelical Christians Leaders wants to 'broaden' their priority that is not coincide with the Republican agenda.

You are either blind or you are a moron for not seeing that.

So far, you haven't provide any counterargument about that, which was the main theme of the discussion.

QUOTE

If you say something that is false I have to point out where you were wrong. If you concede that because you know you're wrong ok. If you want to continue with your falsehood I must provide evidence. That is how an argument works. It works both ways whether it's you or it's me. This is part of an adult conversation. You're going to have to learn this if you want to have discussions with adults.

I call you a moron because you talk like an 10 year old with an 'it is not true' excuse.  Now be an adult and provide a half decent counterargument and provide some concrete proof.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Oct 19 2006, 07:11 PM)

I don't call you names without a reason, because you are a moron.

You DO have a reason to call me names. It's not because I'm a moron though, because clearly that's not the case. It's that you're frustrated because you have no basis for your arguments. You put opinions forward as fact and then get called on it and get mad. I could post links to Rush Limbaugh's opinions and I'm sure you'd see my point.

QUOTE

If you have bother to go to the link and saw the video:

http://www.cbsnews.c...in2089778.shtml

That guy went to a Christian convention where 'the poor' wasn't considered a priority, instead they follow Republican agendas. Also if you had looked in the 2nd article:

I went to the damn link. The reason I didn't argue that link is this, Since it's opinion there is no counter argument based on facts. You have to use logic, which you clearly do not posess so I am wasting my time. If you want the argument then that's fine but I can already tell where you're going to go with this because it simply makes too much sense for you.

The guy is pissed because his group was promised $8 billion dollars from the government and then the war started and that money was no longer available in the budget. He takes 60 minutes to his convention and there are no booths for the poor. There probably was no booths for the mentally handicapped or people with cancer or people waiting on donor organs for transplants either, but he doesn't care. He only cares about his issue... slander. Of course there's not a booth for the poor, they are there for the controversial issues. A convention is not a rally where everyone meets up and goes out and starts helping. It is showing what you stand for or have to offer and get like-minded people to side with you. There is nobody who is against helping the poor, so it would be useless. Plus conservatives have a different way of helping the poor. Their way is to put them to work, not to give them things and buy their vote but keep them poor that much longer .

QUOTE

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15322221/

It also says that 2 Evangelical Christians Leaders wants to 'broaden' their priority that is not coincide with the Republican agenda.

You are either blind or you are a moron for not seeing that.

So far, you haven't provide any counterargument about that, which was the main theme of the discussion.

I saw it. Again, since you posted opinions I can't provide facts to argue but only logic. That's why I avoided this one too and tried (obviously failed) to tell you this, but you were not able to perceive. I have no reason to argue this one either because even if you take it at face value.... it's ok with me, but I will give you my initial thoughts just so you have something to stir about. Nothing controversial there. If you believe in God, you do not do or say things so others praise you. (Such as these gentlemen coming out and saying "we are so faithful to our religion that we denounce our evil party and we're going to do so much good now because of it") You stay humble and simply help people because you know your reward does not come from those that you help, but the one that sees it in secret. These guys denouncing their so-called political party is obviously politically motivated because it is faithfully hypocritical. That was my initial thought. Now after hearing it and not being a republican, I don't really care. Whatever they feel is best for their faith is fine with me.

QUOTE

I call you a moron because you talk like an 10 year old with an 'it is not true' excuse. Now be an adult and provide a half decent counterargument and provide some concrete proof.

Again with the childish putdowns. You have made all these claims about me but the fact is, you have not given one example where I've spoken as a 10 year old. If you would like all the people that read these threads to post their opinion of you then please do so. It's not just me. You don't need to attack me to defend yourself. We can all see it. Why can't you?

[pug_ster]

Your endless ramblings about nothing other than this subject is not proof.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Oct 20 2006, 10:17 AM)

Your endless ramblings about nothing other than this subject is not proof.

 

.... and yet YOU yourself have provided no proof. So here we are, in a stalemate of proof. We're down to using nothing but logic to get to the bottom of things. My statements that you cannot comprehend (clearly discerned from your "endless ramblings" comment) cannot be refuted by you and you make no counter-argument which is the same as a concession. Good show. Btw, what country are you from?

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Oct 20 2006, 11:24 AM)

Opinions are not proof.


 

 

That is precisely what I have been saying to puggy. The links he posted are people's opinions, so at the end of the day, they mean nothing.

[pug_ster]

To you, mainstream news that does not agree with you are opinions.  You're hopeless.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Oct 20 2006, 10:39 PM)

To you, mainstream news that does not agree with you are opinions. You're hopeless.

 

No, just because someone's opinion makes mainstream news, does not make it factual. YOU are hopeless.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(miggidy @ Oct 24 2006, 01:29 PM)

I caught David Kuo on Real Time with Bill Maher this past Friday, and I couldn't agree more with what he had to say. It's basically the same thing I've been telling my so-called "Christian" friends for a very long time now. Yeshua said that you cannot serve two Masters!
You cannot serve God while at the same time you serve man. Sooner or later you are going to betray God.
As is the case with Bush.
But unlike Kuo, I don't believe "Dubya" has EVER been Christian.
He simply doesn't bear the fruit of a Follower of the Way, never has.

So it irritates the life out of me when so-called Christians cling on to Bush as if he's their new Savior.
What's even more remarkable is the fact that Yeshua warned his followers that there would be people like George Bush, Pat Roberston, Bill O'Reily, etc who will fool many. Wolves in sheep's clothing, look it up....
Kuo is right, American Christians are very ignorant. Bush didn't have to show anything, all he had was his word and that was good enough for wacky evangelicals to throw their money at him....

"Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's" said Yeshua AKA Jesus.
It is very important to seperate faith from politics....

I prefer not to judge the aforementioned individuals, but for everything else you say I agree except where you speak of seperating faith from politics. I see that as hypocritical based on your statements. How can one serve only one master but seperate faith from politics? They both directly effect us and sooner or later we will betray God if we are serving our political agenda unless God is our political agenda.



The Bible could mean anything by a wolf in sheeps clothing. Jesus speaks of wars fought over his word and that they were false. Never once did Bush bring Christianity into the war on terror. Usama uses his religion as an excuse to kill us in this country no matter what religion we are. He says he gives us a chance to convert. Out of the 3000 in the WTC or the 3000 soldiers in Iraq or the men on the USS coal I bet one of them was Muslim. He says God tells him to do this. THAT is a wolf in sheep's clothing if you ask me. Is it forgiveness that tells us not to protect ourselves from people who have proven they want to kill us, or is it stupidity?

 

Why are American Christians ignorant? Why do you have to be ignorant to support someone who is against abortion? Jesus tells us that it is the little ones whose angels see God's face and that for anyone that is a stumbling block it will have been more tolerable in the land of Soddom and Gomorrah than for them. I guess what I'm getting at, is what give you the right to make these claims? What gives you the right to judge someone and say that they are not and have never been a Christian? Why then are you able to deviate from Jesus' teaching for what you think is necessary at the time but yet Bush is not?

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(miggidy @ Oct 24 2006, 05:59 PM)

Read the scriptures (the "wolves in sheep's clothing" is kindergarten material by theological standards).
I'm not passing judgement on them, Yeshua simply said that you judge a tree by its fruit.
Judgement within the context of condemnation is only in God's hands.

The answer to your first question is found in the gospels.
What is your duty as a Follower of the Way?
Your duty is not in politics, public office is none of your concern.
I'm not saying abandon politics altogether, by all means reach out to your representatives.
Vote, etc.... But serve your God.
It is very simple actually.
How can a so-called Christian serve public demand when it goes against God's will?
Tell me.... Dubya as an example, he leads a campaign to kill innocent people in the process of killing one "evil" enemy and his followers. Read the story of Soddom and Gamorah in the Old Testament and tell me how these actions don't contradict God's message?
Like I told a Christian friend of mine, as a leader you are going to face situations that put you head on against God's will. So what do you do he asks, you leave those decisions for politicians is what I told him.
A Christian's duty is to spread the Word, and not to tarnish it.
Which brings us to the Robertson's, O'Reily's, and Hannity's. That is exactly what they are doing.
People like them were warned in the openning pages of the book of Revelation. It's a stern warning to lukewarm Christians because their actions hinder God's plan.
With their pimping of Bush's agenda in the media, they have mislead millions of American Christians.
(This is another warning found in the book of Matthew regarding leading God's children into sin)
In essence these guys are putting dirt on the Word, together with Pope benedicts recent comments.
Their actions are pushing people away from the Word, which is the opposite of their duty as Christians.

Now you compare Bush with Bin Laden, these guys are very similar.
Osama says he's a man of God but yet is willing to violate even the teachings of the Qur'an which prohibit him from killing women and children, as well as defensless enemies.
Osama openly says he's a Muslim.
Bush openly says he's a Christian and even admitted on camera that his war on terror is a crusade.
So that pretty much kills your argument that Bush never mentioned God in his war on terror.
The mere fact that he says he's Christian is damaging enough. The rest of the world actually believes that this guy is Christian. Never mind that his policies go totally against the teachings of Christ.
Ignorant people don't care. Again, this does nothing but tarnish the teachings of Christ in the eyes of outsiders....



To be fair, humans are ignorant by nature. (again read the scriptures, don't point the finger at me)
Ignorance isn't exclusive to American Christians.
But do know that according to Revelation, a person exposed to the light will face harsher judgement.
And America is full of "cafeteria Christians".
I feel sorry for you if you cannot see this, chances are you're one of them.
Your typical American Christian is pro life, but also pro capitol punishment.
Pat Robertson's on TV trying to convince his viewers that capitol punishment is ok by pulling scripture out of context. He ignores what YHWH said to Abraham before he destroyed Soddom and Gamorrah.
Very much in the way that many Christians ignore the very same passage you just posted when they support abortion.
Tell me that there isn't something wrong with America's Christians?
The serpent's gaining political strength with their support, in many ways they are one of its biggest contributors....

It's a shame....
But hey, it's all in the scriptures.
According to them, the Church is to become an apostate.
I'm not surprised....
I'm just sad for their souls....

 

Again, I agree and with many of your views and respect them all. You are clearly wrong on judging someone by their fruits. You are never to judge. Do you remember "If you judge you will have a judge"?. Your judgements on Bush are also misguided. If someone kills your child and vows to kill the rest of your family and you do nothing and your family gets killed, did you not kill them? The answer is yes you did and even if you argue that you did not you cared more about your own salvation than your family. Are you equally as wrong to kill your enemy in prevention? Yes. There is no clear choice which is right, unless you are to protect your good fruit. You are saying the same thing with the abortion/capitol punishment argument. The difference is, nobody is FOR killing anyone. Thus the abortion stance. When someone proves that they are not fit to live in society do we ignore that and allow them to remain there to kill again? Who are you calling ignorant? I'll tell you what, you tell me where you live and I'll lobby to send our killers over to live with you since you embrace them.

 

I would have to ask you to provide the entire quote of Bush saying the way is a "Crusade" so that I may see it and also see it in context. I believe this is slander as not even the hardcore liberals in the U.S. say this. I would also disagree that his policies go against the teachings of Christ.

 

Bottom line, if you think you can just ignore problems and still be a Christian you're dead wrong. Ignorance is not bliss. You've called my county's Christians ignorant but suggested they ignore all the tough decisions. THAT is the definition of ignorant. Politics and Faith are directly related. You cannot seperate them. A house divided against itself cannot stand. The problem is that people in politics have sold their souls for politics. If faith were restored there, you would have a different world.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Oct 25 2006, 06:37 AM)

Yes...a world based on the word of God, a world so bitter and twisted that any minor offense may cost you your life or a body part. It's clear to see that religion and politics must remain seperate entity's otherwise we will end up like (example) Saudi Arabia where the teachings of (example) Christianity is swiftly met with execution or serious time inside.

There is a time and a place for religion in our society's but it should not tarnish our decision making when it comes down to making or changing policy. Bush is only using religion for his own personnal adgenda because it secure's him a core vote in the US. If it was not for his christian supporters they guy would not have been elected for office.

Politics + religion = Take a look at the mess we are making in the middle east

 

That's not even close to true. The whole argument by the other guy was that Christians are supposed to forgive and not bring violence no matter what and respect other people's views. A world based on God would bring morality back. That is what this is all about. Can you seperate God(morality) from politics? Can you as a politician make evil judgements but then sleep at night thinking you're a Christian? No of course not. That is why the previous poster claimed he didn't think Bush was ever a Christian. (He didn't think about the choice Bush had to make before he spoke though.) Christians wouldn't ever execute anyone for not being a Christian.

 

Morality could never "tarnish" decision making. Immorality can, you have it backwards.

 

You have your history wrong. We are not making a mess in the middle east. It has been a mess for centuries. We merely got involved and now you're aware of it.

[pug_ster]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Oct 25 2006, 12:28 AM)

Again, I agree and with many of your views and respect them all. You are clearly wrong on judging someone by their fruits. You are never to judge. Do you remember "If you judge you will have a judge"?. Your judgements on Bush are also misguided. If someone kills your child and vows to kill the rest of your family and you do nothing and your family gets killed, did you not kill them? The answer is yes you did and even if you argue that you did not you cared more about your own salvation than your family. Are you equally as wrong to kill your enemy in prevention? Yes. There is no clear choice which is right, unless you are to protect your good fruit. You are saying the same thing with the abortion/capitol punishment argument. The difference is, nobody is FOR killing anyone. Thus the abortion stance. When someone proves that they are not fit to live in society do we ignore that and allow them to remain there to kill again? Who are you calling ignorant? I'll tell you what, you tell me where you live and I'll lobby to send our killers over to live with you since you embrace them.

I would have to ask you to provide the entire quote of Bush saying the way is a "Crusade" so that I may see it and also see it in context. I believe this is slander as not even the hardcore liberals in the U.S. say this. I would also disagree that his policies go against the teachings of Christ.

Bottom line, if you think you can just ignore problems and still be a Christian you're dead wrong. Ignorance is not bliss. You've called my county's Christians ignorant but suggested they ignore all the tough decisions. THAT is the definition of ignorant. Politics and Faith are directly related. You cannot seperate them. A house divided against itself cannot stand. The problem is that people in politics have sold their souls for politics. If faith were restored there, you would have a different world.

You and a good number in the Christian Evangelists thinks that they can spit at the US constitution and laws concerning separation of Church and State.  Because of them, they think they should shove their beliefs into American Laws like abortion.  If these Evangelists put as much effort in helping the poor or having a bigger influence in Darfur as much as abortion, they will be much more respected by Democrats.

[throwingks]

Religion has no place in our politics. Period.

For the people by the people.

We are NOT a Christian nation.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Oct 25 2006, 11:23 AM)

You and a good number in the Christian Evangelists thinks that they can spit at the US constitution and laws concerning separation of Church and State. Because of them, they think they should shove their beliefs into American Laws like abortion. If these Evangelists put as much effort in helping the poor or having a bigger influence in Darfur as much as abortion, they will be much more respected by Democrats.

The only way they would be more respected by the Democrats is if the Democrats controlled congress and the white house. That's all anyone into politics really care about regardless of party.... whether or not their party was in control. We don't spit at the constitution, we are for religious freedom but for more moral choices in politics. Why is having morals a bad thing? How is someone not wanting people to kill people "shoving their beliefs into American lives" and "spitting at the constitution? The constitution states it guarantees certain inalienable rights. These include LIFE, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

QUOTE(throwingks @ Oct 25 2006, 11:53 AM)

Religion has no place in our politics. Period.

For the people by the people.

We are NOT a Christian nation.

Religion does have a place in politics because it brings morality. PERIOD. How is morality not by the people for the people? God is somehow against the people? We're "One nation, Under GOD, with liberty and justice for all".

[throwingks]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Oct 25 2006, 01:58 PM)

Religion does have a place in politics because it brings morality. PERIOD. How is morality not by the people for the people? God is somehow against the people? We're "One nation, Under GOD, with liberty and justice for all".

That was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Try reading the 1st amendment. It's a bit more important. Our nation was not founded on "One nation Under God" and who says Christian morals are the right morals? I know Muslims don't agree. It is the morals of the people that should dictate the morals of the laws. Your so called Christian morals are killing innocent people and leaving more paralyzed because stem cell research is "immoral." I believe you cannot prove by example, but that is only 1. There are many more.