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[pug_ster]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Jul 20 2006, 02:47 PM)

This really shouldn't have to be explained. You have been criticizing the actions taken. I told you that anyone can criticize but only the people who have a suggestion on what to do have the right to criticize. Once you finally came up with an idea to earn the right to criticize it was silly. Since I am only critical of the silly arguments you have made, and agree with Israel taking action (I don't agree with the extent of what they've done) I don't have to suggest a course of action since them taking action IS my position. This is all self explanatory and should not have to be spelled out for someone.
Edit: If you want full specifics... if i were calling the shots I would have immediatelely sent the message to lebanon that Israel has been provoked. They can rid themselves of Hezbollah, my country can aid lebanon and maybe strengthen the poor relationship the two countries have always had, or they can procrastinate and my country will do it alone and nobody will like the outcome. Simply getting the soldiers back is not acceptable. Preventing any future acts is a high priority and we will work with Lebanon if given the chance as allies but if that chance is not given Lebanon will be harboring terrorists and should not be suprised when casualtys are suffered due to the actions taken by Israel. No timetable will be given. Act swiftly, the level of success is easily determined and Israely action or no action will be determined based on the timeliness of the success.

It is impossible to get rid of terrorists in Israel within their country.  There's those crazy Jhiadists sneak to Israel and blow themselves up in busses and public places.  As long as there's tension betwen Israel and its neighbors, the flow of the Jhiadists are here to stay.

I don't know what Israel was thinking when they decided to retailtate after those Israeli soldiers got kiddnapped and killed.  Israel has no plan of getting rid of Hezbollah or ending the conflict.  Lebanon government can't do squat.  Hezbollah doesn't care but they just want to shoot missiles at Israel.  Israel has no plans to end the conflict.  

There is no way of getting rid of Hezbollah out from Lebanon.  Israel should learn that from the US when attacked Iraq.  There will always be people from Syria and Iran who willing their place.

Edit: Don't be surprised that a new crop of Hezbollah Sympathizers popping up here in the US soon.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Jul 20 2006, 11:52 AM)

It is impossible to get rid of terrorists in Israel within their country. There's those crazy Jhiadists sneak to Israel and blow themselves up in busses and public places. As long as there's tension betwen Israel and its neighbors, the flow of the Jhiadists are here to stay.

I don't know what Israel was thinking when they decided to retailtate after those Israeli soldiers got kiddnapped and killed. Israel has no plan of getting rid of Hezbollah or ending the conflict. Lebanon government can't do squat. Hezbollah doesn't care but they just want to shoot missiles at Israel. Israel has no plans to end the conflict.

There is no way of getting rid of Hezbollah out from Lebanon. Israel should learn that from the US when attacked Iraq. There will always be people from Syria and Iran who willing their place.

Edit: Don't be surprised that a new crop of Hezbollah Sympathizers popping up here in the US soon.


 

If that is indeed fact then all-out war in unavoidable. I would hate to live in a country where the leader simply took the punishment and never defended his country. Something HAS to be done.

Edit: Just saw your edit. I would be suprised if Hezbollah attacked here in the U.S. because they know we'll do what they do to us and then some. They would accomplish nothing.

[pug_ster]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Jul 20 2006, 06:41 PM)

If that is indeed fact then all-out war in unavoidable. I would hate to live in a country where the leader simply took the punishment and never defended his country. Something HAS to be done.

Edit: Just saw your edit. I would be suprised if Hezbollah attacked here in the U.S. because they know we'll do what they do to us and then some. They would accomplish nothing.

WWI was started with the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand.  As a result, countries who condem or was for the assassination sided and fought with each other because they felt that they had to do something about this atrocity.  That's what happens when something HAS to be done.

After WWII ended the UN was formed to prevent crisis like what happened recently to an all out war.  Which is why Annan was calling for halt in violence within that region.  Right now it is considered a 'official' local skirmish between Hezbollah and Israel but you can bet that there are soldiers from Iran and Syria involved.  

Hopefully this conflict won't spill over to other countries because it can go downhill from there on.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Jul 20 2006, 02:13 PM)

WWI was started with the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. As a result, countries who condem or was for the assassination sided and fought with each other because they felt that they had to do something about this atrocity. That's what happens when something HAS to be done.

After WWII ended the UN was formed to prevent crisis like what happened recently to an all out war. Which is why Annan was calling for halt in violence within that region. Right now it is considered a 'official' local skirmish between Hezbollah and Israel but you can bet that there are soldiers from Iran and Syria involved.

Hopefully this conflict won't spill over to other countries because it can go downhill from there on.

 

Assassinating Francis Ferdinand is nothing like defending one's country and cannot be used to compare the two in an analogy since they are so dissimilar and irrelevant. I didn't eat for several weeks. I almost went into cardiac arrest from low potassium levels. Something HAD to be done. All worked out well. This is just as irrelevant as your argument but proves to the contrary of your point.

 

The UN does not ever take any action even after they deem it necessary so no one can rely on them. You have to remember these are not people who really care about rules and regulations. Otherwise they would not be kidnapping and randomly bombing. I doubt there are uniformed soldiers from Iran and Syria. i'm sure there are people fighting of the extremist type from Iran and Syria(Hell that's where Hezbollah is from so obviously).... but they do not receive diplomacy with open arms. Actually they would rather cut an Israeli's head off than listen to him speak.

[pug_ster]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Jul 20 2006, 08:31 PM)

Assassinating Francis Ferdinand is nothing like defending one's country and cannot be used to compare the two in an analogy since they are so dissimilar and irrelevant. I didn't eat for several weeks. I almost went into cardiac arrest from low potassium levels. Something HAD to be done. All worked out well. This is just as irrelevant as your argument but proves to the contrary of your point.

You should read up on some history.  They are similiar, the Assassination of Francis Ferdinand and the killing of the Israeli soldiers are the 'trigger' for the wars in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia...._of_World_War_I
 

QUOTE

The UN does not ever take any action even after they deem it necessary so no one can rely on them. You have to remember these are not people who really care about rules and regulations. Otherwise they would not be kidnapping and randomly bombing. I doubt there are uniformed soldiers from Iran and Syria. i'm sure there are people fighting of the extremist type from Iran and Syria(Hell that's where Hezbollah is from so obviously).... but they do not receive diplomacy with open arms. Actually they would rather cut an Israeli's head off than listen to him speak.

That's not what UN does.  Don't expect UN to go in guns first and send 'peacekeepers' to stop the hostilities.  Instead, they try to force the countries to stop fighting thru collective response.  Of course, you hear Bush's ire to say that 'Israel have the right to defend itself.'

[pug_ster]

Well, guess nobody post something about this so I might as well do so.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14023353/

Looks like Bush's lap dog Rice was sent to the Middle East and touted that the long term solution fix is to disarm Hezbollah.  Meanwhile most of the other Middle East and European pleaded with US and Israel to stop fighting so that they can stop the needless deaths which seems to grow exponentially.

I don't know what Bush and Rice are smoking, but disarming Hezbollah is a pipe dream because Hezbollah is such an intricate part of Lebanon's government.

[throwingks]

It is more than disarming Hezbollah in my opinion. It is the same reason we are in Iraq. It's 2-fold. We (Israel and us) are sending a message to terrorists that they are not gonna accomplish their goals. They don't scare anyone. People will retaliate.
There is also a preconceived notion that WW3 will start in the Middle East. If we can have some Democratic nations over there that increases the chances we come out on top, without just dropping nukes and levelling the area. Israel being the 1st and hopefully more will come.

[pug_ster]

I would disagree.  It is essentially making a bad situation worse. Give Iraq for example.  Before Saddam was outed, it wasn't exactly favorable to the US.  Give the situation today, US had 'good' intentions of making Iraq stable but now it is on the verge of a civil war where 100+ people died each day due to violence.  Don't take me wrong, I don't like Saddam being the president of Iraq, but isn't it worse when a country going to civil war and the outcome is probably some leader worse than Saddam?

Given the US and Israel have 'good' intentions of getting rid of Hezbollah with a similiar tactic of getting rid of terrorists/insurgents in Iraq will have the same results as Iraq, or worse.

[throwingks]

I agree with your statements, but they are not contrary to mine. In the grand scheme of things, 100+ a day dying in civil war does not compare to 500,000 when a nuke is dropped because the people in charge (winners of civil war) are such bad people that world war is imminent. The reason we are still in Iraq is to establish a democracy. Where the leaders if they are bad, worse than Saddam, can be ousted instead of the previous regime of "vote against me and your family will die."

I do not disagree that all of ours reasoning for being there is not for the good of the world. But, outing these people is for the good of the world. You can turn a blind eye to senseless terrorism for only so long before extremists on the other end start fighting back.

These people want to start WW3 because they believe it will signal the returning of the messiah and bring happiness and peace. They do not care about peoples feelings. Their "good" is solely based on extremist religious beliefs. Even if that includes killing innocents or using innocents as shields.

P.S. I am hoping our talk will bring some life back into these forums again.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(throwingks @ Jul 25 2006, 11:14 AM)

It is more than disarming Hezbollah in my opinion. It is the same reason we are in Iraq. It's 2-fold. We (Israel and us) are sending a message to terrorists that they are not gonna accomplish their goals. They don't scare anyone. People will retaliate.
There is also a preconceived notion that WW3 will start in the Middle East. If we can have some Democratic nations over there that increases the chances we come out on top, without just dropping nukes and levelling the area. Israel being the 1st and hopefully more will come.

I often wonder why people must kill to impose their good will onto others.

The gentiles went to Iraq to save the Iraqi people, yet the Iraqi people are suffering most.

We went to Iraq unlike N. Korea(the guys threatening nuclear war everyday) because of cronyism or war profiteering.

The only entities benifitting from Iraq war are:
1. Bin LAden
2. Iranians
3 Halliburton

You are correct the Euralis are waiting on the return of the "profit"

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Jul 20 2006, 03:51 PM)

You should read up on some history. They are similiar, the Assassination of Francis Ferdinand and the killing of the Israeli soldiers are the 'trigger' for the wars in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia...._of_World_War_I



That's not what UN does. Don't expect UN to go in guns first and send 'peacekeepers' to stop the hostilities. Instead, they try to force the countries to stop fighting thru collective response. Of course, you hear Bush's ire to say that 'Israel have the right to defend itself.'

Edit: I apologize for the slow reply. Due to the storms that rocked this area I have been without power or a connection to the internet for some time. Now that the cleanup process is well under way and most things are back to normal I have time to reply.

I HAVE read up on history. There is a trigger for everything. That is where your similarity ends. The analogy goes no deeper. That is why your point is not only invalid but downright silly and laughable. I could counter by saying that when the United States was attacked by the Japanese at Pearl harbor, that "triggered" the U.S. to enter WW2 and end the war. Neither analogy is applicable here.



The UN does simply try to make peace but where you're wrong is that they have the capability to take military action, they just never will. EVEN AFTER their inspectors are telling them that they do not have enough access, found al-samoud missiles(that Iraq was ordered to destroy but later shot at our troops and into israel proving that they did not). Then were told by the leader that they would be given no more access and then later he recants and apparently complies. Especially if the key members are in on an Oil for food scam and know when military action is taken that they will be found out.



At any rate, this document illustrates why Israel is taking the action it is taking. It shows that Israel complied with SEVERAL demands but Lebanon did not keep Hezbollah in check which was basically its only responsibility.

LINK



It goes deeper than all of this. Israel pulled troops out of the Gaza strip and pulled troops out of lebanon to comply with demands. Hezbollah said it would stop attacking if these things were done and then attacked Israel from those very locations. Israel has exercized diplomacy for a long time now. It's not working and so they are taking their only option.

QUOTE(pug_ster @ Jul 25 2006, 10:54 AM)

I would disagree. It is essentially making a bad situation worse. Give Iraq for example. Before Saddam was outed, it wasn't exactly favorable to the US. Give the situation today, US had 'good' intentions of making Iraq stable but now it is on the verge of a civil war where 100+ people died each day due to violence. Don't take me wrong, I don't like Saddam being the president of Iraq, but isn't it worse when a country going to civil war and the outcome is probably some leader worse than Saddam?

Given the US and Israel have 'good' intentions of getting rid of Hezbollah with a similiar tactic of getting rid of terrorists/insurgents in Iraq will have the same results as Iraq, or worse.

If building a democracy out of a harsh dictatorship is making a bad situation worse in your opinion it's a good thing you are not a political leader of any kind..I don't know where you're getting that death toll but I'd like to see the source since it's nowhere near accurate. People quickly forget how long it took the U.S. to become a stable democracy. It's not a matter of whipping up some nice legal statements and then forming a government. It takes time and people have to accept it and get used to it. I don't think it's fair to the Iraqi people to say they are the only ones hurt by all this... since they are the ones that are going to enjoy reap all the rewards for this hard work. Your speculation on a civil war and a leader worse than Saddam is again simply speculation and unfounded. Applying it to Israel and Hezbollah is silly as well. There are no similarities other than people are trying to fix a problem.

[throwingks]

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ Jul 26 2006, 08:34 AM)

I often wonder why people must kill to impose their good will onto others.

The gentiles went to Iraq to save the Iraqi people, yet the Iraqi people are suffering most.

We went to Iraq unlike N. Korea(the guys threatening nuclear war everyday) because of cronyism or war profiteering.

The only entities benifitting from Iraq war are:
1. Bin LAden
2. Iranians
3 Halliburton

You are correct the Euralis are waiting on the return of the "profit"

You're crazy man.

[BCfosheezy]

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Jul 26 2006, 05:06 PM)

Lets dig deep......

If Israel had "complied" with 60+ UN resolutions we would not be on the brink of WW3. Both sides are as bad as each other but any saine person would agree Israel has gone over the top with her actions this time.

 

Well if we're going to "Dig Deep" let's show some facts rather than your speculation. If you look at the document I posted, Israel wasn't even invited to speak at the meeting because of their compliance. Lebanon however, was invited due to their lack of compliance. Bottom line is, Israel tried to comply to make peace, Hezbollah wouldn't let them and since they are based in Lebanon the U.N. left it up to them to neutralize Hezbollah. The didn't, Hezbollah attacked Israel after Israel had complied and now you see Israel take action once it realizes diplomacy has failed. At first glance... yes I felt Israel went overboard but we don't really know. They are fighting extremists who hide among civilians. This is why they are a ununiformed force. That's their whole advantage. Lebanon had YEARS maybe even decades to prevent this. They should not be suprised that Israel is trying to rid itself of the thorn in it's shoe and that they are taking collateral damage. I'm not for it, but it shouldn't suprise anyone.

[pug_ster]

QUOTE(BCfosheezy @ Jul 26 2006, 07:21 PM)

I HAVE read up on history. There is a trigger for everything. That is where your similarity ends. The analogy goes no deeper. That is why your point is not only invalid but downright silly and laughable. I could counter by saying that when the United States was attacked by the Japanese at Pearl harbor, that "triggered" the U.S. to enter WW2 and end the war. Neither analogy is applicable here.

I have proved my point, you said earlier that there are no similiarities this incident and WWI.  And now you said that there is a similiarity.  Therefore, you are contradicting yourself.  Before you say my argument is 'invalid and laughable', you might think about what you said.

QUOTE

The UN does simply try to make peace but where you're wrong is that they have the capability to take military action, they just never will. EVEN AFTER their inspectors are telling them that they do not have enough access, found al-samoud missiles(that Iraq was ordered to destroy but later shot at our troops and into israel proving that they did not). Then were told by the leader that they would be given no more access and then later he recants and apparently complies. Especially if the key members are in on an Oil for food scam and know when military action is taken that they will be found out.
At any rate, this document illustrates why Israel is taking the action it is taking. It shows that Israel complied with SEVERAL demands but Lebanon did not keep Hezbollah in check which was basically its only responsibility.

Like I said, the UN does not go in guns first.  You expect countries bickering each other before they all agree on a 'unilaterial response.'

QUOTE

LINK
It goes deeper than all of this. Israel pulled troops out of the Gaza strip and pulled troops out of lebanon to comply with demands. Hezbollah said it would stop attacking if these things were done and then attacked Israel from those very locations. Israel has exercized diplomacy for a long time now. It's not working and so they are taking their only option.

Even if Hezbollah is arming along the southern border, Israel didn't have to bomb Lebanon civilian infrastructure.

QUOTE

If building a democracy out of a harsh dictatorship is making a bad situation worse in your opinion it's a good thing you are not a political leader of any kind..I don't know where you're getting that death toll but I'd like to see the source since it's nowhere near accurate. People quickly forget how long it took the U.S. to become a stable democracy. It's not a matter of whipping up some nice legal statements and then forming a government. It takes time and people have to accept it and get used to it. I don't think it's fair to the Iraqi people to say they are the only ones hurt by all this... since they are the ones that are going to enjoy reap all the rewards for this hard work. Your speculation on a civil war and a leader worse than Saddam is again simply speculation and unfounded. Applying it to Israel and Hezbollah is silly as well. There are no similarities other than people are trying to fix a problem.

Well, you can believe what Bush's propaganda that Iraq is a stable country and 'democration' of the middle east all you want.  And here's the article about the amount of deaths in Iraq.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13952922/

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(Arvarden @ Jul 26 2006, 06:06 PM)

Lets dig deep......

If Israel had "complied" with 60+ UN resolutions we would not be on the brink of WW3.  Both sides are as bad as each other but any saine person would agree Israel has gone over the top with her actions this time.

They are both Terrorist states, just one is our kind or terroists.

But you bring up a good point all the hoopla about Iraqs UN violations when the Euralis lead the pack of violators and given the US has vetod a number of recent resolution attempts against Euralis that number would be much higher, and they possibly would be facing sanctions themselves.

But whats hilarious is their "surgical" strikes and "intelligence gathering" then they bomb UN station after getting numerous communications of its position

We stupid Americans ante up tax money to rebuild Lebanon, while selling Euralis weapons to destroy it.

They bombed starbucks for Christ sakes..........

QUOTE(throwingks @ Jul 27 2006, 12:38 AM)

You're crazy man.

Like a FOX...