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[navysailor_E3]

QUOTE(jha'dhur @ Apr 16 2006, 10:02 PM)

the fact that a few hundred years ago we were all illegal immigrants

QUOTE(Alex548 @ Apr 16 2006, 10:04 PM)

The majority of the people marching on the streets are supporters of immigrants and they ARE legal citizens of the U.S.

illegal immigrants pay taxes every single time they buy something at the store so you're just regurgitating the same BS that you heard somewhere else. Here's a nice little tidbit for ya. LEGAL US CITIZENS RIP OFF THE GOVERNMENT EVERY SINGLE YEAR BY FILING FRAUDULENT TAX RETURN FORMS. Tax cheats make our government lose money. Taking what jobs? Do you see any white people working in the fields?  

The U.S. relies heavily on these illegal immigrants to help provide food on our tables, but you still wanna say get the hell out.    In the past, the U.S. has gone so far as to beg them to come across the border to work in the fields (research the Bracero Program).

You obviously didn't read all the posts because most of the stuff you mentioned has already been covered, but considering this thread has gone numerous posts... I don't blame you.

So you're stereotyping our ancestors?  How dignified of you.  The fact of the matter is, times have changed, and it was different back then.  For your information, most of the immigrants were LEGAL, and the ones that were illegal still busted it and actually learned our language and worked hard(not saying that negates the fact that illegal immigration is still illegal).  All the illegals I've seen around here and/or heard about, they barely know a word of English, and they have kids so that they can suck welfare from the government, and at the same time making their stay in the U.S. permanent.  For being a shipmate, you seem to not have as much pride in being a U.S. citizen as I would assume you would.  

As for Alex, yes, they do technically pay some tax whenever they make a purchase at a store, but the vast majority of the government's revenue is from INCOME TAX, something ILLEGALS don't pay.  As for what you said about U.S. citizens ripping off the government as well, you obviously didn't get the big picture when I used the sarcastic analogy.  Tax evading is wrong.  Period.  No matter who does it.  Illegals are just as guilty as the people you just described, so thanks for sticking your own foot in your mouth.  As for the jobs, again, you apparently didn't listen to what I just said.  I couldn't get a job here because I didn't know how to speak spanish.  That's catering to their needs; while they sit there and practically refuse to learn OUR language, we're forced into a predicament where we need to learn someone else's language in order to make any progress.  Well, you're not forced, but you basically have no options.  You get the idea.

That's total BS on what you just said about us relying on illegals to "have food on our tables".  You want to know one of the real reasons why businesses hire illegals, besides cheap labor?  It's the fact that they can't form labor unions.  I wonder if anyone has brought that up yet.  

[Alex548]

QUOTE

All the illegals I've seen around here and/or heard about, they barely know a word of English, and they have kids so that they can suck welfare from the government, and at the same time making their stay in the U.S. permanent.

To get on welfare you must have documents such as birth certificates, SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS, and proof of income (or lack therof). That's why you see such a low percentage of them actually on the welfare system. Here's some data for you to take a look at:

White     38.8%
Black     39.8%
Hispanic  15.7%
Asian      2.4%
other      3.3%

SEE: Andrew Hacker, _Two Nations Balck and White: Separate, Hostile, Unequal_, Scribners, 1992, p. 87.

In regards to the language issue.... even those who have LEGALLY come into the U.S. have issues with the language. Does every single asian, arab, and Indian speak fluent english? No. All immigrants regardless of ethnicity have a bit of trouble learning the english language (especially if they're first generation). Given time, they actually try very hard to understand the language. Their children have an advantage over the first generation since they are still very young and have minds like sponges (they just soak it all up). The key point in your statement is this "All the illegals I've seen around here and/or heard about..." You're basing your arguments on heresay?  

QUOTE

I couldn't get a job here because I didn't know how to speak spanish. That's catering to their needs; while they sit there and practically refuse to learn OUR language, we're forced into a predicament where we need to learn someone else's language in order to make any progress.

You come off sounding rather closed minded. If your environment requires you to adapt (learn another language), then why don't you at least make an effort to do so? I find it rather amusing when I hear people complain about language as a barrier. Why? Because while most other countries teach their children 3 or more languages, the U.S. only teaches one (maybe 2 if you're lucky). Learning another language is the first step to understanding other cultures. Unfortunately, most people rather not make an attempt to understand any other culture except their own.

QUOTE

That's total BS on what you just said about us relying on illegals to "have food on our tables". You want to know one of the real reasons why businesses hire illegals, besides cheap labor? It's the fact that they can't form labor unions. I wonder if anyone has brought that up yet.

If they don't have unions, then I wonder what Cesar Chavez was fighting for in the 70's? I suppose he organized the grape strike because he just didn't like the taste of them.  
There's numerous labor unions. The biggest example is the United Farmworkers Union (backed by the AFL-CIO). I guess you never "heard" about that either.

By the way, where does all the produce you buy in the stores come from? Take a wild guess who's picking them so you can eat?

You brought up a couple points nobody else has yet to mention, but data and research support the opposite point of view.

[shuyin131]

QUOTE

In regards to the language issue.... even those who have LEGALLY come into the U.S. have issues with the language. Does every single asian, arab, and Indian speak fluent english? No. All immigrants regardless of ethnicity have a bit of trouble learning the english language (especially if they're first generation).

QUOTE

You come off sounding rather closed minded. If your environment requires you to adapt (learn another language), then why don't you at least make an effort to do so?

gee you just answered your own question.  Seems like you want to stick up for illegals but condemn citizens? You say that illegals have trouble learning English? Don't you think it's the same for us? Regardless of if we have the classes available or not?  Fact is, the majority spoken language in the US is English, and that is why we don't care to learn another language if we're not gonna go anywhere.  Does that mean we're ignornat? No. Does that mean we're close minded? No.  

In fact, go to many other countries and see if they know english.  That's right, 99% of the time, if you spoke to a local, they most likely DON'T know english, but if you go to a business, more specifically, a worldwide chain, like McD's you'd find somebody that can speak English.

QUOTE

You brought up a couple points nobody else has yet to mention, but data and research support the opposite point of view.

yet you show us no proof either.

QUOTE

Unfortunately, most people rather not make an attempt to understand any other culture except their own.

exactly why he's criticizing illegals.  they're doing exactly what you just said, although you pretend you don't know, you know it yourself in which you just showed us.

we americans, do make an attempt to learn their language.  Ever saw the Ford commercial? You see a mexican guy speaking english, talking about their service, he said, I came in speaking their language, then said in spanish "Instead they speak mine"

Another example was when I was watching our local news.  They said that they provide the same newscasts
"En Espanol" so obviously we're learning their language or at least catering to them so that they aren't left out either.

[Alex548]

QUOTE(shuyin131 @ Apr 17 2006, 01:27 PM)

gee you just answered your own question.  Seems like you want to stick up for illegals but condemn citizens? You say that illegals have trouble learning English? Don't you think it's the same for us? Regardless of if we have the classes available or not?  Fact is, the majority spoken language in the US is English, and that is why we don't care to learn another language if we're not gonna go anywhere.  Does that mean we're ignornat? No. Does that mean we're close minded? No.  

In fact, go to many other countries and see if they know english.  That's right, 99% of the time, if you spoke to a local, they most likely DON'T know english, but if you go to a business, more specifically, a worldwide chain, like McD's you'd find somebody that can speak English.
yet you show us no proof either.
exactly why he's criticizing illegals.  they're doing exactly what you just said, although you pretend you don't know, you know it yourself in which you just showed us.

we americans, do make an attempt to learn their language.  Ever saw the Ford commercial? You see a mexican guy speaking english, talking about their service, he said, I came in speaking their language, then said in spanish "Instead they speak mine"

Another example was when I was watching our local news.  They said that they provide the same newscasts
"En Espanol" so obviously we're learning their language or at least catering to them so that they aren't left out either.

You obviously didn't spend any time reading the posts.

I especially like this part: "Yet you show us no proof either."
Hello!    You must not have seen the welfare statistics I pointed out. Hell, I even cited where the the data was from.

Oh yeah, I'm definitely closed minded. That's why I know three languages and work with primarily arab, Indian, and mexican people on a daily basis. I guess being married to a "white" person makes me even more closed minded?  

[shuyin131]

QUOTE

You obviously didn't spend any time reading the posts.

yet I broke down key points in your argument, which means I read the entire thing.

QUOTE

Hello! You must not have seen the welfare statistics I pointed out. Hell, I even cited where the the data was from.

Asian 38.8%
Hispanic 39.8%
White 15.7%
Black 2.4%
other 3.3%

See? Anybody can type that up.  Show us a significant link, from a good source, and we'll look more closely at what you're saying.  Otherwise, its not counted as proof.

edit:  I googled your Andrew Hacker and that except came from a book, from 1992 no less.  From 1992 to 2006, are huge jumps in population and changes in the employment scene.  It's outdated, and not only outdated, it's based on opinion and inconclusive evidence.  Give us something real, like statistics from the government census or real data from the Welfare services themselves.

QUOTE

Oh yeah, I'm definitely closed minded.

Show me where in my post that said you were.

[Alex548]

QUOTE

Give us something real, like statistics from the government census or real data from the Welfare services themselves.

We don't have a Census every single year.

Besides, over 78% of those on welfare are black/white. Do you really think that number has dramatically changed since the last census?  You want more statistics, search for them. Maybe take some college courses on the subject (like I did).

There's no point in providing any further statistical proof because you're just gonna pull some crap out your ass and change the subject anyway. For that matter, there's no point in even visiting this thread anymore since I can obviously see people don't give a damn to see any other points of view other than your own.

Lemme guess, you're gonna take my last sentence and try to pull some more crap out your ass with it. Before you even try, I can tell you I'm american, I was born & raised here. I have proven time and again that I'm not biased towards americans yet just because I fail to agree with the common mexican stereotypes in my previous posts, SOME people here have decided to suggest I'm anti-american. All the statistical data and all that research on these specific subjects I read while in college must be wrong.    

Go ahead and say whatever the hell you want. I won't reply anymore.
Most people trying to argue these points haven't even taken any courses or researched the subject at hand and only choose to repeat what they "heard."

Have a good day.  

[shuyin131]

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There's no point in providing any further statistical proof because you're just gonna pull some crap out your ass and change the subject anyway.

Statistical proof? I'm asking you to stand your ground because you have no ground to stand on.  Everything you've given us thus far has been assumptions, opinions, hearsay, etc.  

Change the subject? Since when did we change the subject? You say one thing, then say another thing which completely contradicts the 1st thing that you said.  

Then you accuse me of calling you close-minded when I never did.  I asked you to show me and you didn't.

QUOTE

For that matter, there's no point in even visiting this thread anymore since I can obviously see people don't give a damn to see any other points of view other than your own.

Thats complete and utter bullshit.  You are guilty of that, not we.  I've been lurking around here pretty much and your posts are mainly the reason why I've come out of lurking the boards.  I just can't stand people like you, who can't see eye to eye with people just because they don't agree with you.  

I've seen you go toe to toe with Kira Yamoto, and got owned, and hard, I might add.  I saw you converse with navyguy and you did not provide any proof as to what you were talking about and not only that, he pointed out that you didn't read a word he said, which goes back to Kira owning you because he proved you can't read.  Either that, or you're so ignorant to the other side of facts that you refuse to listen.

Just because some of us here have different opinions, DOES NOT MEAN we dont see other points of view.  All of us tried our best in expressing our opinions but you just can't sit well w/ the other side of someone's views and opinion.

QUOTE

I have proven time and again that I'm not biased towards americans

You have proven nothing, nor have you made the attempt.  As I said I've been lurking and your posts were the ones that drew me to post because you're obviously too thick-headed and juvenile that you don't even listen to yourself because of how high you are on that horse.

Re-Read the past few pages, your own posts.  Really, really pay attention and maybe you'll catch why people think you're biased.  You give NO positive light to ANY of the pro-bill side, NOR are you willing to see it's goals, viewpoints, etc.  Yet you're on the defensive everytime the subject of anti-bill pops up.  

When you go and defend that you're not biased, YOU MADE IT LOOK WORSE by saying that you grew up around hispanics all your life, and that you're even a hispanic yourself, but you try to cover it up to mean you're not biased by saying you married a white woman.  It doesnt matter, you're biased. Get over it.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(Kira Yamoto @ Apr 13 2006, 09:08 PM)

I didn't flame you, I posted what I thought to be true.  Why can't you let someone's opinion of you just sit right where it is? You called me a racist and I didnt reply with profanities, I just made my case and that was the end of it.  When I said you couldnt read, I truly believe that you can't and in my mind, was not meant as a flame.  It was completely in your power to step away. I did step away, in fact, I dropped the issue altogether and only made a comment (in which you thought was a flame, maybe it was?) towards why I stopped.  It had nothing to do with the issue we wanted dropped.
This is what you and everyone else agreed to.  What you posted, I did not even have a chance to read as it was not stickied in the current sub-section of the forum.  Also, I could not have agreed to these rules you just quoted because I did not see them.  That doesnt mean I can't read.

I have violated no Terms of Service thus far.  I am, however, subject to a moderator's action because of what was posted, but as far as it can go, is an edit.  What you were saying was a bannable offense.

Your Governor just today VETO'D the Immigration Bill......

[shuyin131]

QUOTE

She cited opposition from police agencies that want immigration arrests to remain the responsibility of the federal government.

QUOTE

She also says the Arizona bill provided no funding for the new duties and that lawmakers ignored the opinions of officials most affected by illegal immigration.

Opposition? They're supposed to do their jobs, they live in Arizona all the same and who else to enforce the bill but Arizonan authority?

Funding? Funding for what? Adding a new policy to city police?

QUOTE

Napolitano says she opposes automatically turning all immigrants who sneaked into the state into criminals.

She didn't even consider the pros.  The most likely reason why she veto'ed this bill is because she's afraid those illegals will riot and harm other people and cause trouble for the cities involved.

QUOTE

Republican Senator Barbara Leff, who proposed the bill, says the veto demonstrates that the governor doesn't want to confront illegal immigration.

This goes hand in hand with what I said above.  She's afraid of what it might do to people.  Instead of considering the pros, she only concentrated on the cons and did not outweigh the potential of what good this bill might do.

QUOTE

Prior to her election as Governor of Arizona, she served one term as Arizona Attorney General and four years as U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona. Born in New York City and raised in Albuquerque, New Mexico, she is a distinguished alumna of Santa Clara University and the University of Virginia Law School. She has lived in Arizona since 1983, when she moved to Phoenix to practice law.

look at the very last link.  I say shes biased.

Good thing for me, the bill was signed where I live
http://news.yahoo.co...s/immigration_3

Read that article and notice how none of the problems AZ government brought up, have not been brought up, and that these changes were mostly in policy, which meant they needed no funding whatsoever.  If anybody can dispute that I'd like to hear it.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(shuyin131 @ Apr 18 2006, 09:51 PM)

jha:

I'm pretty interested in anything about this bill, so I googled Phoenix Arizona Immigration and these sites are of interest.

http://kvoa.com/Glob...5&nav=menu216_2
http://azgovernor.gov/BioJN.asp
http://quickfacts.ce...ates/35000.html

About the 1st site, here are some things I found interesting.
Opposition? They're supposed to do their jobs, they live in Arizona all the same and who else to enforce the bill but Arizonan authority?

Funding? Funding for what? Adding a new policy to city police?
She didn't even consider the pros.  The most likely reason why she veto'ed this bill is because she's afraid those illegals will riot and harm other people and cause trouble for the cities involved.
This goes hand in hand with what I said above.  She's afraid of what it might do to people.  Instead of considering the pros, she only concentrated on the cons and did not outweigh the potential of what good this bill might do.
look at the very last link.  I say shes biased.

My entire take on this entire thread is that we Americans have to hold officials to their word.  

People want revenues from illegals, but cant have it both ways. Secondly, police officers arent immigration enforcement offiicals it is not their mandate nor are they trained to respond as such. And from what I have read this is pretty much the attitude of police across country.

Police are dumb and can barely handle there own jobs this is why they "selectively" enforce laws.  

@NavySailor E3

I personallly dont give a sh*t about Mexicans one way or the other.

The last mission I was apart off before leaving the navy was near the russian western coast in the same waters where the Kursk sank. We readied for deployment in a few days and went to sea with tubes flooded with BIG BOYS.  One of the subjects of our investigation were those 250 mph torpedoes/underwater missiles.  

The same torpedoes IRAN has purchased from the Russians, a seawolf class submarine is at a crwal at 50 knots compared to one of these torpedoes.

You ask someone at your duty station with a warfare pendant (SS or SW), what scares them most illegal immigration or those "ship" killers.

[shuyin131]

QUOTE

People want revenues from illegals, but cant have it both ways. Secondly, police officers arent immigration enforcement offiicals it is not their mandate nor are they trained to respond as such. And from what I have read this is pretty much the attitude of police across country.

Ok, so immigration enforcement isnt a part of their job, but measures can be taken (which already are just about everywhere), when they go do their background checks, they see whether they are illegal or not so all they'd have to do is file the report to the officials involved and let them take it from there.

It's just that for Arizona, before, they'd be deported through the process of reporting to the correct agencies, but because of the veto, they wouldnt be able to make them felons in the process.

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(shuyin131 @ Apr 18 2006, 10:39 PM)

Ok, so immigration enforcement isnt a part of their job, but measures can be taken (which already are just about everywhere), when they go do their background checks, they see whether they are illegal or not so all they'd have to do is file the report to the officials involved and let them take it from there.

It's just that for Arizona, before, they'd be deported through the process of reporting to the correct agencies, but because of the veto, they wouldnt be able to make them felons in the process.

From what I saw in report Ga is the only recent state to adopt and enforce(to be seen) said policy. The news piece stated that U.S. Senate (Sen Kennedy) has put forth hurdles in enforcing immigration law, by preventing employers from requiring certain documents.

But no social or i.d which most illegals probably dont have from my experience is a good reliable indicator. Anyone that hires an individual without the two should be subject to fines and possible prison.

I know individuals who allow fellow countrymen to use their social to aquire employment. It amazes me that our federal government cant find someone on paper working 5 jobs and 145 hrs/week, which is physically impossible, but the truth is they do not want to find them.

And I cant find fault with hard working individuals wanting to better their lives.  

[throwingks]

QUOTE

Mexico Harsh to Undocumented Migrants

http://www.examiner....d_Migrants.html

And, for jah:

QUOTE

Hiring illegals is just as illegal

http://csmonitor.com...08s01-comv.html

[jha'dhur]

QUOTE(throwingks @ Apr 19 2006, 09:33 AM)

Some good reads:
And, for jah: http://csmonitor.com...08s01-comv.html

QUOTE

The 1986 reform called for criminal and civil punishment of employers who "knowingly" hire unauthorized workers. But laws and fines are meaningless unless they're applied.

"knowingly" the legal back door/loophole. "I DIDNT know he speaks good ENG LESH"

Remeber who is selling out the american peoples..........

[shuyin131]

throwingks:

yep I read that.  What I thought was that in the eyes of the Mexican border police, they see these people as 'sell outs' to the Mexican people and want to treat them as bad as possible because of it.  Everyone else in Mexico are staying in Mexico and dealing w/ it, but they run away to live somewhere else to be better off then they are.

It's inhumane and I don't stand for it, but I can understand what's going through their minds as to why they do it.