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[damam]

its a matter of being able to sleep at night

I dont have a problem with many of the interrogation techniques that Amnesty International complains about, but how useful can these guys be after 2-3 years of being out of the loop?  Once we have gotten everything we can out of them, we ought to treat them alteast as well as we treat our own convicted convicts here in the states.  Their is no reason that is not purely sadistic not too.

[My_Brain_is_on_Fire]

[pepsik]

Well if your an american, and you have a job, then you pay taxes. Guess where your tax dollars will be going to for the next  40+ years?

Other things could change like Fidel Castro could die tomorrow, leaving Cuba free. If that happens where are we going to ship these prisoners? It's a sticky situation that can only get worse with time.

[pegasys]

Although torture is wrong, in dealing with terrorism sometimes it needds to be done, it is a terrible thing and that is why american citizins have rights(which the patriot act takes away, but thats another discussion).  It is a mixed issue, it is the leaders responsiblility to chose to tourture only those who without a reasonable doubt have information.  It is up to the public to elect a intellegint leader who can correctly delegate this "power", torture will always happen, this must be realised and the correct actions must be taken.  I see it as a nessicary evil, but when used inproperly, (in this case) is just plain wrong.

[My_Brain_is_on_Fire]

[jbp20717]

In my opinion, regardless of whatever happened in Guantanamo, the issue is that Mubanga has just been let free without trial.  People are just assuming that these guys are not terrorists because they were let go from Guantanamo, but the only reason that occurred was because of pressue from over here that they hadn't been tried by the British courts and not over the fact that they were innocent.  MI6 were the ones who took Mubanga to Guantanamo, so they obviously suspected him of some degree of involvement in terrorist activities, but he's just been let free to go (or been temporarily electronically tagged, which is hardly punishment for what could be, frankly, treason).  By letting him free, Mubanga is, in a way, already a martyr as people obviously believe that being in Guantanamo for a period of time is punishment enough.

[My_Brain_is_on_Fire]

QUOTE(Colonel32 @ Feb 9 2005, 07:59 AM)

Your confusing yourself.  The reason this is being allowed is because "terrorists' are non-combatants.

[SKoT]

If they could proove it, I would be really upset.

But i wouldnt be surprised at all if this were a huge embelishment/try for attention.

but whatever

[melon]

brain, situations are far, far more complex than black and white. In every argument/discussion there are many shades of gray.

To say anyone fighting against our troops in Afghanastan is evil is ludicrous.

You have to look at the reasons they were fighting and why they belive in those reasons.

A lot of the "terrorists" are from poor backgrounds, Afghanastani people and your average Iraqi are a lot poorer than your average American or Brit. same for Iranian or Pakastani etc..

My point is we are trying to spread Democracy but one of the main reasons for doing so is the free market which comes with it.

It is a common fact that a free market favours big corporations, for examples see the vinyards in Europe and banana farms in pretty much the entire world.

These poorer countries are going to be bombarded with American and British business' who are going to make a lot of localy owned ones shut down.
It is not Iraqi companies rebuilding Iraq, although that would be beneficial to the country . It is not Afghani Companies rebuilding their country.


Just maybe some of the "terrorists" dont want to see there country or that of their "brothers" turned into a giant advertisment sign for McDonalds or to see unIslamic films in the local multiplex.
Maybe they dont want to make American and British companies richer at the expense of local ones.

Who is to say they are wrong and we are right?

Its arrogant to do so.

[My_Brain_is_on_Fire]

QUOTE(melon @ Feb 9 2005, 08:35 PM)

brain, situations are far, far more complex than black and white. In every argument/discussion there are many shades of gray.

[melon]

I dont say they are wrong or we are. I was trying to give another perspective that there are valid reasons why both our countries are hated (we have the whole colonial chain around our neck whilst you have other chains), and that is why people fought afainst our armies. I have problems with people who went from this country to fight abroad against the British army coming back here. I just think the way they have been treated is inhumane and I dont like to see suffering like that for what was essentially fighting a war.
America went ballistic when your troops have been dragged through the streets in the past, that was to dead bodies, your Army is treating people in a way that would have you protesting in the streets if it was done to one of your own.

[My_Brain_is_on_Fire]

And this whole time I thought I was the village idiot.

colonel32

[damam]

QUOTE(My_Brain_is_on_Fire @ Feb 9 2005, 09:26 AM)

... the ends justify the means. Although we may not enact the most humane means of establishing democracy, the end result is that a democracy is established, and that the people are now given a choice; something they did not have before. The argument about the free market favoring big corporations is somewhat true, but alas people have a CHOICE, they have the option to buy from a local distributor, or a corporate one. If the corporate one ends up pursuing a hostile takeover, the consumer always has the option to exit, and can choose not to purchase their products, thus sending the powerful message that such actions are not welcome.

    it is nice to hear some real oppinions from you  

It gives me a chill whenever I hear "the ends justify the means".  Sometimes you have to weigh the two.  But it is an awful slippery slope.  You may be right here, I have not decided.  I do agree that the corporations making money stuff is all crap because it totally ignores freedom of choice.

Heres an example.  What if I were to say that if I could experiment on and kill a thousand convicts - the research would definitevely lead to a cure for AIDS.  Does the ends justify the means?  My answer is no, the ends do not justify the means.  If you ask someone that has AIDS they may have another answer.

Its true that in war we have to make tough decisions.  I also believe the spread of Democracy is a rightous cause.  But I am not willing to say that it is just by any means.

[pegasys]

melon that was a great post.  I totaly agree.  We are forcing our way of life on another group of people, that in it's self is iherintly un-american.  However if a country cries out for help then it is merited.  In the years to come I belive that unless a corrupt puppet govt. is kept in place in Iraq, or it is rulled by corperations America will have to face the consequences of a "free" iraq(ex.  Sadam getting dmocratially eleccted and therefore wasting all of the live that were lost.).

[self]

Reading through the responses to this post there are a few things that needs to be made crystal clear:

1. He was held there for 33 months without any trial or verdict. He was innocent.

2. He is not lying. Take you're head out of the sand. The US army's own internal investigations and memos confirm that this kind of thing is, in fact, happening. It's entirely clear that it's happening, and just about every human rights organization is complaining about it.

news link:
The United States is preparing to hold terrorism suspects indefinitely without trial

This is happening because the american people let's it happen. Innocent people are being tortured in your name, and you are the ones who are letting it happen. I hope you can somehow understand how your image as a country is in the rest of the world. I'm not going to compare you to other regimes that have been, but when a country systematically tortures innocent people, it's pretty serious. And that is what is happening here.

BTW, I'm guessing the american media is not covering this?