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[Baner]

[damam]

QUOTE (Baner @ Dec 1 2004, 08:56 PM)

My friend is pretty messed up from a bid hit of acid, he can't see striaght lines, everything is somewhat curvy, kinda sucks.

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LSD after the initial dose is fused with the individuals spinal fluid, it never exits your system ever. Frequent users will eventually trip out(paranoid schizophrenia) from the chemical imbalance caused from the drug.

Its more likely that thats due to some chemical deviation in his own body that was triggirred by taking acid, than the acid alone causing the problem.  Kind of like Vioxx causing heart attacks in 15/1000 people.  There is always bound to be a small segment of the population that is going to get an undesirable effect.  An example is that I have a friend that is severely allergic to grain alcohols.  That means no beer.  In high school I regularly dropped acid or xtc every weekend (most of the time mixing in other things as well), and occasionally through the week.  I have probably taken well over 100 doses of lsd alone and have suffered no side effects.  Again its your personal physiology that matters.  They also teach you that in Biochem and Psychopharmacology.   There simply has not been enough research done to justify your claim that you eventually "trip out" on lsd pepsik.

There have been synthetics (mostly designer drugs) that have caused massive problems.  The Case of the Frozen Addicts by J. WILLIAM LANGSTON is one of the best books ive read about a designer drug gone bad.  We read it in my Psychopharmacology class.  

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I can't seem to note one natural drug that can be picked and taken on spot, that will screw you over for life.

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Natural Drugs = No known cases of overdose.

mistletoe, Holly, hemlock, and Death Cap to name a few and their are more these are just the ones I know of off the top of my head.  OK, so these are not typical recreational drugs, they are natural, and have been used as drugs in various cultures and it is said to make a point.  Chemicals have no moral value.  We place that on them based on how we decide to use them.  And natural does no equate to safe.

Having said all that, I have no problems legalizing all current recreational drugs so long as atleast these things are taken care of:

1)I dont have to pay for their habbits in any way shape or form.  I dont want to pay for their rehab, medical needs, etc because I largely see these as self inflicted and anything bad that comes of it is their own fault.  I think the same should apply for drinkers and smokers too.

2)before a drug becomes completely legal, we should have a way of quantitizing the dosage in the body (like a breathalizer), to prevent people from driving under the influence or other irresponsible use that puts third party bystanders at risk.  As it stands, there is no way to quantitize most of the drugs and most DWI's dont stand up in court because they are a hesaid/shesaid arguement.  Bottom line, I dont want people on triple hit blue unicorn blotter driving while peaking.

3) companies should be able to get FDA "Seals of Quality" that basically states that the FDA randomly tests this product to insure that it is what it says it is chemically (not necessarily the effectiveness of the claims made by the company).


I am an old drug user that quit several years ago.  You name it I have taken it, and as I have read through all these posts its really funny cause I used to rationalize drug use in the same ways.  Hell, we all did.  I still have friends that are either in jail or on the streets because of this lifestyle meanwhile they are still convinced that they are among the ones that can "handle it".  Its sad, really sad.  Yet it is their choice to live like that, and I will never take that away from them.  I want to live in a righteous country.  I dont believe you can be righteous or show virtue in the abscence of choice.  Take Iran for instance.  The people of this country have all elements of rightousness, yet they are not rightous because they lack the real choice to do the right thing.  They are forced too by law.  Only when you have complete freedom to do wrong and choose to do right, can you be rightous.  And that to me is really what drug laws boil down too.

[tupac]

, u could od on if u tried and thats all natural, ever hear of peyote?   now, what u said about lsd, lol, lsd is gone from ur system in many cases before u even begin to trip, they cant test for it...and i dont know abut the spinal tap stuff but i think that applies to all drugs(if thats even true) and no one is going to give u a spinal tap.....cocaine eats away at ur nostrils huh? no, the the hydrochloric acid and other impurties in cocaine do, and if it was legal people wouldnt have to snort the stuff because it wouldnt be so damn expensive, and itd be pure......and sorry, but the crap u said about "one synthetic can fuck u over, but naturals take time to develop" is just that. ur assuming, u dont know what ur talking about, and either one can do those things.....on to heroin, most ods caused my impurities in the drug, high price so people inject it, and 6 months of abuse, i bet thats from a study of a guy doing it a lot, everyday, well i could have figured out something wuld be wrong with him to....and by ice u mean speed, u put that in ur eyes? maybe acid, but speed?

[tupac]

QUOTE (damam @ Dec 1 2004, 11:01 PM)

Its more likely that thats due to some chemical deviation in his own body that was triggirred by taking acid, than the acid alone causing the problem.  Kind of like Vioxx causing heart attacks in 15/1000 people.  There is always bound to be a small segment of the population that is going to get an undesirable effect.  An example is that I have a friend that is severely allergic to grain alcohols.  That means no beer.  In high school I regularly dropped acid or xtc every weekend (most of the time mixing in other things as well), and occasionally through the week.  I have probably taken well over 100 doses of lsd alone and have suffered no side effects.  Again its your personal physiology that matters.  They also teach you that in Biochem and Psychopharmacology.   There simply has not been enough research done to justify your claim that you eventually "trip out" on lsd pepsik. There have been synthetics (mostly designer drugs) that have caused massive problems.  The Case of the Frozen Addicts by J. WILLIAM LANGSTON is one of the best books ive read about a designer drug gone bad.  We read it in my Psychopharmacology class.   mistletoe, Holly, hemlock, and Death Cap to name a few and their are more these are just the ones I know of off the top of my head.  OK, so these are not typical recreational drugs, they are natural, and have been used as drugs in various cultures and it is said to make a point.  Chemicals have no moral value.  We place that on them based on how we decide to use them.  And natural does no equate to safe. Having said all that, I have no problems legalizing all current recreational drugs so long as atleast these things are taken care of: 1)I dont have to pay for their habbits in any way shape or form.  I dont want to pay for their rehab, medical needs, etc because I largely see these as self inflicted and anything bad that comes of it is their own fault.  I think the same should apply for drinkers and smokers too. 2)before a drug becomes completely legal, we should have a way of quantitizing the dosage in the body (like a breathalizer), to prevent people from driving under the influence or other irresponsible use that puts third party bystanders at risk.  As it stands, there is no way to quantitize most of the drugs and most DWI's dont stand up in court because they are a hesaid/shesaid arguement.  Bottom line, I dont want people on triple hit blue unicorn blotter driving while peaking. 3) companies should be able to get FDA "Seals of Quality" that basically states that the FDA randomly tests this product to insure that it is what it says it is chemically (not necessarily the effectiveness of the claims made by the company). I am an old drug user that quit several years ago.  You name it I have taken it, and as I have read through all these posts its really funny cause I used to rationalize drug use in the same ways.  Hell, we all did.  I still have friends that are either in jail or on the streets because of this lifestyle meanwhile they are still convinced that they are among the ones that can "handle it".  Its sad, really sad.  Yet it is their choice to live like that, and I will never take that away from them.  I want to live in a righteous country.  I dont believe you can be righteous or show virtue in the abscence of choice.  Take Iran for instance.  The people of this country have all elements of rightousness, yet they are not rightous because they lack the real choice to do the right thing.  They are forced too by law.  Only when you have complete freedom to do wrong and choose to do right, can you be rightous.  And that to me is really what drug laws boil down too.

finally, someone to back me up lol...i agree completely.

[pepsik]

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There simply has not been enough research done to justify your claim that you eventually "trip out" on lsd

That's personal experience, not every case is the same and personal chemistries vary. I can't think right now, but there was a study recently(maybe in the last 5 years) that noted that users of the drug can have a recurrent feeling of being on the drug even though the consumption was say 20 years ago due to the drug residing in the spinal fluid. A neurolgist or a pscychiatrist might have better information on the effects. I could get you a deffinitve answer in a few phone calls, but I'm swamped right now.

about the natural drugs, I was reffering to marijuana, mushrooms and salvia divinorum( good shit, way more hallucongenic than lsd, and still legal in the US) all the other shit is just ragweed that bums smoke.

[tupac]

lol, all the rest is not shit, i personally think salvia is shit, i hate the high, i feel more dizzy than anything and no hallucinations, tho i never wanted to smoke very much.....if u ever try peyote(or any mescaline containing cactus), lsa(in some seeds), or dmt(which i havent tried but cant wait to extract) i think ull change ur mind.

[pepsik]

tupac, personal experience is what i posted on the drugs, I'm a clinician and see fucked up people everyday, it's not a gov't study. I could give you names and phone numbers but federal law restricts me. Take my views or not, it seems your mind is made up anyway.

sorry, when i have more time i'll finish these answers abit more.

[tupac]

i guess my mind is made up, but so is urs, and i doubt any of this will change anyones mind...all i was saying is dont say the rest is shit, shrooms, weed, and salvia are nothing compared to some of the other naturals out there.

[damam]

QUOTE (pepsik @ Dec 2 2004, 01:40 AM)

That's personal experience, not every case is the same and personal chemistries vary.

That was the point of my first paragraph.  My exception with you is that your examples are not the norm.  They are outliers.  Every drug has outliers.  Its the nature of the beast.  If lsd really had that wide spread of an effect then 60% of my high school would have been dribbling idiots in psychiatric wards.

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I can't think right now, but there was a study recently(maybe in the last 5 years) that noted that users of the drug can have a recurrent feeling of being on the drug even though the consumption was say 20 years ago due to the drug residing in the spinal fluid. A neurolgist or a pscychiatrist might have better information on the effects. I could get you a deffinitve answer in a few phone calls, but I'm swamped right now.

My husbands a pscychiatrist.  But this is not really his area (he focuses on mentally retarded adults and children)

If your refering to flash backs, they are relatively common (although i have never had one).  The current thought is that they are enviromentally triggered.  Dont know if your a hibitual pot smoker, but i have a really easy way of demonstrating this if you are.  This only works is your a hibitual pot smoker, so I dont want to hear from you experimentalists saying it doesnt work.  First prepare some oregano, dry it out, etc then put it in the place where you keep your pot.  Next day, take out your pot, bong, lighter exactly as you would if you were going to get stoned, except load the oregano.  Then smoke it.  The first 10 - 30 min will feel just like you are stoned even though you smoked nothing.  Its the ritual of smoking the pot that causes the response.  This is so powerful that I was actually able to do this for about two years after I stopped smoking pot.  I used to smoke pot 2-3 times daily for about 5 years.

this is where hibitual drug use gets real interesting.  most of the heroin overdoses are due to an interuption in the drug taking ritual.  The ritual of taking heroin prepares the body for a certain dosage level.  An interuption in the ritual means the body isnt expecting it and it usually results in death.  This is also how people like my husband can give heroin addicts going through with drawl placebos and have them feel fine.

Bringing this back to the point, a flashback has nothing to do with alleged lsd in the system.  The subject generally say that something enviromental matched a previous lsd experience, and that generally causes the flashback.  Risidual lsd in the system is a theory, and it has never been proven or disproven.

Just for the record - I want to state that I dont think there is a good reason for taking recreational drugs.

[damam]

QUOTE (pepsik @ Dec 2 2004, 01:50 AM)

I'm a clinician and see fucked up people everyday, it's not a gov't study. I could give you names and phone numbers but federal law restricts me. Take my views or not, it seems your mind is made up anyway.

i almost asked in my previous post if you were worked in the medical field.

I dont doubt that you see lots of really messed up people.  The problem is that when someone is messed up, they go and see you.  Your not allowed to go out and randomly select the public so you get a misinterpreation of reality.  
My brother-in-law has the same problem.  Hes an AIDS researcher in San Francisco.  He has a really warped oppinion of the homosexual culture in america because of it.  Some of the stuff that he talks about would blow your mind.
My friends husband is a cop, and he basically thinks that all people are inherently evil again because thats all he sees.

I really am interested to hear of your experiences though . . .

[pepsik]

I think I might be biased on the subject.  The individuals in particular that I've run across all had alittle too much of the stuff in the 60's, maybe the impurities caused it, or maybe the habitual use, I don't know really.

I haven't had a "normal" day since I started doing this kindof stuff, I'm sure your husband has some interesting stories.


About the oregano, it gave me a headache  

The reality of legalization of all drugs is:

Society as we know it would crumble if all drugs where legalized. The reason being that both alcohol and tabacco get abused everyday, introducing everything else into the mix is kindof scary. I don't think it would solve the crime problem, the cartels would just be working for our government and the gangs will be tougher to get rid of since they won't have anything to charge them with until they stab each other or some innocent bystander. It's an idealistic concept but the dangers outweigh the benefits. Think about children, as a child I would dip into the liqour cabinet to see what the big deal was- say some coke or who knows what where laying around instead of the alcohol. Some people just aren't good parents, how many children do you think would suffer from the recreational drug use of their parents?

The possible solution:Legalizing soft drugs, treating the users of hard drugs, and locking up the pushers. Keep the prisons for the criminals.

[tupac]

yeah, it really is hard deciding on legalization or decriminalization and what it would do....the liberal part of me(which is probably 99.999% lol) makes me think all drugs should be legal, from a rights standpoint, but i see what ur saying about how it could hurt people...id be perfectly happy with legalizing soft drugs and decriminalizing the rest...i just dont think someone who uses hard drugs should not have to be locked away for a while for what they choose to do...then again decriminalizing hard drugs would increase the profits and activity of drug and crime organizations...that wouldnt happen if they were all legal...society wouldnt crumble, it didnt 100 years ago, it wouldnt now...all we can do is speculate, but one thing for sure is the system we have doesnt work, and that needs to change.

[FektionFekler]

You're an idiot.

[Baner]

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You're an idiot.

thanks for adding so much...

About that in my eyes statement, i was trying to say I call it poor man's coke, but it came out wrong.

I'll pick up at the last post, cause i don't feel like sifting thru the other ones...

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i just dont think someone who uses hard drugs should not have to be locked away for a while for what they choose to do

I wouldn't mind seeing something like underage cigs be put into effect here. If you sell the cigs to a minor, it's against the law, but if you're underage and caught with cigs, then there is no crime. This would put the people who dispense the drugs in jail, and keep the users out. I know it sounds a bit contradictory, since the user has to buy it somehwere, but it's the only thing I can see as working.
As for natural drugs, I was talking about the everyday drugs that the common person would see. I've been using drugs for about  years now, and I've never seen most of the other drugs you've talked about. I don't think the government would be into legalizing a drug that you can use once, and be dead from it, it it not have to do with the one persons body's unnatural reaction. ie heart failure do to the drug, but heart failure hasn't been documented with that drug before. make sense?
Also, if the governmnet is iffy on legalizing something as innocent as canibus, I highly doubt they would be ok with convienent stores selling bags of coke. The legalization of hard drugs sounds highly doubtable, so I tend to ignore that all together. If mj does get legalized, I might consider the legalization of some hard drugs.
Also with that quote, this might sound sick(and is totally untrue), but if I had sex with a 12 year old girl(even tho it was mutual on both sides) it'd be illegal. It's our choice, but the government restricts it, and for good reasons.

[The unProfessional]

The problem is that in all the free world, at least 60% of the population will always bitch.  I know that sounds strange... that means 10% of the population votes against EVERYTHING.  That's right... except it's probably more like 20%.  Now you know why nothing ever gets done.

So while much of the level-headed population sees marijuana as something harmless enough that we should make our own assessments, it'll remain illegal.  Many believe that it's symbolic - that legalization of MJ will only lead to legalization of everything.  People often fall for the Slippery Slope.  In the mean time, the people with the pens are catering to the extreme nutbars who can't make up their minds.  Thus, we don't break any new ground.

I'll add that I don't do any drugs other than my fair share of booze.  To me it has little to do with substances, and more to do with rights and freedom.

However, synthetic drugs and generally unsafe drugs (such as substances that magnify adrenaline and are proven to induce uninhibited, often violent behavior) should remain illegal.

Because if some asshole down the street who hates you happens to hop up on drugs X Y and Z and comes and kills your kid, you'll have something else to say about it.

But weed?  The asshole might come over and watch my TV for too long.  I can live with that.