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Author Topic: State On Democracy  (Read 286 times)

gronne

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State On Democracy
« on: November 05, 2004, 04:59:00 PM »

1. What is the purpose of democracy?

Democracy has been as natural as breathing air to the well developed countries. We are not at the state of questioning democracy anymore. Ever since democracy was introduced in Greece 2500 years ago it's grown stronger, and the society has become more intellectually aware. Democracy had an incredible boost when book-printing was made possible in the late 15th century, and the combined efforts of book and democracy have given us e.g. the computer and the television.
In democracies you let the people get presented to parties with various ideologies, and choose thereafter. In order to elect a party you must have more than 50% per cent or you will have to team up with others. This is the case of most democracies. The choice the people make should somewhat reflect their opinions. Most people would say this will further the society, and should therefore be it's purpose; to further the society. The obvious question then is; What is of favour to the society? Well that can be wildly discussed.


2. Where can the purpose of democracy fail?

In my opinion a democracy fails when less than 80% vote. It happens in many elections, but should be considered as a minimum. And there should be some kind of proof of political understanding, but then 80% wouldn't vote in the first place. In a democracy there should be basic rules of what can be presented in a political agenda e.g. a Nazi party would install a dictatorship. But there should be other rules all democracies MUST follow e.g. no prefered religion. A democracy should have at least four big parties.

3. Where has democracy failed?

We have seen several elections where the government controls the votes e.g. Iraq under Saddam. But the most important democratic failure happend when USA re-elected George W Bush. A president which has been proven to have mislead its people into war, and murdered innocent civilians. A president who fails to recognize any problems with pollution. A president who puts his religion as the most important factor. A president who use fear to get votes. A president who opposed of UN. A president who has LIED to his countrymen, was re-elected.

The most similar event I can come to think of is when Hitler's NSDAP was elected, only people didn't know very much about him, and he was considered as the man to face Stalin. However you (should) know about Bush after four years, but obviously you approve of his serious lies that have cost the lives of about 100,000 men in Iraq. Yet people often complain about how the germans could be so stupid to elect Hitler. Such irony.

Now, you really didn't have more than two candidates to choose between, which is a great failure in itself. And both are devoted catholics. But even if you had ten serious candidates you would probably still choose Bush. And that's a proof democracy really can fail.

Many americans don't even know who was your first president. How can such people vote? I met a then 28 year old american women about a year ago, and she believed europeans used Fahrenheight, and americans used Celsius... She was going to vote Bush... I doubt most americans are THAT stupid, but you get the point. You have access to such much information, yet know so little, that's really sad.

4. Is there a better alternative to democracy?

Well I don't really know, but something must be done. The only option I see as of now is to develop democracy further, and I'm talking about a huge leap. There are way too many problems with the current state. I have written some of my ideas in the text. Democracy should still be considered natural, but I would be very glad if the media wouldn't take it's current form for granted, but instead started discussing a more advanced basic form of democracy (yes, advanced basic form). UN should make a new definition of how to apply democracy. And then every nation that approves of this international form will have obvious benefits.
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Ween311

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State On Democracy
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2004, 05:30:00 PM »

Would you be singing the same tune if Kerry would have won the election?  wink.gif

I don't think there is anything wrong with the state of Democracy.  I think its working just fine in the US. Sure, there are some uneducated people here, but I think you'll find morons in any country you travel to.  

Will you ever consistantly have 80% of the population vote?  I don't know how you can make more people vote.  I don't think you can force people to vote.  Some people either don't care, are uninformed, or just don't want to have to choose between 2 candidates that they don't like.  I also don't think there should be a test for people to vote.  People still claim discrimination exists in standardized testing in school (i.e. SAT, FCAT, and other standardized tests) and those tests don't even have anything to do with your basic rights (like your right to vote).
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gronne

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State On Democracy
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2004, 06:36:00 PM »

QUOTE (Ween311 @ Nov 6 2004, 02:33 AM)
Would you be singing the same tune if Kerry would have won the election?  wink.gif

I don't think there is anything wrong with the state of Democracy.  I think its working just fine in the US. Sure, there are some uneducated people here, but I think you'll find morons in any country you travel to.  

Will you ever consistantly have 80% of the population vote?  I don't know how you can make more people vote.  I don't think you can force people to vote.  Some people either don't care, are uninformed, or just don't want to have to choose between 2 candidates that they don't like.  I also don't think there should be a test for people to vote.  People still claim discrimination exists in standardized testing in school (i.e. SAT, FCAT, and other standardized tests) and those tests don't even have anything to do with your basic rights (like your right to vote).

Would I be singing the same tune if Kerry got elected? No, did you read my text? If Kerry would've been elected I would recognize it as a working process in democracy. Now he mightn't have been a good candidate, but my purpose of the text was to say that if it would've been a healthy democracy you would NEVER re-elect Bush. What I'm saying is that maybe we should bring up thoughts on how democracies should work.

And to say the american democracy is just fine must be a joke. This election was considered "strong". If less than 60% of the people vote, it's not a "strong" democracy. No matter how you twist it, it cannot be considered a fine democracy.
And I'm not saying you should force anybody to vote, I'm saying it's not much of a democracy if only half of the population vote. That depends on something. You have the power to elect the most important person in the world, and even if this president has been extremely controversial, you can't manage to get more than 60% of the people to vote. That's not a fine democracy. What this depends on I'm not sure, but one factor is definitely because you only have two big parties. In my country we now have seven big parties to choose from. Several european countries have too low votes as well. But they don't claim to be the world's greatest democracy like USA do.

I didn't say there SHOULD be a test, but it was something to think about. I'm not satisifed with the current state of democracy in almost any country. Something must be done.
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melon

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State On Democracy
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2004, 01:58:00 AM »

I think its now pointless arguing over bush and how he got in.
The only thing i would say is that the electoral vote system does seem strange. I think maybe a change should be made so the popular vote wins (i know that would still be Bush), it just seems the fairer way to do things. Your system was setup long ago and times have chaged, maybe it could do with an overhaul.

The only thing that worries me about the whole election is that the rest of the world see it as the American public, by re-electing Bush, supporting his actions over the last four years. I have seen people being openly more hatefull towards your citizens since the election and it is worrying to think what Africa and the Middle East is thinking about now.
The level of hatred for America has just gone up and that is not a good thing.

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Das Waffen-SS

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State On Democracy
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2004, 01:19:00 PM »

QUOTE (melon @ Nov 7 2004, 11:01 AM)
I think maybe a change should be made so the popular vote wins (i know that would still be Bush), it just seems the fairer way to do things.

Tyrannei des Majorität
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K98

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State On Democracy
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2004, 08:00:00 PM »

QUOTE
The only thing i would say is that the electoral vote system does seem strange. I think maybe a change should be made so the popular vote wins (i know that would still be Bush), it just seems the fairer way to do things. Your system was setup long ago and times have chaged, maybe it could do with an overhaul.


I think it's a big strange that you have a queen when she has no power what so ever. The idea of a monarchy is outdated and times have changed. Your system needs overhauled. I think its also strange how England has no single written Consitution of your rights. That is outdated as well.




QUOTE
Would you be singing the same tune if Kerry would have won the election? 


No chance in HELL.
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pedro

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State On Democracy
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2004, 07:29:00 AM »

saying that the electorial college gives all states a say in the election is a load of crap.
think about it...the way it is now, they only campaign in the few battle ground states.  even as it is they dont go to the majority of the states to rally support, they only worry about battle ground states....
when you dont live in a BG state (i live in kentucky), it makes you feel like your vote doesnt even matter because I know that no matter if I go vote or not, my state will always be red.   It is a currupt system, and i think part of the reason we dont have larger voter turn out. think about it.  if you live in an historically red state, and you are a republican then you are going to think "it doesnt matter if I go vote or not, I know my state will vote republican" and if you are a demicrat you think the same thing.  that in itself is what discourages voters...

I'm not saying the EC should be done away with because that would be a drastic change and change isnt always welcome.  but it does need some serous restructuring.  
1. all states should have a number of electorial votes proportional to their population (sort of true now but not in all states)
2.  votes should be split in an appropriate ratio in relation to the voting of the state but not including fractions of votes.  for example, if a state has 8 electorial votes, and 40% of the people vote democrat, 50% vote republican, and 10% vote independant, then the 80 electorial votes should be devided accordingly (3 votes to democrat, 4 to republican, and one to the indapendant party. disteguarding the fractional parts of votes).

it would just make more sense like this.
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Extreme Agony

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State On Democracy
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2004, 08:07:00 AM »

Bush got re-elected, I voted for him, so I am happy about that.  However, I think that the EC needs to be done away with.  As far as where the candidates go and make promises, who cares, it's mostly lies and bullshit anyway.  Popular vote choice makes the most sense.  That said, melon, Bush wouldn't necessarily have won this election, because he may or may not have been running, since Al Gore would have been president.  More than the voting system needing restructuring, the government needs shrinking.  The US government is way too bloated and cost the tax payer way too much money.  I do not know what the 'perfect' or even 'better' solution to the goverment would be... but I do believe that the elections should be bassed on majority of all votes wins...
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Baner

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State On Democracy
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2004, 01:16:00 PM »

I liked the fact that Gronne mentioned Saddam being placed in power, and how that's corrupt, but when our president is voted in with the popular vote and electoral vote, it's hectic.

Let's compare
Saddam went to war with other nations with no jurisdiction.
Bush went to war for the same reason Clinton had his doubts about Saddam, WMDs.
Saddam murders his own people if they talk against the government.
Yet to see Bush do anything of the sort.
Saddam was placed in power.
The American people voted Bush in.

And somehow, Bush being in power is a worse example of democracy than Saddam!?

Sure, you talked to one moron who's a Bush supporter, I'm sure you could find the same amount of Kerry huggers that are just as stupid. Here's an idea, ask every person in America a few simple questions, and who they support, and have an accurate poll to post on this site for once.

I can't believe people are still making stupid excusses and comparing Bush to total dictators still. Get over it.

PS. Gronne, you didn't even help decide our president, why should you have a say in how we determine how our country runs?
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melon

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State On Democracy
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2004, 03:08:00 PM »

QUOTE
I think it's a big strange that you have a queen when she has no power what so ever. The idea of a monarchy is outdated and times have changed. Your system needs overhauled. I think its also strange how England has no single written Consitution of your rights. That is outdated as well.


er the queen is outdated noone would say otherwise. I dont know why but foriegn leaders are still in awe of her, even your own Bush when he met her was very apolagetic and bowing. I dont get it? She is more of a tourist attraction than anything else and it keeps the grannies happy.  And technically the queen still has a great deal of power, but it is never used in practice.
About the constitution of rights, i really dont know what the american version contains so i couldnt answer..
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pepsik

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State On Democracy
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2004, 05:16:00 PM »

QUOTE (pedro @ Nov 8 2004, 04:32 PM)

I'm not saying the EC should be done away with because that would be a drastic change and change isnt always welcome.  but it does need some serous restructuring.  
1. all states should have a number of electorial votes proportional to their population (sort of true now but not in all states)
2.  votes should be split in an appropriate ratio in relation to the voting of the state but not including fractions of votes.  for example, if a state has 8 electorial votes, and 40% of the people vote democrat, 50% vote republican, and 10% vote independant, then the 8 electorial votes should be devided accordingly (3 votes to democrat, 4 to republican, and one to the indapendant party. disteguarding the fractional parts of votes).

it would just make more sense like this.

That is dependent on state legislature. California just approved a similar kind of voter reform in the state constitution. Our EC votes go the to the top vote getter whether that person be in a bi-partisan party or in a "no name" third party.
We are not dividing the electoral college votes but making it a little more democratic as the previous legislature only allowed the EC votes to go to bi-partisan candidates.


dry.gif  a small step in a very bloated and flawed system.
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gronne

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State On Democracy
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2004, 10:56:00 AM »

QUOTE (Baner @ Nov 8 2004, 10:19 PM)
I liked the fact that Gronne mentioned Saddam being placed in power, and how that's corrupt, but when our president is voted in with the popular vote and electoral vote, it's hectic.

Let's compare
Saddam went to war with other nations with no jurisdiction.
Bush went to war for the same reason Clinton had his doubts about Saddam, WMDs.
Saddam murders his own people if they talk against the government.
Yet to see Bush do anything of the sort.
Saddam was placed in power.
The American people voted Bush in.

And somehow, Bush being in power is a worse example of democracy than Saddam!?

Sure, you talked to one moron who's a Bush supporter, I'm sure you could find the same amount of Kerry huggers that are just as stupid. Here's an idea, ask every person in America a few simple questions, and who they support, and have an accurate poll to post on this site for once.

I can't believe people are still making stupid excusses and comparing Bush to total dictators still. Get over it.

PS. Gronne, you didn't even help decide our president, why should you have a say in how we determine how our country runs?

Saddam comes from a country where you can't really say they've ever got a democracy. During Saddam's reign it couldn't be more faked. What Saddam did when he invaded Iran and Kuwait was to say the least terrible. But when USA is claiming to have a working democracy, and still re-elect the man that is the cause of about 100,000 peoples deaths in Iraq, something is VERY wrong. In the seventies there was a LARGE group of americans who realized the war in Vietnam was very wrong. Today, nothing resembles to that opposition. Sure, Bush is a hated man by the lefties in USA as well, but where's the organisation behind them? No one really fights him. The reason I think Bush getting re-elected being worse is his tremendeous power to rule other nations but USA. Btw, Bush had no legal jurisdiction from UN to invade Iraq. I wouldn't care much about USA if it wasn't because of USA's illegal international actions and for not giving a DAMN about the pollution. If you don't think we (non-americans) have the right to care about stuff that heavily affetcs us, you should reconsider yourself. So I don't care how you run your country apart from when it affects us. And the war in Iraq and your naive thoughts on the world pollution, does affect us. And we will continue to fight you on those issues.

TV-networks that are heavily partisan like Fox news shouldn't be legal in any democratic nation (Yes, I also refer to left-wing networks), at least not when they claim they're fair and balanced.

Colonel: I didn't say there was something better than democracy, but I really think we shouldn't take it for granted without questioning it. Democracy is considered to make it's third reform now, but I don't see much improvement.
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Baner

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State On Democracy
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2004, 11:48:00 AM »

QUOTE
re-elect

Exactly, the majority voted for the man they wanted, that's what a democracy is supposed to do, many people do base their votes on one event (ie the Iraq war), but us residents of America have other topics we have to base our vote on too. We have internal problems just like every other nation.

QUOTE
was a LARGE group of americans... Today, nothing resembles to that opposition.

Except for the 48% of the voters who voted aginst Bush. Look at some facts before you make assumptions.

QUOTE
because of USA's illegal international actions

I'm quite happy that Bush took the intiative to do something about Saddam. The UN are jsut a bunch of cowards who are too afraid to do anything, in fear of another World War (refer to the League of Nations). He had sanctions on him, we've seen the facts against him, and finally someone stepped up and took him out of power.

QUOTE
TV-networks

I agree, TV networks suck, that why I stay away from TV news, but with our first Amendment, the networks have their right to give whatever sided news they want.
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damam

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State On Democracy
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2004, 11:58:00 AM »

QUOTE
Sure, you talked to one moron who's a Bush supporter, I'm sure you could find the same amount of Kerry huggers that are just as stupid. Here's an idea, ask every person in America a few simple questions, and who they support, and have an accurate poll to post on this site for once.


I actually talked to someone who voted for kerry yesterday that does not understand why Clinton wont run again.  She was stunned to find out the presidents can only serve 8 years in office barring a national crisis, and thought it was a stupid and outdated law.  I can now see how Rome went from a republic to a dictatorship. blink.gif
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pepsik

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State On Democracy
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2004, 02:46:00 PM »

QUOTE (Baner @ Nov 9 2004, 08:51 PM)
I'm quite happy that Bush took the intiative to do something about Saddam. The UN are jsut a bunch of cowards who are too afraid to do anything, in fear of another World War (refer to the League of Nations). He had sanctions on him, we've seen the facts against him, and finally someone stepped up and took him out of power.



I don't think he took the initiative, I believe it was Daddy Bush asking him to clean up some of his mess from the previous administrations he was involved with. Afterall it was G. Bush Sr. as head of the CIA along with John Aschroft that sealed the iraqi weapons deal in order to keep pressure on Iran.

Baby Bush was a member of an advocacy group while he was still governor of texas pushing president clinton to invade Iraq. Iraq was a hidden agenda for him and always on his mind even before his presidency. The attacks on 9-11 just gave him an oppurtunity of twisting public opinion towards the invasion. White House officials that quit after the attack on 9-11, did so because the evidence pointed towards Afghanistan and the guy only had Iraq on his mind.

Saddam had it coming, my only issue with the invasion is that too much of the security is on our hands. Then take into consideration 10 years of famine and disease becuase of the sanctions blocking food or medicine into the country. In the end that equals bad news for our soldiers. But Kudos to GW for doing what he wanted to do in the first place.
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