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[pug_ster]

QUOTE (faynor @ Oct 23 2004, 12:09 AM)

I AGREE COMPLETELY thomes08. You should take every precaution before you cast your vote for that man.!!

After hearing from voters like you, I know who to vote for.

[dss311]

QUOTE

So why do we have to trust a bunch of lying veterans?

You are calling all these vets liars?  Doesn't it make more sense that maybe one individual like Kerry is lying rather than the entire squad?  If you were to break this down by odds, you would be a 3/20 longshot! (using the old vets 20 man photo)  Or another way to say it, you have a 15% chance of being right.   I will put my money on the sure bet!!!


DSS311

ps. I am supposing that all things are equal in my odds analysis.  Not some strange coincidence like the swiftvets are all convicted felons.....

ps for Thomes08:
Looks like our favorite link is once again updated & is getting to be a tight race.  

electoral-vote.com

[rahula]

[pug_ster]

QUOTE (dss311 @ Oct 23 2004, 12:44 AM)

In response to you pug_ster regarding the SwiftVets: I am unsure of the exact number of vets against Kerry.  I was just guessing (100) after seeing the commercial of how many were standing against him.  I know the last count that supported him was 3.  This original link shows who supports Kerry and who does not.  (Use your mouse for the rollover image) Pug_ster Quote You are calling all these vets liars?  Doesn't it make more sense that maybe one individual like Kerry is lying rather than the entire squad?  If you were to break this down by odds, you would be a 3/20 longshot! (using the old vets 20 man photo)  Or another way to say it, you have a 15% chance of being right.   I will put my money on the sure bet!!!

Yes, I am saying that those majority of those vets are Liars.

This is the offical declassified documents of Kerry's incident on that day.

A few days ago Nightline showed a story about Kerry's Vietnam Battle on how he got the Silver Star.  The account in that document basically matched of the accounts of what the locals in vietnam recalled.  Well, you can read the rest here.

http://abcnews.go.co...story?id=166434

John O'Neill was questioned by Nightline about this and he dodged questions like an idiot.  And yes, those dozen vets are liars.

Looke like you are another uninformed Republican Voter.

[dss311]

QUOTE

Looke like you are another uninformed Republican Voter.

QUOTE

Yes, I am saying that those majority of those vets are Liars.

Are you challenging me in regards to Politics?    The uninformed is yourself.  The vets have contended several issues about Kerry's potential leadership.  Not just one day's event.  If Kerry is so believable, why has he not released form 180 revealing is military records?  Don't you think it is strange he was discharged in 1978, 6 years after his service ended?  I took the liberty and looked up the total number of vets against Kerry and the number is 250!!!!  Do you not get it pugster?  Your long shot odds are now 3/253.  Simple math shows you now only have a 1.1% chance of being correct!  LMAO @ Pug_ster

So as you liberals go, you will now lie or defend a stupid position.  What will this one be pug_ster?  Do you continue to assert 250 Veterans are all liars, or do you have another stance?  Maybe you can go with the conspiracy theory I suggested in an earlier thread.  If not, try to make up a plausible scenario that we may believe.  When it comes down to it pug_ster, you are in denial and just a Bush hater. You can not defend this position with any amount of credibility.




DSS311

Can't wait for your next uneducated reply....




For the Record
I believe pug_ster will continue to insult the 250 vets and call them ALL liars.  Hey Haven't you also called Bush a liar?

[estin]

bush is a complete liar. bush is depending on all these anti-abortion born again christian morons to blindly beleive all of his statements because the church says so.  i've noticed all the republicans in my area are either extremely old and old fashioned, or extreme christians that think anything but christian beleifs are wrong.  or the combination of both.  

he says over and over how there isn't gonna be a draft yet he keeps adding more people to the draft board.  all the other past presidents were cutting people and money from this board yet bush adds to it..................pretty funny for someone so dead set on "were not having a draft"  

only people that are voting for bush are wealthy people who's main goal in life is to get even richer, and one issue voters against abortion.

[mattyj25]

I would have voted for Carol Brawn-Mosley or Wesley Clark before Kerry and most certainly before Bush.  But with the choice between these two guys, I have to go with Kerry.  You might think that Kerry will invade N.Korea but he hasn't said or made any of those actions so all I have to go on is how Bush has handled things for the past 4 years.  We can make assumptions all we want, but I honestly don't think Kerry would go into N. Korea, Especially not now with resources so scarce.  I think he'd do the intelligent thing, get other nations into talks and like Clark said last night during a town hall meeting, they'd bait them into doing the right thing.  Better than war and more dead.

I just love though how so many of the people out there saying they are so for this war and they truely believe that Iraq was and is a threat to us, yet I don't see them lining up to defend the good ol' US of A.  It's easier to talk on the side lines and blindly listen to the President and disregard everything from the opposition then to actually do something about it if it's that important to you.  I wonder how many people would be for a war if they had to participate in it?  Not many.  

There are always better options than going to war.  Even former presidents are speaking out against it.  

It's a shame that in the year 2004 we are in the situation we are in now.   Bitterly divided, thousands dying and religeous extremist trying to throw their morals and values on to others and onto each other from one religion to another.  

[pug_ster]

QUOTE (dss311 @ Oct 23 2004, 01:57 AM)

Are you challenging me in regards to Politics?    The uninformed is yourself.  The vets have contended several issues about Kerry's potential leadership.  Not just one day's event.  If Kerry is so believable, why has he not released form 180 revealing is military records?  Don't you think it is strange he was discharged in 1978, 6 years after his service ended?  I took the liberty and looked up the total number of vets against Kerry and the number is 250!!!!  Do you not get it pugster?  Your long shot odds are now 3/253.  Simple math shows you now only have a 1.1% chance of being correct!  LMAO @ Pug_ster So as you liberals go, you will now lie or defend a stupid position.  What will this one be pug_ster?  Do you continue to assert 250 Veterans are all liars, or do you have another stance?  Maybe you can go with the conspiracy theory I suggested in an earlier thread.  If not, try to make up a plausible scenario that we may believe.  When it comes down to it pug_ster, you are in denial and just a Bush hater. You can not defend this position with any amount of credibility.

250?  The issue that I am talking about is the incident at 2/28/1969.  From what I understand it, these Veterans accused Kerry that he didn't deserve the purple heart and silver star at that day.  These Swiftvets for Lies accused Kerry that he didn't take any fire from the enemy and 'ran away' when one of the swiftboats got hit.  The documents and the accounts from the vietnamese people (from Nightline) whom where there on that day says different.

Were there 250 or even 100 veterans whom were there on that day who witness this incident in 2/28/1969?  Imagine the senario at that moment when those soldiers at Vietnam being attacked would they 1) try to save their asses or 2) stare at Kerry's boat as if he ran away?  One person's account said that they are too busy to save their ass.

Another thing, how many of those 250 veterans actually knew Kerry while he served in Vietnam?  From what I know that these veterans hate Kerry because what he did after he did his duty in his tour in Vietnam.  That's another issue.

Before deciding to flame me, read the articles that I wrote.  Like I said, the only person you try to make an ass of is yourself.

[thomes08]

QUOTE (dss311 @ Oct 23 2004, 12:44 AM)

Thomes08, Those  of us on Bush's side could make the same assertion.  Bush is taking precautionary actions to make sure WMDs do not get in the hands of terrorists. (could you imagine someone like Ted Kazinski getting a hold of one?)  All of the intelligence gathered (US, British, Israel, Others) even suggested their were WMDs.  Maybe Sadam was just trying to make everyone in the region think he had them, but he went against all sanctions imposed by the UN which was his mistake.    I am glad to see the United States cleaning up the middle east and liberating the Iraqis.   Hopefully additional terrorist will be taken down in the near future like Usama & Al Zawari.  In the long run I expect Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other nearby countries will eventually become more civil and less hostile.  If this indeed happens, we all win. In response to you pug_ster regarding the SwiftVets: I am unsure of the exact number of vets against Kerry.  I was just guessing (100) after seeing the commercial of how many were standing against him.  I know the last count that supported him was 3.  This original link shows who supports Kerry and who does not.  (Use your mouse for the rollover image) Pug_ster Quote You are calling all these vets liars?  Doesn't it make more sense that maybe one individual like Kerry is lying rather than the entire squad?  If you were to break this down by odds, you would be a 3/20 longshot! (using the old vets 20 man photo)  Or another way to say it, you have a 15% chance of being right.   I will put my money on the sure bet!!! DSS311 ps. I am supposing that all things are equal in my odds analysis.  Not some strange coincidence like the swiftvets are all convicted felons..... ps for Thomes08: Looks like our favorite link is once again updated & is getting to be a tight race.   electoral-vote.com

yeah, but a precaution shouldn't cost 20,000 lives with no reason reliable enough to have it for more than 6 months.  Precautions are supposed to stop catostophic events, not be one.

[estin]

QUOTE (thomes08 @ Oct 23 2004, 04:17 AM)

yeah, but a precaution shouldn't cost 20,000 lives with no reason reliable enough to have it for more than 6 months.  Precautions are supposed to stop catostophic events, not be one.

well said man, well said. i wish there was more people that could see this.  especially bush/cheney supporters.

[dss311]

QUOTE

Before deciding to flame me, read the articles that I wrote.

Pug_ster,

You began the mild flame with the personal statment; "Looke like you are another uninformed Republican Voter."  I just responded to your assertion and defended my position on the subject.  I am not as uninformed as you suggest.  I try to keep myself VERY informed on current politics & party policies.  I can back up all (most) of my arguments with facts rather than opinions.  XS is a great forum for politcal debates.  The moderators allow both sides to get in heated debates (and mild flames) with out banning us for our opinions or comments.

Regarding the ABC article, I have read from other sources the same information regarding the 1969 event.  I do not accept the accounts of Vietnam villagers over our American Veterans.  If the scale was balanced with 50% vets favoring Kerry and 50% against, then I might somewhat believe Kerry.  The overwhelming amount of vets against Kerry leaves only one conclusion in my mind.  

QUOTE

From what I know that these veterans hate Kerry because what he did after he did his duty in his tour in Vietnam.

This is not accurate.  Swiftvets make several contentions regarding Kerry's leadership.  They have direct knowledge regarding events/medals/statements/etc. made by Kerry.  These vets are a mix of Democrats, Republicans, & Independents.  Here is a link regarding the the facts as Swiftvets see it:

SwiftVets FAQs



I will continue to comment on liberal threads including yours as a counter balance to your arguments up until the election.  However, you can also count on me to bite back when I am directly challenged or flamed.  Not trying to be an ass, just not going to be pushed around either.  BTW, I actually do enjoy your, Thomes08, and other liberal comments on this board.   Believe it or not, I have actually learned a few thing from you guys!   Hopefully you can say the same in regards to me....


DSS311  


Talk to you guys on later...Have to go now and MOD a friends Xbox. (2.6 ex)


ps thomes08 - saw your reply,  but out of time to properly respond.

ps mattyj25 -  I may be in the wrong for personally attacking you because you are gay.  It just is a bad trait I have picked up over the years regarding gays.  I do however respect your rights and opinions even though I feel they are in contrast with my own. Feel free to hit me back with a flame, I deserve it....  

[pug_ster]

QUOTE (dss311 @ Oct 23 2004, 05:03 AM)

Pug_ster, You began the mild flame with the personal statment; "Looke like you are another uninformed Republican Voter."  I just responded to your assertion and defended my position on the subject.  I am not as uninformed as you suggest.  I try to keep myself VERY informed on current politics & party policies.  I can back up all (most) of my arguments with facts rather than opinions.  XS is a great forum for politcal debates.  The moderators allow both sides to get in heated debates (and mild flames) with out banning us for our opinions or comments. Regarding the ABC article, I have read from other sources the same information regarding the 1969 event.  I do not accept the accounts of Vietnam villagers over our American Veterans.  If the scale was balanced with 50% vets favoring Kerry and 50% against, then I might somewhat believe Kerry.  The overwhelming amount of vets against Kerry leaves only one conclusion in my mind.   This is not accurate.  Swiftvets make several contentions regarding Kerry's leadership.  They have direct knowledge regarding events/medals/statements/etc. made by Kerry.  These vets are a mix of Democrats, Republicans, & Independents.  Here is a link regarding the the facts as Swiftvets see it: SwiftVets FAQs I will continue to comment on liberal threads including yours as a counter balance to your arguments up until the election.  However, you can also count on me to bite back when I am directly challenged or flamed.  Not trying to be an ass, just not going to be pushed around either.  BTW, I actually do enjoy your, Thomes08, and other liberal comments on this board.   Believe it or not, I have actually learned a few thing from you guys!   Hopefully you can say the same in regards to me.... DSS311   Talk to you guys on later...Have to go now and MOD a friends Xbox. (2.6 ex) ps thomes08 - saw your reply,  but out of time to properly respond. ps mattyj25 -  I may be in the wrong for personally attacking you because you are gay.  It just is a bad trait I have picked up over the years regarding gays.  I do however respect your rights and opinions even though I feel they are in contrast with my own. Feel free to hit me back with a flame, I deserve it....

Okay, I mean what I said because I don't think you know the truth.  At least you seem more informed than faynor.

I was talking about those Swiftvets claiming that Kerry lied on on 2/28/69 about the metals he deserved on that day.  The documents about what happened on that day are real, and BJ was the person gave me the link to this document.  I don't know if you have seen Nightline on 10/14/04.  But they got Nightline talked to the local people in Vietnam where the incident took place who don't even know Kerry or any other swiftvets by name could recall what happened that day and what they said matches what was said in the document.

Afterwards Koppel talked to John O'Neill who belong to the Swiftvets about why does this conflict to what Swiftvets talking about.  O'Neill (like you) could've said about the story about there are more people who are against kerry and saying this incident is a lie.  But instead O'Neill was bitching about something else.

There was only one discrepency between Vietnamese's account and Kerry's account of that incident.  It was about the description of the guy whom Kerry killed carrying the RPG.  The Vietnamese guy said it was a big guy wearing a black leotard.  O'Neill was complaining about that according to Kerry's book, it was a little guy wearing a white lioncloth.  And O'Neill was being un-cooporative instead trying to talk about other subjects.

The fact is that in the website you showed, NONE of them ever disputed about what happened on that day.  Whereas, a few months back they caused this controversy saying that this was a lie.  Yes, they all said that Kerry is unfit and other stuff, but it doesn't make Kerry a liar about this incident.

You can give me all these numbers about these swiftvets who are against Kerry, but I have not seen any proof that they said that Kerry lied on that incident.   Bush-Cheney is not talking about this incident so you raising questions about it is like beating a dead horse.

[EverythingButAnAnswer]

QUOTE (pug_ster @ Oct 23 2004, 07:52 AM)

I don't know if you have seen Nightline on 10/14/04.  But they got Nightline talked to the local people in Vietnam where the incident took place who don't even know Kerry or any other swiftvets by name could recall what happened that day and what they said matches what was said in the document.

Remember Nightline did the most thorough background check known to man (remember not only did this happen over 30 years ago, but the average human brain has the ability to recall insignificant events with relative ease. Also just for the record we won the Vietnam War, so it is after all a democracy not a totalitarian communist state) to ensure the validity of those Vietnamese commenting on the incident. I'm beginning to feel like no one is going to take me seriousry . It looks like what we need is a montage, yeh it's gunna take a montage... I guess what I'm trying to say is Pearl Harbor sucked, and I miss you.

[dss311]

It appears we are arguing two separate points.  You are arguing one swiftboat veteran (John O'Neill) lied in regards to the Feb 28, 1969 event that Kerry was awarded a Silver Star.  And more specifically, O'Neill  lied in his book “Unfit for Command” which details Kerry lying in regards to the events of that specific day.   To make a judgment regarding who is lying you would have to either believe veteran O'Neill's account or a Vietnamese's account from 35 years ago.  I would tend to believe O'neill's story despite the possible factual document you have linked to.  Further investigation may yield you are correct but I have my reservations.  Also, As you noted, I to have not seen any additional vets dispute Kerry's claimed events of Febuary 2, 1969.

 I am contending that two hundred and fifty (250) Swift boat veterans are on the record questioning Kerry's fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief.  That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam. You can research my comments/facts by visiting swiftvets.com.  I assure you if these facts were  misleading or erroneous, the press would have ripped them up by now by proving they didn't serve with Kerry or other inaccuracies.   Why would 250 veterans risk their reputation by making claims like this against Kerry?  It is obviously not for fame, fortune, or prestige.  

 You have made the blanket statements like “how many of those 250 veterans actually knew Kerry while he served in Vietnam?”  The answer is EVERYONE of them.    Another statement from you was “those dozen vets are liars.”  Which specific vet (besides your O'Neill contention) is lying and about what?  Do you have any facts or articles I can research to validate your claims?  Or are these just broad statements you are writing hopping others will believe your claims?  I am the type of individual who likes to research as many sources as possible and then make a conclusion with the facts at hand.  


 Last comment and I will give back this thread.  You asked me “I have not seen any proof that they (additional swift vets) said that Kerry lied on that incident”.  I am quite sure that I never made a statement suggesting this.  My only statements ask “Why are 250 Swift Vets against Kerry for President”?


DSS311

Footnote: A little inaccurate/misleading number was mentioned in my earlier posts.  I claimed only 3 Swift Vets favor Kerry.  The actual number is about 13.  The three men in the photo that served with Kerry were OICs (Officers In Charge) in Coastal Division 11.

[estin]

you guys argue kerry's service record but bush was in the whoo fucking hoo air national guard.  and not to mention AWOL for like a year.  then his vice president dick cheney never even served because he had like over 5 deferments.