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[gronne]

QUOTE (johnnobts @ Oct 13 2004, 09:06 PM)

gronne, diehard atheists (think dr. michael martin) do not believe in the soul.  now you may not belive in God, which technically would make you an "a" (without)- "theist" (God), but still you believe in something spiritual: the idea that the soul exists, but God does not.  seems like a contradictory statement in my opinion though.

Nice, because it doesn't to me. I don't believe in anything spiritual at all. I believe, but can't know, that the soul dies like the rest of the body. The soul is what makes me being able to control myself and not you. I don't see it as something spiritual at all. I can only be myself and control my own limbs. It's hard to explain, but it's not a spiritual thing to me. I don't mean soul they way you do, I guess.

[blueshogun96]

2. Of course there is a god, I don't think the universe formed itself.

EDIT: Here's a way to solve this, if you kill yourself, you will see if there is a heaven or hell (chances are you will be in hell if it exists).

[sgcgirl52]

I like the way this convo is going.  Personally,  I am an Ashkanazi(SP?) Conservative Jew. That means that I am european jew (even if I'm american) rather than a Safardic (SP?) ( Isreali or middle eastern jew).  They do shorter versions of things such as haftorah parshas and prayers because during an exil they lost parts of the religion(or somehting like that) they also pernounce somethings different.  The Conservative part means that I am between Orthodox and Reformed.  Basically, Orthodox and Hasiedics are very religious (hasiedis are rather scary in their practice and a a tad ratical and some are full fledged ratical..anyway) and do everything in hebrew.  The women were wigs and skirts and no leather products and the men kippot and tzetzet and other such things.  Reformed do almost everything in English and like a Jewish-light of sorts.  so I am betwwen those groups.  We do a mix of English and Hebrew.  Have Torah services on Saturdays but myabe not all of them. A good healthy mix of both.

Now I would like to be more religous.  At the present moment I'm not so much.  I blame that on my parnets moving me to a county that had only 44 jewish families when we moved.  They could have moved us one county over and been a part of the 2nd largest Jewish population in the country but nooo.  So I don't get as much of the culture that I want to.  Hell, including me there are onely 6 jews in my class.  Seriously only 6 (2 girls 4 guys).  I want to join USY but the closest chapter is a good 20+ minutes away depending on traffic.

But the things that I do know about my religion tht I love is the fact that we can question things.  Hell they ask us to.  THEy don't want us to just lay back and take it as they say it.  Personally, I believe in reincarnation even if my religion doesn't exactly. but I do believe thatafter death we all go to a pergatory (not the Catholic sub-hell like purgatory..no the Jewish version).  See we don't believe in hell.  We believe that there is evil but nothing is puer evil and subsequently no pure good.  That it is your choice to decide how you live your life.  Live in doing good and being good, or except evil and let that grow in you.  Ne way in Purgatory, one is faced with their personal dibets(deamons for lack of a better word, or eveil sprits) and the way they lived their life and to accept the fact that you've died.  Make a transiton of sorts.  Now for a good person with prayers form thei family and friends helping them, they can leave this purgatory after a year or so, but if you still haven't been able to come to grips with things and are still being chased by your dibets(literally) then you stay another year.and so on and so on.

To be jewish I think I have a choice.  Its not all about fear.  Its about accepting what you've done or do and take responsiblity while thanking G-d for allowing you to have this choice.  See in the Torah compared to Bible, G-d gave man a choice in Edan.  Adam knew the rick and so did Chava (Eve's real name btw), and they could make the choice.  It wasn't a fear thing.  I mean in Brit. Lit. we had to read an exerpt formt he bible because it was an example of Renisance writing or something like that.  There was an exerpt for Genise and I figured it would be the story that I was taught in hebrew school but it was differnt.  The entire tone of it was fear and to be honest I didn't like that.  Jews don't do the Fear, ou must do it my way or your damned to Hell..G-d damn you.  No were more about choice and being allowed to choose and letting yourself basically be good and evil but in the correct propotion almos t like ying-yang kinda thing.  Really I think that is actually the biggest dofference between Jews and Christians.  But I guess you could say that being jeiwhs to me is about asking questions and chooseing how I will live.

Sorry for the rant.

Shalom out,
~*~Temma~*~

[Corspegrinder99]

QUOTE (EmperorPsiblade @ Sep 28 2004, 11:27 PM)

not to mention Christianity's "conversion" of "savages." Atheist.... I am my own god....

couldnt have said it better myself    

[Mr. Chips]

well said cainedna.
you make valid points.
I don't think you are a fool at all, and neither should anyone else.
In the bible, the verse "the fool hath said there is no god" is referring to not specifically idiots, but those who are ignorant.  There is a huge difference between ingnorance and idiocy.
God created the world in such a way that his existence would be obvious to us.  And I beleive that strongly.  Even most of those who are living in the most desperate conditions will recognize it for what it is.

If you start to see yourself as a tiny peice of a giant puzzle, you are one the right track.

Gronne, you've been sharing your ideas which has been helpful.  I don't want to force my ideas on you...but clearly there is unexplained occurences, as caindena said.  Even science cannot explain it all.

My favorite quote:
"The only thing that we can know is that we know nothing,
and that is the highest flight of human wisdom." -Leo Tolstoy

[blueshogun96]

QUOTE (cainedna @ Oct 15 2004, 09:10 AM)

Why can't you accept that there are mysteries in the universe? The physics model of the universe is far from complete. Your perceptions of the world are limited, and inherently flawed. Even with an intellect as advanced as ours, it only stems from a basic need to survive. We know we need to propagate, because our genes have those instructions built into them. We know we need to survive to maturity in order to do so. We fear death, because we need to reach that age to do so. By fearing death, we developed the idea of afterlife. I don't think this is an odd concept at all. If you've decided that among the hundreds of theories about the forces around us we have yet to understand, you've chosen one, and it brings you comfort, more power to you. Personally, I'm all right knowing that I'm a fool, but that I don't try to deceive myself otherwise.

Also, The big bang theory was never proven and it can't.  If there was real proof, then it would be called the Big Bang Fact, would it or would it not?

Mr. Chips, I like the way you said that, it actually makes sense

[Maximumbeing]

It would be called the Law of the Big Bang, which ironically is also the name of a porno movie on the market today.

[Baner]

QUOTE

It would be called the Law of the Big Bang, which ironically is also the name of a porno movie on the market today.

...All those science nerds out there doing a research project will be taken to porn sites lol.
"But Mom, It's for a Biology project!"

My only arguemnet against evolution and the Big Bang is that Humans came from the same single celled organism that a blade of grass came from. Oh, and the fact that the universe exsisted before it and time exsisted. And that everything was formed from a particle the size of an atom... Alright, so I have a couple of arguements about Big Bang...

[Baner]

 

What irritates me (not saying it has happend in this topic) is when people dfending the Big Bang, and downplaying God, ask how God was there already, but the Big Bang theory is based around the same thing. An atom which exploded and created everything, but where did it come from?
I do believe in a lesser form of evoluton, us coming from primative apes, animals evolving to adapt to their enviroments, etc. I just can't comprehend me being a distant cousin to my chia pet.
I heard that scientist are relying less on the Big Bang theory, and adopting a new one, but I forgot what it was called .

QUOTE

it's just as possible that we're simply part of a science experiment by some advanced system we can't comprehend, and that our perceptions have been deliberately set up this way.

Wouldn't that be called Christianity? God placing us on this planet and giving us life.

QUOTE

we'd understand it if we only had the tools?

The only tool we need is a way to look into the past, whether it's a fossil, or some sort of machine.

[Cool_Z]

This may be a crazy thought, but to a degree I think modern science can be tied in  with Christianity, despite popular belief. In the Holy Bible, the book of Genesis says in chapter 1:3-5

"3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day."

Now when you read on into it farther, it says in 1:14-19

"14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day. "

So The Sun, Moon, and stars were not created until day 4, according to the Bible. So if you were to say that the Sun and Moon were there in the beginning according to the Bible, you are FALSE. So we ask ourself, ok then, what was the light. I honestly don't know what this light was, but it could be that before the 4th day, Thousands of years could have passed because we measure the Earths complete rotation, to see the day, then night, then day again, one days length, 24 hours. But before the Sun, before the 4th day, what was the measure of time? Well, does God go by our time...no. That is why prayers are answered in God's time not ours, whether they be minutes, hours, days, months, or years. So maybe to say that God created the day in literally 7 days is true, or you could look at it like the first 3 days, thousands or millions of years could have passed. Or even after the sun was created man wasn't created until day 6 to govern over creation, so maybe time wasn't judged until day 6. Who knows....That is just my opinion on modern science and Christianty.

[Baner]

[Cool_Z]

Thanks Baner

[Baner]

Relates to how scientists state that it took billions of years for the universe to form, which this explains.

[Cool_Z]

That's probably because of celebrity popularity ,or just being stuck up, that they not attend a normal church, but pay her religious advisers tens or thousands to give them spiritual advice when needed.

To me, I think these stars should go to church because just having advisors takes away from one of the key ingredients of any church, that is, the community. To fellowship with each other, instead of only one person about their spiritual life and how to live properly according to their religion.

[johnnobts]

agreed.