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Author Topic: How Good A Follower Are You(Religion)?  (Read 369 times)

shadolnk

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« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2004, 06:06:00 PM »

QUOTE (darkslider802 @ Jul 30 2004, 12:18 AM)

yes i does ,but it doesnt make sense that people evovle form apes ,just because we have smililar charaistics, i can breath ,well a dog can breath i can run ,a dog can run ,that doesnt mean i evoled from a dog ,

The theory of evolution doesn't suggests you evolved from apes... it suggests we all share a common ancestor.
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shadolnk

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« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2004, 12:45:00 AM »

QUOTE (jesusphreak @ Jul 30 2004, 05:55 AM)

That common ancestor is generally thought of as being apes, though.

Yeah, they're thought to be more apelike than human.
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..[[ModBoxMaster]]..

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« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2004, 03:19:00 AM »

rolleyes.gif  rolleyes.gif
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xFusioNx

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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2004, 03:31:00 PM »

wink.gif
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Owtlaw333

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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2004, 05:49:00 PM »

QUOTE (..[[ModBoxMaster)
]..,Jul 30 2004, 03:22 AM] who ever put anything other than belive in god.. sorry but yall are all going to hell.. but no offense i hope ya have a good time in the lake of fire... but dont mind us well just be up in paradise while yall burn with hitler...the point is if you dont belive in god ur still going to hell.. this means you too darkslider802... if you do belive in god and dont worship him.. you will go to hell but.. suit yourself...  just make sure to say your prayers... on the bed b4 u go to bed and u will be saved lol rolleyes.gif  rolleyes.gif

And I'm just gunna refer you to my posts made on this thread... don't be such an ignorant prick.
EDIT:haha... forgot tha link  tongue.gif

As for this...
QUOTE
"Most advocates of evolutionism subscribe to a set of naturalistic and mechanistic—if not humanistic—philosophical presuppositions, attaching a “fundamentalist” bias to their perspective."

Ur telling me that creationist aren't biased?  I'd say creationists are tha most biased.  I didn't read tha whole site, but I can already tell it's full of shit just by that statement right there.
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rms2001

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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2004, 02:14:00 PM »

QUOTE (EmperorPsiblade @ Jul 22 2004, 08:29 PM)
lemme put it this way: if there is a god... i'm going straight to hell ph34r.gif

Cool, another chance to prove “Hell” doesn’t exists.

Where in the Bible dose it say “hell” is even real? It doesn’t. This is one of man’s teaching. Mostly brought about by the Catholics. Same gos for Purgatory. The Bible makes no referee to it, and is you really research it, it’s a pagan belief that sins can be “burned away with fire”

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" If the dead are conscious of nothing, that means they wouldn’t be conscious of a hell. Do you think a loving God would create such a place for endless torture? God IS love as stated at 1 John 4:8 "He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."

Also, when a person dies he is forgiven for his sins. Romans 6:7 states that "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." When you die and you are acquitted from your sins, how can you go to hell to suffer for your sins when all your sins have been acquitted? There are many other things in the Bible that prove Hell isn’t real and that a loving God would not create such a place.



I used the New World Translation to prove my point.
I’m sure most of you use the King James version of the Bible, and just to show what I’m saying is true I will show what the KJV has to say, it more or less says the same thing.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing.

1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin.
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Owtlaw333

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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2004, 02:34:00 PM »

QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 4 2004, 02:17 PM)
Cool, another chance to prove “Hell” doesn’t exists.

......
(just cuttin' down on tha size smile.gif )
......
Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Are you mormon? (Just curious)
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rms2001

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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2004, 03:56:00 PM »

QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 4 2004, 03:37 PM)
Are you mormon? (Just curious)

No I'm not a Mormon. Do the Mormons use the New World Translation? On the other hand, whens the last time you say a Mormon with the Bible?

But to answer your question, no I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Witness. As for using the KJV of the Bible at the end of my post, it was only to show that not even the KJV says theres a hell.
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Owtlaw333

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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2004, 04:58:00 PM »

QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 4 2004, 03:59 PM)
No I'm not a Mormon. Do the Mormons use the New World Translation? On the other hand, whens the last time you say a Mormon with the Bible?

But to answer your question, no I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Witness. As for using the KJV of the Bible at the end of my post, it was only to show that not even the KJV says theres a hell.

I don't know who uses what bible... I was just wondering because of tha fact that you don't believe in hell (just like mormons)
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rms2001

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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2004, 05:16:00 PM »

QUOTE (Owtlaw333 @ Aug 4 2004, 06:01 PM)
I don't know who uses what bible... I was just wondering because of tha fact that you don't believe in hell (just like mormons)

The Mormons don't believe in hell huh? At least they got some thing right.

Guess its true, you do learn some thing every day.  wink.gif
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thomes08

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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2004, 05:35:00 PM »

you're not going to come to my door and try to tell me stupid shit are you?
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Owtlaw333

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« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2004, 05:56:00 PM »

I'm not bashing anyone, but why is it that you guys (whitnesses) go door to door to preech to everyone?  Ur the only religious group that I know of that does that.  It's kinda like pop-ups and spam.  If I wanted it, I think I'd ask for it or persue it myself.
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EmperorPsiblade

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« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2004, 06:02:00 PM »

QUOTE (rms2001 @ Aug 4 2004, 04:17 PM)
Cool, another chance to prove “Hell” doesn’t exists.

Where in the Bible dose it say “hell” is even real? It doesn’t. This is one of man’s teaching. Mostly brought about by the Catholics. Same gos for Purgatory. The Bible makes no referee to it, and is you really research it, it’s a pagan belief that sins can be “burned away with fire”

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" If the dead are conscious of nothing, that means they wouldn’t be conscious of a hell. Do you think a loving God would create such a place for endless torture? God IS love as stated at 1 John 4:8 "He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."

Also, when a person dies he is forgiven for his sins. Romans 6:7 states that "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin." When you die and you are acquitted from your sins, how can you go to hell to suffer for your sins when all your sins have been acquitted? There are many other things in the Bible that prove Hell isn’t real and that a loving God would not create such a place.



I used the New World Translation to prove my point.
I’m sure most of you use the King James version of the Bible, and just to show what I’m saying is true I will show what the KJV has to say, it more or less says the same thing.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing.

1 John 4:8 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin.

ummm i meant like that i've done alot of horrible things....   huh.gif

is yelling at noobs a sin?
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rms2001

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« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2004, 08:06:00 PM »

QUOTE (EmperorPsiblade @ Aug 4 2004, 07:05 PM)
ummm i meant like that i've done alot of horrible things....   huh.gif

is yelling at noobs a sin?

Huh?
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rms2001

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« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2004, 07:34:00 PM »

jesusphreak, your wrong.

Hell


Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl´ and its Greek equivalent hai´des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge´en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?
Eccl. 9:5, 10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going." (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave," KJ, Kx; “hell," Dy “the world of the dead," TEV.0

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?
Ezek. 18:4: "The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die."  (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?
Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?
Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?
Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?
Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?
“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana(1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl´ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai´des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge´en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Versiontransliterates hai´desas “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai´des it uses that same translation for ge´en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge´en·na as “hell,” as it does hai´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?
Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?
Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou´] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba´sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?
Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge´en·nan tou py·ros´ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?
Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?
Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?
Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See Lu 16:14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?
In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.
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