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[gronne]

This forum is extremely divided, yet I get more confused the more I read. It seems it's ALL about bashing the other side.

I'm a socialist, or close to a communist. I know very well why I stand for my opinions, eventhough I'm not fully certain what I think about all issues at all times. And when I'm not certain I try to gather as much information as possible (depending on how interesting the question is though).

I agree with most people on the left-wing here if they have a valid point to their statements, and pretty often they do. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about all right-wingers'.

So, instead of all the bashing I would love to hear both side's opinions in why they are left/right-wingers.

Statements some right-wingers made about iraqies being worth dying, simply because they're iraqies seem unacceptable to me. But I suppose you've said it because you want to tease the other side.

Now I would like you to give VALID and THOUGHTFUL reason's why you think your side is the best, and what's so bad about the other side.

Once again, make VALID and THOUGHTFUL points.

Let's have a clean discussion for once, I've been part of way too many unserious discussions, and I've been somewhat unserious myself.

[Ween311]

I don't think this thread will last very long.  Cainedna tried this before and hardly anybody responded.  I think it is because most people don't really know the reasons that they believe or stand for something.  They just like to argue.

With that said, I am generally more conservative.  I am not a religious freak, in fact I have not been to church since I was a child.  I don't agree with everything the republicans do, but I do support smaller government and less taxes.  

I am pretty cynical when it comes to politics.  I think that for a politician to get where they are, they have to lie, cheat, and steal.  Is there such thing as an honest politician?   I doubt it.  You have to read and listen and form your own opinions.  Don't follow blindly and don't believe everything that you read.

[67thRaptorBull]

Really, i dont have a pereference (but in not an independent). alot of people label me as a liberal, but thats just because most issues i argue in, i side with the liberal sie. There are some issues i will generally side with a conservative point, but not many of them are brought up in these forums.
the few things that piss me off and make me wanna be a die hard liberal at times are when people say the economy is fine right now, iraq was a A+ choice, and bush is aswome, but some points i might take the conservative side (ie, abortion, but thats about it for now).
i also feel gays shouldnt be treated so badly, as there human beings and deserve a free choice

[HeLiuM]

colonel, out of curiousity, what do you think of social programs (welfare, rehab, etc)?  Any thoughts on unions?
It'd be hard to agree with both unions and shrinking government, but those who value social programs usually also side with unions (mainly the lower and middle class).

What about on the issues where the social and economic really mesh (gay marriage for example)?
I say that because thats one of the main arguments against gay marriage (that it would raise their healthcare costs), but maybe thats just an attempt at hiding homophobia?

Any thoughts?

[Ween311]

Is it ok if I reply about Unions?  I used to belong to a Union at my last job.  You were intimidated to join.  During your training, a union representative would come in and tell you how hard it would be to keep your job if you were not represented by the union.  This was untrue.  The union had to represent all of the workers regardless of if they paid dues or not.  The thing that really got to me though was that I would come to work everyday and work.  People who hardly ever showed up or that did not do work while they were there were given the same raises and promotions simply because those things were based on seniority alone.  It was written into the union contract that raises and promotions were not to be given based on performance.  What kind of convoluted thinking is that?  I think that the reason unions were formed (to protect workers from unscrupulous corporations) was a good idea but one that is no longer needed.  If workers are mistreated these days, then there are many other outlets to contest the abuse.

On social programs such as welfare and rehab, I am kind of iffy.  I think that "Welfare to Work" programs would be better than just welfare. If you know that you are going to only get help for a limited period, then realistically that should motivate you to be self sufficient and make a living on your own.  I understand that people need help sometimes but I think that a lot of people just see welfare as a way to live and not have to work.  

Gay marriage?  Hmmmm....I have some gay friends and that is cool.  Do I think homosexuality is right or normal?  No.  Am I going to harass them about it?  No.  Do I really care what their sexual preference is?  No.  Should they be allowed to get married?  I don't think so.  But not because of any political reasons, just because I think its wrong.  Don't go flaming me saying that I'm a homophobe or a gay basher or anything like that.  People can do what they want to do, but because of thier preference should they be able to change the law?  I don't think so.

[nemt]

QUOTE (Colonel32 @ Jul 3 2004, 06:48 PM)

The best government is my opinion is a Dem president with a Repub controlled hill. I think we'll see one soon

Yeah, because when the white house and the congress are at odds, so much gets done.

The last time that happened, the head of the ACLU made it onto the supreme court.

[Colonel32]

QUOTE

colonel, out of curiousity, what do you think of social programs (welfare, rehab, etc)? Any thoughts on unions?

I think welfare is a necessary thing but it HAS to be reformed, right now its being abused at the tax payers expense. I HATE unions and think they are a plague on the workplace... I DO think workers rights come first and foremost though and unions have done a lot for safety in the workplace. As for rehab, I think addiction should be treated as a medical condition and not a criminal one, the "war on drugs" wastes more money and lives than welfare.

QUOTE

What about on the issues where the social and economic really mesh (gay marriage for example)?

Gay marriage in Canada hasn't effected anything at all but when social and economic policy contradicts I would always side with the social issue. I made all my money in the States and had it taxed higher in Canada because of where it was going to go.

QUOTE

Yeah, because when the white house and the congress are at odds, so much gets done.

Sometimes its better for less to get done. Being a conservative I assumed you would agree. With a dem pres and a repub hill... things still get passed, but there's gridlock. A repub hill keeps the bloated costs and useless stuff out of the Dem bills - but a Dem pres still pushes billsand programs for the common folk.  Worst thing in the world is an unchecked government like we have now whether it be Dem/Dem or Repub/Repub.

As for the Supreme court, thats always being abused by whoever is in power

[nemt]

Reagan said it best, democrats think every day is April 15, and it shows whether they're in the white house, the capitol, or both.

[nemt]

No one, regardless of sexual orientation, can support gay "marriage" if his or her reasoning and common sense skills are adept.

[Banj]

As much as it pains me, I've got to agree with Nemt here. (I'm going to hell)

If it makes you feel more comfortable to label me a homophobe then please, I want you to be comfortable. Because I am very comfortable with my feelings about homosexuality being a sexual perversion. I understand that people are born who they are and have no control over thier orientation but this is a nihilists argument. Your sensibilities would be revaged if I was draw comparisons with peadophilia and the 'automatic orientation' argument so I'll leave that to someone braver. The bottomline for me is that homosexuality serves no purpose.


......pluss I hate the 'uniform' that ALL homosexuals wear as soon as they are outed. I feel no compultion to organise a 'Straight Pride March' so why are homosexuals so intent on drawing attention to their perversion?

[cainedna]

How off-topic has this gotten?
You're totally right about homosexuality serving no "purpose." Of course, let's say your body cannot have kids. Any sex you might have has no "purpose" as far a society is concerned.
I'm not bashing anyone as a homophobe, but I don't see why it's a problem if two consenting adults prefer each other's company to being involved with women, what the fuck business is it of mine to pass judgment on that?
On top of that, you've gotta realize that marriage involves a lot of things you don't approve, for some cultures. It doesn't mean that it's invalid.
As far as the gay pride thing, you've gotta realize how a lot of these people feel. They were raised their whole life hearing how disgusting and offensive homosexuality was, and realized it wasn't a choice they could make. I think it's a natural backlash, although I wouldn't know for sure. You could either wallow in misery and hide your relationships, or make an effort to get over it.

[Ween311]

QUOTE

Welcome to reality. People will always be there to abuse the system, but personally I'd much rather see some getting equal pay for less work, then the masses getting wages they can't live on. On a side note, unions don't force promotion by seniority, it would be largely up to the business whether to implement that.

It's not welcome to reality.  I have been there.  So you are saying that if you work your hardest every day and your buddy comes in to work sometimes and half asses it everyday then he or she should get paid the same as you and get the same promotions and raises as you?  

And yes, promotions and raises go exactly by seniority.  If I posted for a new position and someone who had the same qualifications as me, but worse performance appraisals posted also, it would come down to who had been there longer.   I was represented by CWA Local 4106 and this was written into the contract with the business.  If the businesses do not agree with the contracts that the unions present them with then the unions have the option of striking or not working until they are agreed upon.  I don't think that unions should have all the power that they do.  They were started for a good reason and have served their purpose but are now larglely unneeded.

[Ween311]

QUOTE

Thats mighty easy for you to say, your rights are already protected by law. You say not to flame you saying you're a homophobe or a gay basher, but isn't that what you're doing? You feel they are wrong and abnormal because they don't have the same beliefs as you. I doubt the strength of your relationship with those gay friends, and I only hope they know how you feel about their rights. As far as I'm concerned, the law is there to protect us, not restrict us. Gay marriage is not harmful to you (for any legit reason anyway), and therefore straight males have no right to enforce their beliefs on them. How much freedom would we have if we couldn't do what we believe in simply because you feel it's wrong?

I don't think that you can judge the strength of the relationships with my friends because you don't know me or them.  But we are very close and have been since high school.  I am 30 now by the way, so we have been friends for about 15 years.  Yes, they know my views and they respect that because I respect their right to their sexual orientation.  I never said that gay marriage was harmful to anyone so please try not to put words in my mouth.  I also am not trying to enforce my beliefs.  I stated my beliefs.  If the majority of the country votes to make same sex marriage legal, it will be no skin off my back, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or that I am a homophobe or gay basher for my beliefs.  I don't beleive in polygamy should be legal either, but that was a right that was actually taken away from people.  It used to be legal for Mormons in Utah, but now it not.

Actually, I think that it would be best if the government and lawmakers were less involved in a lot of aspects of people's everyday lives.  Less government, Less laws, Less lawyers.

[Mozart.mp3]

QUOTE

Are you trying to prove that you do have the right to enforce your beliefs on others? Your morality is your own. Gay marriage is closer to interracial marriage than it is to polygamy, so why don't you work on getting that banned too?

I think what he is trying to say is that even tho YOUR morality may be your own, it takes the majority to stick up for that morality. Just because only YOU believe in something doesn't mean that it is wrong by any means, it just means that the odds are that until you make your own country and people respect that belief, you can forget about practicing it. It's my belief that interracial marraige at one time WAS basically banned and shunned upon. Whether people believe it was right or not then didn't make a whole heck of alot of difference. The majority doesn't have the right to enforce thier beliefs on others, but they do anyway, thats the way it goes.

[Ween311]

QUOTE

Your union managed to get a good deal then. May I ask what field you work in?

Yes, I worked in communications.  I was a field technician for a phone company.  I agree that unions were formed to protect employees, but now they are pretty much a political action group.  I think corporations today are a lot different now than when unions were formed.  Even in companies where employees are not represented, you don't have the same type issues that plagued industry when unions were formed.

QUOTE

By opposing gay marriage (and don't tell me openly calling it wrong isn't opposing it) and supporting bans on it, you ARE enforcing your beliefs on others.

I don't call discussing my beliefs in a thread that asks for OPINIONS on this topic "enforcing my beliefs."  I don't go out and march, I have never been to a rally, I don't go find homosexual people and tell them they are wrong.  I don't think that stating your opinions is enforcing anything on anybody.  I'm sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way, but I thought we were supposed to give our opinions.