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[Ces2k3]

yeah i do beleive in them maybe u should do a lil home work on them and you d realize that not all that the usa paint is all peachy and nice. i gave a link in this thread maybe u should check it out.

[melon]

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some hippy in a different country

If this was an essay I would provide quotes and links to back up my evidence. But it is not. Its a forum I am not going to spend ages searching for links and sources. I provided some but anything that isnt pro war is happy crap in your eyes.
I am trying to get you to think for yourself.
If I was to ask a question about flashing a chip would I ask for a mathematical model to prove whatever advice was given?

How about the fact Bush has asked for another $25 BILLION to help the war effort?
How about the fact 25 Iraqi and Afgan prisoners have already died while in American custody?

Do you want proof?

http://www.guardian....1210520,00.html

http://www.timesonli...1099578,00.html

http://www.timesonli...1098587,00.html

How much taxpayer money is going to be spent on Iraq?
Do you think when the multinationals rebuild Iraq you will benefit?
The people who own the companies will but you will get nothing. There are far better ways for that money to be spent. How about a more accesible Higher Education system, of which.

Andrusk I cant belive your at college!
You belive everything your government tells you.
What if Bush said Canadian terrorists called Aloadofbollocks-quida are dangerous and must be stopped before they bomb us. We have to invade and bomb them now. Congress give me $400 Billion please (how much already spent on Iraq)! You would take to the streets in a pro-war march. You were the only country in the world to have these pro marches leading up to the Iraq war. The sad thing is your probably proud of that.


I would like to make one thing clear in light of other posts ive written. I dont hate the American people (apart from a few ignorent ones). I just dont like your government, but im not alone.

[andrusk]

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If this was an essay I would provide quotes and links to back up my evidence. But it is not. Its a forum I am not going to spend ages searching for links and sources.

No links.  No credability

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I am trying to get you to think for yourself.

I do think for myself actually.  I do it quite well infact.  

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If I was to ask a question about flashing a chip would I ask for a mathematical model to prove whatever advice was given?

No.  But I would ask for a source to back up your experiences and reasons for why your modchip flashing method would work.  Just like how if I asked you what the C.I.A. did I wouldnt expect you to give a detailed model about how the inner-workings of the C.I.A. are structured, but more rather a brief description and some sources to back up how you thought they worked.  

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How about the fact Bush has asked for another $25 BILLION to help the war effort?

Tax money well spent IMO.  That money is going towards liberating a previously tortured people.  Every little bit helps.

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How about the fact 25 Iraqi and Afgan prisoners have already died while in American custody?

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25 Iraqi and Afghan prisoners had died in US custody in the last 17 months.

This is a war.  People die.  Heres a question.  How many of those prisoners died from wounds sustained during battle?  Probably all of them.  Until it comes out that those 25 prisoners were murdered, we'll simply have to assume it was because of injuries sustained in combat.  Or do you have evidence showing they were tortured to death?

and btw.  Two of those links are pay sites, and Im not about to subscribe to some hippy british online newspaper just to read your sources.

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How much taxpayer money is going to be spent on Iraq?

I dont know.  Do you?  Im guessing however much it takes until we can assure that a proper government is in place when we leave.

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Do you think when the multinationals rebuild Iraq you will benefit?

No I dont.  I hope the iraqi people benefit from the rebuild.  This war isnt about helping me.  Its about helping them.  How selfish do you think I am?

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The people who own the companies will but you will get nothing.

Again with the assumption of my wanting to benefit.  Sure the companies will benefit, they do get paid you know.  I dont care if I get anything.  I havent done anything to rebuild iraq.  I am not that selfish.

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There are far better ways for that money to be spent. How about a more accesible Higher Education system

How about not.  Our education system is already highly accessible enough.  Its bad enough that poor people get government money to go to school, and we already hand out free money and scholarships with affirmitave action.  How about this.  How about people actually WORK to EARN their right to go to school.  If you cant afford to go to school, get a better job and quit complaining.  Its bad enough my tax money is already going to welfare and other support programs.  Get some self respect already and work your way through life!

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Andrusk I cant belive your at college!

And I cant believe how people like you even exist.  I mean, whats it like being a coward and running from responsability all the time?  It must be hard turning your back on a country that needs help dealing with a leader that kills his own people.  For shame, I guess theres a reason we broke off from the british... You people are assholes.

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You belive everything your government tells you.

Thats not true.  If that were true I would believe that Clinton was a good man,  I would believe he did not have sexual relations with that woman, and I would also believe that Osama and Saddam arent a threat.
It is true however that I believe what Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Larry Elder, and George Bush have to say.

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What if Bush said Canadian terrorists called Aloadofbollocks-quida are dangerous and must be stopped before they bomb us.

If there was evidence that the Canadian leader had been torturing and slaughtering his own people I would say go for it.  Bomb the hell outta the sucka.  

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You would take to the streets in a pro-war march.

I dunno about you.  But I dont march, and appearently you dont watch much american T.V.  Because if you did the only marching you would see going on is from people like you who dont understand what we are doing there and want to stop it.  People like me dont march because we know that marching doesnt do shit.  However, bribing your local senator... thats a different story... j/k

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The sad thing is your probably proud of that.

Not really.  Show me a link with evidence of a pro-war march.  Then maybe Ill be proud of it.  But that still doesnt mean I would march with them.  

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I would like to make one thing clear in light of other posts ive written. I dont hate the American people (apart from a few ignorent ones). I just dont like your government, but im not alone.

I actually dont like our government either.  But its not for the same reasons as you.  I hate the government because enough people like you have wiggled in and hiked taxes, taken away money from people who deserve it the most (THE PEOPLE WHO EARNED IT!!) and have made it nearly impossible to run a family owned business without the government screwing up the ass.  All because some poor family in harlem doesnt want to make an honest living and get a job.

[melon]

Your ignorence flows through everything you write.

[andrusk]

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I supplied 3 These are two of the leading papers in England. The Guardian is widely recognised for its excellence.

Ill give you that.  I didnt realize that you dont have to pay for that site in England.  If I didnt have to pay I would have recognized your links more.  I assumed that since they were pay sites you put them there on purpose.  I am sorry for that.

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where is your proof?

Go to rush limbaughs site, larry elders, bill o'reilly.  These are all credable sources and the leading talk show hosts of america
a subtle jab at your "leading news paper statement.  

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Here is a link from the BBC which even states 2 of the deaths have been treated as murder.

Ok.  Ill give you 2 murders.  But neither of us have proof of how the other 23 died.  So lets drop that one.  

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Maybe they were made to listen to some of Bush's speaches? (sorry that was lowering myself).

I actually liked that.  Some subtle sarcasm, very nice.

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I apolagise for assuming you will want to benefit, but your multinationals will destroy Iraq (read my post on why America is hated).

I read you post on why america is hated and I still dont buy it.  But I guess I never will.  Oh well.

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Your education is the worst in the developed world. What percentage of the working class go to university in your country?

You know.  I dont know.  But since when were we talking about the working class going to college?  Thats what the "working" class is for.  These are the kind of people that run the mcdonalds and burger kinds of the world.  If anything, we need more of them.  I got two more mcdonalds going up in my town!
*that was mostly sarcasm.  but in all sarcasm is a bit a truth*

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When you are tought history what do you learn about? What religions are you taught? What foriegn languages are you taught?

Hmmmm, history eh?  Well, Ive learned a lot of stuff.  U.S. History is a biggie (of course), World History, theres always that too, and Arizona History (cause i live in arizona).  Thats about all the history we've learned about.  Pretty much covers all the bases.  
Religions however.  As you may know, religion is pretty much illegal in a school now adays.  Something that I think is appaling.  So, we werent really taught anything about religions.  But if it is any comfort to you, I am a Mormon.  (Youll probably hate me even more now )
And languages.  Well, theres german.  I learned that in middle school.  Then I learned French in High School.  I guess I wasted my time though.  I shouldve taken a dialect class so I could talk like a Brit!

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These are not points these are genuine questions.

questions answered.  Moving on.

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So i was correct then?

Technically no. Partially yes.  The only person out of that group that is in the "government" is George Bush.  Everyone else is a radio or tv show host.  

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Bush declared the war over ages ago. You belive what he says dont you?

I know your sick of hearing this, but there is no evidence of that statement.  I know what you are referring to however.  He did not declare the war was over.  He simply stated that "Major combat operations had ended"  That by no means says the war is over.  No matter what any reporter tells you.  

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Since it was you who installed Saddam why should YOU install a government? Why not the UN (by the way can they have thier conscription fees you owe over a million), or the Iraqi people?

He who smelt it dealt it.  According to you, we created the problem, so, we should only do the responsible thing and fix the problem.  Why are you asking me about the conscription fees?  I think thats something you should take to the Secretary of the Treasurey.   I know you were joking..... right?  

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I am no coward I fully supported the use of our troops in Afghanastan. By the way how is going setting up a government there? do you even know?

No I dont know.  Sorry for calling you a coward.  I meant liberals in general.

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Surely a responsible person is one who questions what is happening and is socially aware? It is bieng irresponsible remaining ignorent.

I agree.  I do question what is happening, and as you know, have made my desicions about it.  Also, no.  It is not responsible to remain ignorant.  But what does that have to do with this subject?  Just because you view me as ignorant doesnt by any means mean that I am.  Everybody is ignorant in something as I am sure you are.  In fact.  I do research, and I watch the news, and read the news online, and read the papers.  I know exactly what is going on just as well as you do.  Just because I dont have your opinion on something doesnt make me ignorant.  Its make you ignorant to the fact that other people have different opinions on matters.  

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Marching does help and yes I have marched. The reason I marched is because I DO understand what we are trying to do in Iraq. There was pro-war marches in America find the info yourself it was all over our news.

Ok.  What exactly did your marching accomplish?  Hmmm.  I didnt march because 1.  There were no marches in Arizona at the time. 2.  As I said, I as well understand what is happening and find marching silly.  

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in your case, pot, kettle, black....

I like that. I originally was gonna apologize for calling you an asshole, but I guess not.  I also like how you edited your post to make it look like you had a snide remark.  Nice touch.  

As to your original statement...

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We know where not liked around the world, not as disliked as you but probably the next country behind. Difference is we know why.

Hmmm, at least your admitting the British are a bunch of snotty biatches.  Thats funny, cause I do know why people hate us.  Why do people hate you?

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Your ignorence flows through everything you write.

in your case, pot, kettle, black.....




In any case.  Its appearent that the only thing that is going to come out of this is pages and pages of us disagreeing.  I say, in the hope of much time saved.  That we call it a truce and quit our bickering.  It is obvious by now that neither of us will ever change our minds on these subjects, so any banter from here on out is just masturbation without the payoff.  I will step up and offer a summoning of no hard feelings, and offer that we both will respectly agree to disagree.  I humbly lay down my keyboard and walk away from the tat a' tat that is this thread.

[melon]

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I read you post on why america is hated and I still dont buy it. But I guess I never will. Oh well.

If you want to see it from the perspective of a country American corporations have dominated you could maybe understand. In the post I linked a review of a film which tackles such issues. Its called Life and Debt. I highly recomend you see it.
It shows the effect Corporations have on developing countries and local peoples lives. They live in a totally different world to you or I.

The reason the world is against America setting up a new government in Iraq is that they know whatever government Bush puts into power will be more sypathetic to American policy (trade, all your corporations - see above), than the interests of the local people.

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No I dont know. Sorry for calling you a coward. I meant liberals in general.

The truth is America has abandoned Afghanistan to concentrate on Iraq. Women are worse off now (gang raped if your outdoors).

There is also this view that liberals are cowards or hippys. This is a misconception. Its not one way, a lot of liberals  probably think every republican is a fascist war mongerer. The political arena is a spectum, people have views that are grey not just black and white. its just poeple are pigoen holed into a catorery they maybe dont belong in. Me personaly I am partial to a bit of marxism.

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in your case, pot, kettle, black.....

Touché


If you wanted to we could continue in the more civilised manner you have started and be a bit more open minded.
I would like to understand your point of view.

[andrusk]

QUOTE (mamajo @ May 6 2004, 10:06 PM)

Does this guy look liberated? No.

Ho does look like he would make a good scarecrow though

[67thRaptorBull]

dumbass

[melon]

Please try to refrain from pointless remarks like these. Thet really do show you to be ignorent after all.

[Colonel32]

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It is true however that I believe what Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Larry Elder, and George Bush have to say

I thought so - it explains the amount of rhetoric you use  

The scarecrow comment is telling as well.  I think it crosses a line of taste and hope you won't do it again.

[andrusk]

 I guess im just not able to live up to your expectations of an anti-american.  Oh yeah, you can bet ill refrain from pointless remarks like these in the future.  Boohoo, im ignorant, oh help me I must be ignorant.  Please melon, save me!  Save me!!  I need your liberal guidance to save me!  I just dont know what ill ever do on my own.  Oh for the love of all that is good and holy!!!!   I just dont know what Im gonna do!!!   OOOhhhhhhhhh

I feel so dirty.  I feel so bad.  It must be illegal to see some humor in a situation.  Oh yeah, I forgot....  There is no humor allowed on this board, I guess I need to go to the comedy forum.    You think I actually care what a couple of anit-american assholes think about me on the internet?  Ha!  Go screw yourselves.

[67thRaptorBull]

wow, and were the childs?

why dont you freak out some more

wait, better yet, ill come drag your ass out of bed, put you in that pose, and then let you say you look like a god damned scar crow

jesus chirst, your one of those people that think "im american, im better then everyone else"

got to hell

and while your at it, get some commonsense or grow up

[melon]

If were going back to flaming....

You are completely wrong I am not anti-american. I thought I had made that clear.

The problem with you is you dont give a shit about anybody outside of your own country. Them Iraqis, funny or what?

Them vietcong there funny too.

Forget the fact America killed 4 MILLION Vietnamese people because a fraction of that number of US soldiers died. You value the life of your own far greater than anyone else. That is the biggest difference between backwards Americans like yourself and the rest of the world. You would happily watch every Palistinian die at the hands of Israel if it stopped a suicide bomber killing 1 American tourist.

andrusk it makes me sick knowing there are people like you tainting the worlds image of American people.

Why join the comedy forum your opinions here give us a good laugh.
All us hippy, peace loving liberals!

[67thRaptorBull]

melon, thank you for saying what i said without cuss words, your a good man
i have nothing furthur to add, all the damage has been done

[Colonel32]

If anyone has any comments on the subject of the soldeirs in Iraq and alleged abuses they should create a new thread.

This one has gotten off topic.