Print

[Ces2k3]

[heinrich]

QUOTE (CNN)

He said the president had known about the images for a while but declined to offer further details.

So when were these soldiers charged, before or after the national news story?

and nemt, you can talk all day about how horrible the saddam regime was, but "2 wrongs do not make a right".  You cant possibly try to justify this by simply saying 'he did it too!'

[BenJeremy]

It's a shame that a few soldiers (both US and British, it seems form the latest reports) act criminally, but that is FAR DIFFERENT from the systematic and institutionalized torture that occurs in countries all around the world (many of them hardcore 'Islamic States') - and did occur under Saddam.

What's the difference? Besides the obvious, that these acts by US and British soldiers are rare, unauthorized, and criminal - they also likely happened to people who did very bad things. Does that justify it? No.... but let me ask you, which is worse? Being tortured or humiliated because you murdered some of your captor's buddies with a roadside bomb, or being tortured to death, along with your family, because you spit on the picture of your country's leader?

I don't know the exact circumstances of the Iraqis who were mistreated, but I do know the later situation I described happens all the time. The later situation does not happen in the United States. The former does - witness poilice beatings in California, or New York... but all of these are isolated cases; similar situations have occured in every Western nation, at some point. Is it an indictment of all police? No. Anybody who says it is obviously lacks the ability to reason.

At any rate, I am throroughly disgusted by these images. The perpetrators of these crimes should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ. That will be very nasty for those indeed... hard labor at Ft. Leavenworth. Maybe worse... the military lets the Iraqis extradite them and get charged there as well. I understand the General in charge of those soldiers has already resigned. Poor discipline, for sure.

When I was in the Corps, we were taught the proper way to treat prisoners. Torture was not acceptable then, and surely isn't today. There is no excuse for the way they were treated - and those in charge are just as guilty, for their failure to enforce rigid discipline and educate these military police (!! WTF? They should have FAR more training on the subject than I ever got!!) in such a spectacular fashion. I wouldn't be surprised if their OIC and HIS CO are both court martialed for their mishandling of the situation, even if they were not directly involved.

[CHRONOSTORM]

[CHRONOSTORM]

QUOTE

also the stupid part was they did it, not the taking pictures

yes stupid they did it stupid as hell they took pics. bad shit happens and ignorant fools dont help. thus gheyness

[Ces2k3]

All this that's going on now is going  exactly as planed. If we dont wake up from the media and cover ups and clear lies, we not gonna have a America to defend.


" when we have to give up our freedom for security, we end up loosing both"

[Colonel32]

What I want to know is who the hell was in charge when this was happening and for how long did it go on. I feel awful for the family members of that people in the photographs... This is insane..

Its too good to be true for the terrorists so I'm waited a little to hear more details about the situation. Horrified at the repercussions because this is going to be a good recruitment tool for terrorists.

[HSDEMONZ]

QUOTE (nemt @ Apr 30 2004, 05:21 PM)

Are you dense?  It wasn't US sanctioned action, it was the sole action of soldiers who are now considered criminals. In any event, I'd rather be the subject of a "fake electrocution" than disappear in the middle of the night, only to be found dismembered the next day, wouldn't you?

I never said the abuse by those soldiers US sanctioned. Read what I said.

I however.. do believe that while the US is over there.. they need to keep their noses clean.. and make sure things like this don't happened.. or at least be smart enough to not document it with cameras.  This just feeds the anti-american hysteria over there.  Those few US / Brit soldiers are not the only ones that need to be court marshalled.. but clearly their ranking officers directly over them as well.

Photos like these.. just make things worse for the troops serving in the middle east.

As BENJ and Colenl suggest.. there is a clear problem with their local chain of command.. the very fact that these 6 or more individuals did this.. and leads to speculation that there was some colusion with those in authority.. even it it was just the ranking officer over them at the time.

I said it before.. I'll say it again.. the US needs to be doing things better, and cleaner than the rest while in a foriegn country.. that they "liberated".  Each and every soldier over there.. while in that land.. while serving with the armed forces.. is a representative of the United States of America.  

They are there under sanctioned duty.. (The invasion was a US santioned government action.. as is the current process of conversion to the new governing system) and while doing so.. most be seen to be doing the right thing.. at all times.

Anything less.. is a disgrace to the armed service they are working under.

Another question come to mind after thinking more about this.... where was the red cross and UN inspectors who check and interrogate the prisoners???  Someone better informed than me can shed some light on the proper process in a prisoner taking situation.

[HSDEMONZ]

QUOTE (nemt @ Apr 30 2004, 07:13 PM)

Saddam's loyalists, as well as Islamic extremists in Iraq have all been involved with civilian atrocities, whether or not this particular person has been involved is inconsequential.

ah.. the old guilty by association angle...

[HSDEMONZ]

QUOTE (HeLiuM @ May 1 2004, 10:04 AM)

I don't condone the actions, but at most the men should get a dishonorable discharge.  And even then, it should be made sure that this wasnt just a prank among US soldiers.

Tell that to the victims of future American Casualties.. who were killed by radicals inspired by those photos.  Dishonourable discharge is nothing compared to the body count that will continue to mount.

That part of the world.. has been inspired time an again by quick quotes, propoganda, and simple images like these posted.  In NA we will forget them.. but other there.. they will be used to feul the anti-american fires.

[HSDEMONZ]

I don't want to EDIt my last post.. so let me correct it here...

--------------------------------------

Tell that to the FAMILIES of future American Casualties.. who were killed by radicals inspired by those photos. Dishonourable discharge is nothing compared to the body count that will continue to mount.

That part of the world.. has been inspired time an again by quick quotes, propoganda, and simple images like these posted. In NA we will forget them.. but other there.. they will be used to feul the anti-american fires.

--------------------------------------

I stand by my comments.. dishonourable discharge is nothing.. especially to the clowns who did this.  Dishonourable discharge is only a meaningful punishment for those who had honour to begin with.  If they had any honour.. they wouldn't have done the act.

As for comments about mental training and discipline... someone ok'd those people for service.. deeming them mentally competant for the task.  Maybe there is a bigger.. underlying problem with the current INTAKE system to the US armed forces.

I personally think the Us armed forces.. are some of the best trained personel in the world. At the same time though.. especially in the current climate.. a loser look at the intake system.. and those that get through it.. should be re-examined.

[HSDEMONZ]

QUOTE (HeLiuM @ May 1 2004, 10:04 AM)

Honestly, do you think this will be some breakthrough for saddam loyalist support?

Breakthrough? No.

.. but I do believe that radicals who hadn't made the decision or had the guts.. will be inspired to pick up a weapon for their cause.  It might only be one man who gets inspired.. but that is still one man who didn't have the courage or the guts or the final straw needed to push forward

If one nutcase gets inspired by this footage to pick up an AK47 and shoot an American.. or a Canadian PeaceKeeper.. or a UN Rep.. or a RED Cross worker.. or a Civil worker sent from one of the participating nations to help rebuild Iraq.. than those soldiers should be made to explain to the victims families why they felt the need to go out of their way to humilatiate (and torture?!?) those prisoners.

Maybe then... they would learn the consequences of their actions.

[HSDEMONZ]

I'd jump on Bushs head given a chance.. but there isn't anything I can say.. that hasn't been said ad nauseum already in these forums.

Do I think that Bush mislead the people of the US and Britian.. hmm.. not intentionally.  

Did he proceed on less than fully accurate info. I believe so.  I'm only party ot what is pumped into the media.. and am not privy to every document that crossed his desk.  So I won't judge him too harshly.

The invasion is over.  Nothing really can be done about that.  But while the US is there.. acting as liberators.. bringing democracy to IRAQ.. it's up to them to lead by example while in their country.

[Master-Chief]

[67thRaptorBull]

QUOTE (Colonel32 @ May 1 2004, 08:44 PM)

and at this point in time there is really no reason not to support the war.

why do you say that?

If i were to be sleptical on supporting  this war at all, what would be the best turning point for me to support the war, when we first invaded and it looked like everyone was happy because we brought food and water and gasoline, or now, a year after bush said major combat was done, and in april alone some 130 troops have been killed?

frankly now is the time when i say fuck it, stop caring about the war and go on with life, although thats how ive felt since the whole thing started. i didnt give a shit about it, but now, its a little hard to here that 130 troops died in 30 days, and they were not even killed by a army, but by citizens with guns..........
if i was a military leader, id be shitting myself now, because since theres no army with tanks and helicopters and mass platoons to use all of our smart bombs, planes, and other "cool" shit on, we have to use basic tactics because there killing us from houses were innocent people live, and like i said, all the military planners are probably thinking
"fuck, we cant use are B-1 bombers or B-2 stealths on the buildings, were fucked"

im sorry, but i just had to respond to that once statement.

American pride or not, this war can suck my left nut.