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[IndieSnob]

While I STRONGLY disagree, and somewhat take offense at calling what the hijackers did was 'war' and not terrorismn, I agree with some of your other points. I know we've funded people over there (get to that in a minute) who have then turned around on us, and we've had to go in and deal with them, but that still doesn't mean what happened on 9/11 could even be considered an act of war against us, nor should it be condoned in any way. I think they have reasons to hate us, but that doesn't mean you come and kill us, especially innocent civillians who for the most part probably don't have much to do with the goings on of the US government.

I almost started a thread last night on why so many countries hate us, and should we really be the worlds police authority, but I was too tired and wasn't going to make much sense, but I'll give it some what of a shot here.

I really think we need to start picking and choosing our battles, and unfortunately I think that has to start with only protecting areas that have had stability throughout the years, and can be stable.
On one hand you have Sadaam, who has commited mass genocide for years against the Kurds, pretty sick and disgusting and just downright unhumane. The US government and various US corporations through out the 79 to late 80's period helped Iraq with weapons and money to help 'deal' with the Shah Of Iran, and then he comes back to try to bite others and us on the ass with all of this. In 1990 Bush Sr. declares war on Iraq after they actively invade another country (Kuwait). We go over there, bomb the hell out of em, put groundtroops in to move the iraq's out of kuwait, then come home. What changed? Pretty much nothing, except we stopped Iraq from invading Kuwait for the moment, but not from the killing of many Kurds. Fast forward 13 years later, after the dealings of 9/11 and Bush Jr. and his cabinet decide that after 9/11 that Iraq may have been helping Al-Quaeda in it's terrorismn against the US and also have a ton of WMD's. We go in full frontal assault and pummel the hell out of them, and finally later capture Sadaam. Later we find that our government either lied, or went in on bad intelligence, but I won't get into whether they did, that's a whole nother issue.  While I agree that Sadaam is a sick disgusting vile human beign do I really think he posed a thread to the US or had ties to Al-Quaeda? Not very likely. And as much as I like to see him gone from there, I think we just did more hurt then good. In a region such at the middle east there really isn't any such thing as democracy or stability in many of those countries, save a few, and it will probably never stop. You'll always have the very right wing militant religous factions vs. the less reglious but yet even more corrupt dictators. I really think all in all it was not worth the soldiers lives we lost (may they RIP), because while maybe the new government of Iraq can not be a genocidal dictatorship, there's alot or those very militant religous folks sitting on that government allready with even more anti-human right bills against their own people. I don't have the link on me right now, but where alot of those people stand while nothing as bad as Sadaam's ruling would be, is still no where near a democracy that the Iraq's really deserve. Also, do you really think they average Iraqi citizen feels safer? Maybe a little, but they also know there will never be true peace over there, and hence why I feel that we don't need to muddle in the affairs of that country anymore.

As far as Israel/Palestine goes it's another situation where again we need to stay out of it. For years we have heavily funded the Israeli government with money and military weapons and equipment, while they are just as much terrorists as the palestineans are. If any thinks that in our livetimes or even hundreds of years after that that there will be any sort of peace in that area, they're gravely mistaken. That land will be fought over for the rest of time, and there will never be peace between a muslim and a judaism based country sitting next to each other. It really sucks but when people don't want to be peaceful and work out these things, you can't baby them, you have to let them get into their own trouble.

I really am sick of seeing the US government playing the police of the world, when alot of the time it seems to make it worse for us, or the countries we get involved in. Throughout the years we've had all of these failings:

We help Batista (Cuba) get into power, american corporations fund him, it becomes a las vegas of the atlantic with all of the casino's and mafia actions happening, we make money off it, but in the background Batista is treating his people like shit. People there have had enough, and you get Fidel Castro in there, situtation is even worse.

Sadaam vs Shah of Iran, well we allready know that one.

Funding of Israel.

Funding of Iran/Contra.

Funding of helping out Afghanistan against the Russians, and then seeing two things: Bin Laden turns his back against us and terrorizes us for years, and the Taliban who was one of the most extreme religous governments ever in the middle east go and treat their citizens completely inhumane, while supporting Al-Quaeda against us. (Yes, I am glad we bombed Afghanistan after 9/11 because they were part of the problem, but I wish we would have never been in there during their war with Russia).

I could go on with all the supposed democracies we've tried to setup, countries we've fund, etc. just to watch them turn on us. Again I'll say just because we've helped by really trying to better a situation, and it turns on us, does not give any country or terrorist a right to attack the US. War and Terrorismn are two completely different things.

[lordvader129]

another reason is the US uses somewhere on the order of 90% of the worlds natural resources (and carries about 2% of the worlds population) then tells other countries to "reduce, reuse, and recycle")

and to all the folks to say US policy is wrong or whatever, we've been one of if not THE most powerful nation int he world for about 100 years, we must be doing soemthing right

[scorpionking77]

QUOTE (lordvader129 @ Apr 5 2004, 08:01 PM)

and to all the folks to say US policy is wrong or whatever, we've been one of if not THE most powerful nation int he world for about 100 years, we must be doing soemthing right

yeah by doing sneaky shit on the side. Have to step on some toes to get on top and problem is some of the toes our government steps on always comes back in some way and cause us some damage. But dem the breaks.  Just hope things dont get any uglier cause the only place to go  is down and we sure hell dont want to go down

[Master-Chief]

Dude, you have to understand the concept that NOT ALL Muslims are at war. It is indeed, the extremists!  

[TSOPrano]

QUOTE

QUOTE and to all the folks to say US policy is wrong or whatever, we've been one of if not THE most powerful nation int he world for about 100 years, we must be doing soemthing right Slavery?

Good call Colonel32, good call  

QUOTE

But who has really "turned on us"... it's been more that dictators would not do what they were told, or were disobedient in their policy. The America's were not attacked if 9/11 wasn't an act of war

Good call number 2 by Colonel32...

Saddam Hussien = CIA asset (watch this video and see the truth about the Hussien/USA relationship)

Osama bin Laden = CIA asset

USA slept with Iran

...and there are many, many more dictatorship/extremist funding's that have went to hell, for the United States. Why? Because they do not follow what the American's want. It all breaks down to how much influence and institutionalization the American's are able to have in the countries in which the tax payer's dollars go to. Look at Iraq/Iran conflict. "Lets fund both so they can have a war, we can capitalize off of it by being ally's with Iraq (and getting their oil). Okay, Iraq is now in shambles, we give the O.K. to them to attack Kuwait to try and reclaim some of their wealth, but can even capitalize off of this situation by screwing the now poor Iraq and supporting the very wealthy Kuwait."

The United States foriegn policy is bullshit. It is not for the good of the people, or for the defense of America. It is for corporate America to capitalize off of exploiting these lesser countries for their immense wealth.

[Colonel32]

QUOTE

The United States foriegn policy is bullshit. It is not for the good of the people, or for the defense of America. It is for corporate America to capitalize off of exploiting these lesser countries for their immense wealth.

BUT, that is an opinion.... I certainly am not going to fly a plane into a building or burn flags because Americans slaughtered Latin Americans or the Indians. The reality is that the majority of the Middle East doesn't know or believe or care about any of these dealings with Iran or Iraq. The Iraq/Iran war ended a long time ago and Turkey and Saudia Arabia are under control... If US actions in the middle east ten years ago had outraged the region this much... the war would have started a long time ago. The US was looking out for its own interests and following their policy, nothing illegal and every other country is doing the same thing so why would the US be the target this time. Certainly the British have been more involved in the middle east but the crowds are chanting death to America

There has been terrorism groups in Africa, the Middle East, Europe, Japan and Latin America, all different races and religions...

The only answer that has been proposed to the questin is that the US caused 9/11 with past foreign policy... I don't buy that, a factor maybe but not a reason

[TSOPrano]

I agree with some of your points, but tell me then, why is it the Middle East is chanting death to America?

I'm just giving my own opinions, I am not saying that is the way it is, but want to hear some others as to why this phenomena of nearly universal American hate is so rampant.

[gronne]

As you have stated here very well TSOPrano that USA were not attacked without a reason(very good video you linked). People, and I mean people from everywhere, don't know about the way USA have treated the mid-easterns before 9/11(and still don't) and therefore they claim it's only the mid-easterns doing wrong. And yet I doubt it would do much for ignorant americans to realize the truth, I would still love to see how many republicans(the one's supporting the war the most) it would turn (some percentage should be possible). But in my opinion the one who starts it, always is the one causing the problems in the first place, so I blame a whole lot more on US than the mid-easterns.

I think the TV-networks are screwing up people's minds severely like fox. I've watched it a few times and I'm sometimes not sure their talking about the same events as my tv-network(Swedish). It's ALWAYS pro USA/Bush, and CNN aren't much better.

[scorpionking77]

wow. that link was very informative. Like i always thought. Our government do sneaky shit.

[player1]

QUOTE (Master-Chief @ Apr 5 2004, 09:51 PM)

Dude, you have to understand the concept that NOT ALL Muslims are at war. It is indeed, the extremists!

You dont see the all Ayatollas and clerics going on TV and speaking out against them though do you ?

Same you never saw the pope kicking out IRA terrorists of the Catholic church.

Killing in the name of a religion is wrong and goes against religions totally except Islam that actually preaches and encourages Holy war.

Holy war is to me a total contradiction .

[mike96sc2]

Master-Chief hit the nail on the head when he said it's the extremists and not the Muslim faith. I work with many Muslims and they're no different than me or anyone else I know. If in fact I give the ones I work with immense credit for their devotion to their religion, which in fact preaches peace and understanding just like all religions do.

I think it's easy to say it's terrorism, I say it's the modern day crusades. Christians had their crusades hundreds of years ago with extreme bloodshed and everything else. I'm not a theology scolar or history buff so I don't know any details but I do know that those holy wars were religiously motivated. Now do I think every christian was involved in the crusades? Were these condoned by the church? Pretty much.

There are Islamic scolars and religious figures who do speak out against the "Jihad" but we just don't see them on TV everywhere screaming it. That's the media's fault. Watch CNN once in a while and you'll see numerous American Islamic leaders saying this is wrong and not all Muslims are like this. These people are correct, the people who are wrong are the ones too closed-minded to learn anything other than what they can generalize from TV.

By your logic most Islam preaches violence and hatred towards other religions because you see that on tv and in the newspapers and everywhere else, so by that same logic then if i read about how catholic priests are molesting altar boys left and right should i go around saying the catholic faith is full of child molesters?

I disagree 100% with what is going on with the people who believe this Jihad is necessary, but for everyone to come to a peace we need to solve centuries of problems and struggles for both sides, and everyone needs to come down to the table and work things out. Being uneducated doesn't solve anyone's problem nor does ignorance.

[player1]

QUOTE (mike96sc2 @ Apr 10 2004, 02:40 AM)

There are Islamic scolars and religious figures who do speak out against the "Jihad" but we just don't see them on TV everywhere screaming it. That's the media's fault. Watch CNN once in a while and you'll see numerous American Islamic leaders saying this is wrong and not all Muslims are like this. These people are correct, the people who are wrong are the ones too closed-minded to learn anything other than what they can generalize from TV.

Why then only in America ?

Why isnt AL Jazeera  broadcasting condemnations from high ranking clerics or Ayatollas from Islamics states ?

Instead of just always being thier to film hostages being held or screening Bin Laden tapes.

You blame the press I dont .

I blame the senior clerics and Ayatollas because believe me in these Islamic states if these people wanted top speak out then they would and could . They are quick enough to use the media to shout out Jihad against the western world.

Oh yes you said the islamic religion preaches peace that being the case then what the heck is a Jihad ?

[Colonel32]

QUOTE (TSOPrano @ Apr 7 2004, 08:05 AM)

I agree with some of your points, but tell me then, why is it the Middle East is chanting death to America? I'm just giving my own opinions, I am not saying that is the way it is, but want to hear some others as to why this phenomena of nearly universal American hate is so rampant.

Purely speculation and opinion but I think terrorism comes from

DESPERATION - HUMILIATION

US conflicts with the Middle east are about contrasting

EDUCATION - RELIGION - QUALITY OF LIFE - On BOTH sides.. I think Bad Media is part of the Bad Education and while there is nothing inherently wrong with either religion, they are BOTH used much to literally to form rhetoric.


and 9/11 was ALL about Saudia Arabia cash and an amalgamation of everything else above over the last decade all the way back to the "crusades". There's NO excuses why there has not been more explanation of SA participation in 9/11

QUOTE

Being uneducated doesn't solve anyone's problem nor does ignorance.

That was a great quote mike96sc2    

I'd like to hear some non left thought on this as well

[player1]

An interesting read :

http://www.tinyvital...ves/000287.html

http://www.cbn.com/C...ews/040324e.asp

[TSOPrano]

QUOTE

Killing in the name of a religion is wrong and goes against religions totally except Islam that actually preaches and encourages Holy war.

Ehm... What religion went on the genocidal spree which we call, The Great Crusades?

Oh but wait, they were white, and from Europe so it doesn't matter.

I'm glad to see some people interested in this topic. Would be nice to hear some right-wing views on the situation but my extreme left-wing side tells me to say: "They don't want to say anything because they know they are WRONG. The realize the current regime in which the White House is occupied by is WRONG.   "

QUOTE

As this book was going to print, hijacked airplanes hit the World Trade Center and Pentagon, killing thousands and potentially triggering major repercussions in U.S. society and in the world. The U.S. media devoted huge coverage to the attacks and their aftermath. But, overwhelmingly, the media omitted a critical, accurate discussion of the context in which they occurred. When President Bush and U.S. officials announced that "America was targeted for attack because we're the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world," the mainstream media in the U.S. mostly echoed the refrains. A lead analysis in the New York Times stated that the perpetrators had acted out of "hatred for the values cherished in the West as freedom, tolerance, prosperity, religious pluralism and universal suffrage." Glaringly missing from the U.S. media's coverage was a full and realistic account of U.S. foreign policy and its effects around the world. It was hard to find anything but a passing mention of the immense slaughter of Iraqi civilians during the Gulf War [and now Gulf War II, look at Fallujah], the devastation of Iraq's population by U.S.-instigated sanctions throughout the past decade, the U.S.'s crucial role in supporting Israel's 35-year occupation of Palestinian territories, its support for brutal dictatorships throughout the Middle East that repress the local populations, and on and on. Similarly absent was any suggestion that U.S. foreign policy should in fundamental ways be changed. This book was compiled before the events of September 11, 2001. But answers to many of the most important questions presented by those attacks will be found here. Why does the media provide such a limited and uncritical perspective, and such inaccurate analysis? What is the basis of U.S. foreign policy and why does it engender such widespread hatred of the U.S.? What can ordinary citizens do to change these situations? As Chomsky noted right after the attacks, "The people in the advanced countries now face a choice: we can express justified horror, or we can seek to understand what may have led to the crimes. If we refuse to do the latter, we will be contributing to the likelihood that much worse lies ahead." From our frightening, current vantage point, the discussions collected in this book seem more urgent than ever. We hope that the book will provide a starting point for understanding, and will contribute to the critical debates--and changes--that must now occur. -- Understanding Power - Noam Chomsky, A Note on the Events of September 11, 2001.

I highly recommend this book to anyone, even the few open-minded right-wingers.

You can find the book here, at Amazon.