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[Xbox_Prophet]

QUOTE (nemt @ Apr 20 2004, 10:22 AM)

Israel has defeated the arabs in war numeruous times, just like the Europeans defeated the Indians.  When you lose war, you lose land, or should Hitler still control Europe?  Not to mention, New York was bought from the Indians, not gained by conquest. Also, the UN created Israel as one of its first actions, so what you're saying works against your argument, not for it.

Thats pretty Inacuarate, New York was conquered by the English from the dutch settlers In New Amsterdam.  Also the british took the land they captured that was promised to the Arabs, and gave it to the Jews. Anyways The U.S are now fully backing Isreal, which means that now the Arabs can Have the War that they have always dreamed about: Fighting the "White Devils"(I guess thats what the arabs think of the U.S) of the U.S.A and the "Dirty Jew" (Which is also what the arabs think of the Jews)

[talic]

i mean uhhh....tis a shame

[gronne]

BJ might be intelligent, but that won't make his points more valid. From my P.O.V. he looks at stuff more black and white than his "diplomatic" posts might make it look like. Hitler was also intelligent, but not very moral (not a fair comparison though).

We've all got different ways to send out the message, yet the one being the most rhetorical will almost always have a greater advantage no matter what points he/she makes. We've got very different fundamental ideas though, which I think is more important. I believe in all peoples equal rights and to fight for the environment, most other issues come second to me. But then comes the question: What's the best way to achieve that? All I know is that violence never has and never will be the answer.

It is, no matter how much I dislike them, very important to have people like BJ to present their ideas so we can look at questions in other perspectives though. Otherwise I suppose we would fail even more. The importance is their ideas won't be taken in action, then we get stupid wars.

[BenJeremy]

Islam's Image Problem a Mirror of Reality?

Here's a Muslim who recognizes what I am trying to say.

Care to call him a racist? Compare him to Hitler? Perhaps your local Bishop or Pope will declare a death sentence upon him for speaking heresy (oops, wrong religion)?


The problem is real. Ignoring it does not make it go away. Political correctness is a sham invented by ignorant bleeding hearts and promoted by anarchists as a smoke screen.

I can't idly stand by while a group uses religion to stir up hatred and violence, then winks, nudges and claims "we are a religion of peace". Unless we've slipped into an Orwell novel, I don't think our government is FORCING us to accept this idiotic "newspeak". For intelligent people to accept the line that it will all go away if we simply let them do what they want - in short, appeasment of terrorists - is unbelievable.

Nothing is black and white. Not all Muslims feel this way, but I have a hard time ignoring all of the polls that come out of Arab media - polls showing that a great majority support terrorists. I have a hard time ignoring the crowds of Palestinians, for example, CHEERING IN THE STREET after 9/11. I have one word for people like that, who celebrate the misfortune and intentional, targeted deaths of thousands of innocents - SCUM.

For those Muslims who hung their heads in respect to the loss of life, and cursed the hijackers and al qaida for this heinous act, I have the UTMOST RESPECT.

[nemt]

It's a great paradox, if you defend the jews you're an evil zionist racist, if you defend muslims, you're a liberal equal rights visionary.

[gronne]

I agree with the writer to some extent. Organizations as Al-Qaeda and similar are probably not fighting for anything but their own interpretation of Islam, on the other hand I've NEVER claimed suicide bombers are right either. I dissociate myself from all acts of violence, doesn't matter if it's Israel or Palestine. AFAIK almost no muslim woman feel oppressed about wearing those clothes, they WANT to wear them.
There was an Imam in Stockholm that said to the members in his Mosque that if anybody supports the Muslim terrorists they are to leave the Mosque immediately.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Mark Twain (I'm not exactly sure about the quote). This goes for polls as well. I haven't seen those polls you mentioned, but they are probably right, and wrong. Though I would like to explain in a little different way why I think they support terrorists:

Let's say there never has been an attack from a Muslim terrorist organisation before, and now they attacked Israel. What would happen? The media would present it as "-MUSLIM TERRORISTS ATTACKED ISRAEL- The world's in shock". The Muslim world would probably say that it's a terrible act, and how could they be muslims? The rest of the world would take it that all muslims are terrorists and heavily accuse them for it, because most of us would think other muslims supported it since it said "MUSLIM terrorists". So all of a sudden the Muslims are terrorists and would say that the terrorists are fighting for them since they're also muslims, because the world has determined Muslim equals terrorists. WE(media) put an unconscious pressure on muslims, that might makes some of them support terrorists. What if media spoke about christian terrorists, the muslims would accuse all christians (wouldn't matter much though since their voice is too little).

This was a VERY simplified answer to what I mean, and I guess it'll get missunderstood. There are very many other reasons they hate americans as well. But it might at least be worth thinking about.

I would never say Islam is less "loving" than any other religion, such as christianity. One of the christian commandments is that one shall not kill, yet Bush kills americans (death sentence) and mid-easterns without hesitating, isn't he a terrorist then?

If you die not being christian you won't come to heaven, but you will go to hell?!?!?! So, how are people living completely isolated from the rest of the world even going to get a chance to come to your heaven? Of course muslims hate jews and christians.

My point is that no religions are "nice" to eachother, and I would be thrilled if they were wiped out of this world.

If you see a muslim or a black person on the street and you get scared of what they might "do" to you, you should not question why you think they want to "do" you something, instead you should ask what you've done to them. Mutual respect.

BJ, do you have UTMOST RESPECT for people that hang themselves in respect to the loss of life??? I would not respect my brother if he killed himself in respect to the loss of life, I would be pissed that I lost an insane brother.

[nemt]

[Wong Hung Lo]

QUOTE (nemt @ Apr 23 2004, 08:11 AM)

That's as funny as the picture I saw in the Fark forums of a wheelchair in flames with the caption Owned.  

[BenJeremy]

QUOTE (gronne @ Apr 23 2004, 08:05 AM)

BJ, do you have UTMOST RESPECT for people that hang themselves in respect to the loss of life??? I would not respect my brother if he killed himself in respect to the loss of life, I would be pissed that I lost an insane brother.

:::sigh:::

This one simple part of your response demonstrates that you are not worth debating. Your narrow, utterly biased view blinded you into totally misunderstanding my post and twisting it's meaning into something completely abhorent.

If you did this on purpose, shame on you.


If you did this out of ignorance, I cannot excuse your desire to interpret it it such a horrible manner, so still, shame on you.


In any case, you are not a reasonable person when it comes to this topic. I won't argue with an unreasonable person - it's pointless.

[gronne]

Figure you won't respond to this then.

What if I skipped the subjective part about my brother, would you answer the question?

Debates ought to be as objective as possible, but objectivity is cynical. And I'm not a cynical person so I add moral scenarios to make you look at it from a different perspective.

I guess others did interpret it the same way I did. I just thought it was an awful thing to write, so I made it more clear.

[BenJeremy]

Another interesting read

It's about human lives. The Palestinians have the power to stop it.

If the Palestinians stopped ALL attacks today, and Israel failed to follow through with the withdrawals (and a reasonable agreement) and so much as harmed one PA leader, Israel would lose all remaining support from the west.

This is not a straw man, it's a very simple fact. Israel's support from the west stems from it's democratic government and the fact that it NEVER started the wars that were waged against it. It's based on the belief that for all it's failings, Israel most represents the guys with the "White hat" - and we all know there's no such thing as black and white, but the shade is far lighter on the side that doesn't intentionally target innocents or mark somebody for death merely because they are a particular religion.

People who cannot see the difference probably have greater problems they should deal with.

[talic]

[Banj]