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[fletch_dev]

What I'm saying is, if you go it alone then you stand alone, thus you become just another European country. This is 2003, France is no longer in possesion of dozens of countries, nor is Britain.

imo Britain has done a wonderful job of relaxing its global ambitions and thus you see many countries still willing to be part of the commonwealth. France seems to have lost ground in a series of dismissals. Time for France to realise they are no longer an association of states but rather a single European country.

wow I really have been drawn off topic sorry about that.

Give me a few minutes to collect my thoughts and I'll be back onto criticising the yanks about their short sighted efforts to stop terrorism.

[ruffles_x]

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As to the oil thing...listen ruffles, as a French person yourself, you should understand in the light of France's long relationship with Iraq, founded entirely on oil, that such criticisms coming from the French are complete nonsense. Do not presume to lecture us on the ethics of the oil trade; the primary beneficiaries of the UN oil for food program were clearly the Russians, French, Germans, Egyptians, and the UN itself.

Im not French, im Méxican, and as you know México never had any real bussines with irak. Except for being also an oil exporter we are very distant. so you can see im not biased in any way.

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Our invasion has done more for the Iraqi people than all the palaces French money bought for Saddam.

Oil First, then water... What do you think iraki people need more right now?

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If the best you can do is pretend my views are coming from the mainstream media, I suggest you find a more entertaining way to insult me.

Im not trying to insult anyone, but thats what i see when you talk about this war.

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Bla bla bla freedom of speech. There are many reasons why certain channels are not shown in the US, and none of them have to do with government intervention.

Its was one of the most viewed news programs among latin people, and you know latins are now the biggest minority over afroamerican people.

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The issue is not that France did not support the US in the war. It is that France actively aided and abetted the Iraqi military effort, in a manner that ultimately could have resulted in more dead American soldiers, while making a pretense of being the "loyal opposition". Neither Mexico nor Chile did any of those things, so they have nothing to "fear". In any case, it is not military action we are discussing.

of course not military, but you know how depndent on US economy are latin america economies, some kind of economical measures could really hurt downhere.

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How exactly are they not just another European country? Tiny military...check. Socialist Welfare state...check. Hostile immigrant minority population that holds public debate of important issues hostage...check. What is so special about France that it requires different treatment from the US?

Then who is not just another country, in your point of views it seems that only america.

[Lizard_King]

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Im not French, im Méxican, and as you know México never had any real bussines with irak. Except for being also an oil exporter we are very distant. so you can see im not biased in any way.

I apologize for my mistaken assumption then. I don't know where I got that idea.

Although I find it amusing that you consider your views "not biased in any way", as if that were possible.

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Oil First, then water... What do you think iraki people need more right now?

The two things are not mutually exclusive, nor are they being handled in that way.  The simple fact is that due to the success of the US plan, restarting oil is a far more simple proposition than distributing water.  Both are being worked on at the same time by wholly unrelated aspects of the occupation team; there is only so much that can be done in a personnel and vehicle-intensive effort like handling clean water.

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Im not trying to insult anyone, but thats what i see when you talk about this war.

I could just as easily say your opinions are just a rehashing of the standard Latin American Neocolonialist bullshit that is often taught as a catechism in those countries.  I know of what I speak; I was born and raised in Costa Rica, and have traveled extensively.

But I don't, because it is very possible to arrive to either your viewpoint or mine without being brainwashed.  That's called civil debate; respecting your opponent's opinion.

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Its was one of the most viewed news programs among latin people, and you know latins are now the biggest minority over afroamerican people.

Big deal.  If Latinos in the US were this interested in the show, it would have been here years ago courtesy of any of a number of entrepreneurs.  That the show does not exist in the US is only indicative that there must not be a demand for it, or no one has thought of bringing it over.  It says absolutely nothing about freedom of speech in this country.  

What does being a large minority mean?  Suddenly the US government should have to take measures to accomodate the viewpoints *you* think they should be exposed to?  If they wanted it, they'd have it.

Believe me, there is no shortage of anti US criticism in this country.  Hell, a good segment of the Democratic party has a cottage industry in that line of work. The media is in many ways dominated by that brand of leftism that is actively hostile to America; if I'd only read Time Magazine or the New York Times or Newsweek during the Iraq war I would have sworn Americans were being slaughtered in droves.

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of course not military, but you know how depndent on US economy are latin america economies, some kind of economical measures could really hurt downhere.

Like I said, no Latin American country that I can think of, short of possibly (but unlikely) Hugo Chavez's Venezuela could have offered material military aid to Iraq in recent years.  They have nothing to worry about.

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Then who is not just another country, in your point of views it seems that only america.

All countries are just that: countries.  They are free to make their own diplomatic choices, so long as they are willing to deal with the consequences (ie France and Germany had better never need any sort of NATO support for any of their causes).  But when they actively participate in a material way on the behalf of someone the US is waging war against, AND claim to be an ally of the US, that is going to be a problem.

[Colonel32]

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the primary beneficiaries of the UN oil for food program were clearly the Russians, French, Germans, Egyptians, and the UN itself. Our invasion has done more for the Iraqi people than all the palaces French money bought for Saddam.

The primary benificaries were the people being fed in my opinion

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The two things are not mutually exclusive, nor are they being handled in that way. The simple fact is that due to the success of the US plan, restarting oil is a far more simple proposition than distributing water

well, same could not be said for the electricity or medical aid... Its more to do with the fact that the faster the oil is pumping at full, the faster the occupation can end. i don't disagree with that at all but don't understand how the success of the war would have changed this in your view.

  Yasser was sidelined.... not a single miltant in the new cabinet and it looks like the US is going to recognize the new Govt and release the roadmap  

[Lizard_King]

QUOTE (Colonel32 @ Apr 24 2003, 09:31 PM)

QUOTE the primary beneficiaries of the UN oil for food program were clearly the Russians, French, Germans, Egyptians, and the UN itself. Our invasion has done more for the Iraqi people than all the palaces French money bought for Saddam. The primary benificaries were the people being fed in my opinion

So, you mean Saddam and the Baathist party?  Because everyone else in Iraq was below subsistence level.

You cannot possibly be ignorant of how much of that money was directly funneled into Saddam's repression of his people, the further lining of the pockets of the elite (have you completely missed the discovery of caches of millions of dollars in the nicer neighborhoods of Baghdad?)...

The people of Iraq were being wilfully deprived for the same reason Fidel Castro does it to his people; it gives him more money to spend on himself and his friends, and it is easy to shift the blame to outside forces and maintain control with the bogeyman of foreigners.

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well, same could not be said for the electricity or medical aid... Its more to do with the fact that the faster the oil is pumping at full, the faster the occupation can end. i don't disagree with that at all but don't understand how the success of the war would have changed this in your view.

You are barely making sense.  It must be difficult to string together that much Leninist theory into one paragraph.  

Situations are not zero sum, as much as the Marxists among us would like us to believe.  Oil was largely undamaged during the invasion; the civilian infrastructure took a beating.  It is a LOT harder to restart an electrical infrastructure, for example, and it takes some time.  Have some patience.  I would love to see the UN try to do it more effectively, as they have done *so* well keeping much smaller Kosovo in the dark ages for the last 2 years.

If you think we are out of there the moment the oil is flowing you are out of your mind.  You know as well as I do that as long as George Bush is in office we are committed to setting up a new regime.  The oil will be flowing long before that.

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Yasser was sidelined.... not a single miltant in the new cabinet and it looks like the US is going to recognize the new Govt and release the roadmap

If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.  We are nowhere near hearing the last of Arafat, and this charade of a power struggle is absurd.  

The US will deal with the "new" gang, but I seriously doubt that we will see much progress until it is clear what direction Iraq is going to take.

[Lizard_King]

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The attack on a civilian bus with an "energy weapon" in the town of al-Hillah, killing at least 10 passengers.

An "energy weapon"?   Probably sharks with frickin laser beams...Could they at least not make their political slander so humourous?  I mean, come on.

The funny threat?

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If an indictment is filed against the general and other U.S. officials, they could be convicted and sentenced by a Belgian court.      "Belgium could issue international arrest warrants, but I don't think we will get to that point," Mr. Fermon said.      If arrest warrants were issued, U.S. officials could be arrested on entering Belgium.

The not-so-funny threat?

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"there will be diplomatic consequences for Belgium" if the complaint is taken up by a court there and Belgian authorities issue indictments against Gen. Franks and other U.S. officials.

Egyptian Sailor Dies in Brazil From [Weaponized] Anthrax

The really interesting part?  He was on his way to Canada with the suitcase of anthrax.  Now, there's a good likelihood it was then to go to the US, as it would make sense, but there is just as good a chance it was meant for distribution in Canada.  

Sharia Law, now and then. WARNING HIGHLY GRAPHIC IMAGES OF AMPUTATION

But you see, even there the Iraqi regime had their fundamentalist neighbors beat, as you can see by the use of of an iron maiden in Hussein Juniors funhouse: The Olympic Committee building in Iraq.  

[Lizard_King]

[Lizard_King]

A very interesting interview with military historian Victor Davis Hanson, circa March 2003

-Take into account the Iraq war had not occurred yet when this was written.  But his perspectives on American Naval power and its implications, and lots of other diverse themes, are fascinating.

[jz28]

QUOTE (Lizard_King @ Apr 28 2003, 06:38 PM)

A very interesting interview with military historian Victor Davis Hanson, circa March 2003 -Take into account the Iraq war had not occurred yet when this was written.  But his perspectives on American Naval power and its implications, and lots of other diverse themes, are fascinating.

You are really on the ball lizard king, this thread made for a good read. I am glad someone who does his research is able to voice what a lot of us feel.

[Colonel32]

, but i have her convinced it will better us as people to not go to a resort..... plus its a hell of a lot cheaper than hawaii  i'm going to go challenge mugabe to a duel and become the new ruthless dictator of rhodesia/zimbabwe.... lizard you can be my military advisor and lead the miltia against all the bastard commies

[Beastie_]

personally, i think the whole things STUPID.

[Colonel32]

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Man, I wish I could be optimistic about this whole roadmap thing

ya i'm not so optimistic for the whole 2005 thing.... thats silly but i do believe that the states are in the perfect position to "push" both sides into agreement... sometime over the next ten years i think ther could be somewhat of an independent state given, but there will still be hamas and fateh(sp?) and will probably be war and horror for many years therafter. I'm just happy that the discussion seems to be at the forefront of middle east policy and the media is starting to catch on


We would be meeting a health worker friend of mind in africa, so i think it will be somewhat safe.... and i miss Costa Rica much i lived at jaco beach for some time in my youth and unfortunately i remember little  I would love to see the markets in san jose again, i loved being able to argue the price of everthing.... that roxs

[bagel5009]

its same ol same ol, i saw george bush in a air force uniform with everyone, its funny cuz the l.a. times always make pictures that make him look like a monky cuz they are democratic

[Lizard_King]

QUOTE (Tk0n @ May 2 2003, 11:44 PM)

maybe they dont show him in uniform cause he never served

Can you land on an aircraft carrier?  Because George Bush just did, because he was a pilot in the National Guard.  Although to be honest I have no idea what he was thinking pulling that stunt, given that he should have absolutely no carrier experience.

[gainpresence]

I heard that he flew, but didn't land.