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[Lizard_King]

QUOTE (socrates @ Feb 12 2003, 09:11 PM)

Best doors album .....well i think soft parade is good but i do like LA women

fuck yeah.  Although the live double album gets a lot of playtime around here, that's for sure.  "Celebration of the Lizard", anyone?

[Lizard_King]

[Wilco]

I've been pretty pleased with this thread so far.  It hasn't devolved into senseless namecalling.  Let's hope it stays that way.

But Lizard King, your thoughts on Nazism = Marxism are overly simplistic (as I'm sure you're probably aware).

To break it down in as short an argument as you used, I'll just explain it like this.  In Marxism, the highest figure is The People.  Everyone works for everyone and everybody benefits (supposedly).  In Nazism or any other kind of facism, the people serve a central dictator in a subserviant role, in this case Hitler.  That's why the armed forces swore their allegiance directly to him and not Germany as a whole.

Yes there are similiarities between Marxism and Nazism.  But their stances on religion, economics, etc. justify the placement of Marxism on the left and Fascism on the right.

And as far as the Web site you use to call out the Mufti.  I hope everyone noticed that that site has no description of the people who run it.  Who are they and what qualifies them to determine what is fact?

There have been bad Muslims as there have been bad Jews.  Let's get our information from credible and unbiased sources.

And for fun, go to www.idleworm.com and play the Gulf War 2 game.

[Lizard_King]

QUOTE

To break it down in as short an argument as you used, I'll just explain it like this. In Marxism, the highest figure is The People. Everyone works for everyone and everybody benefits (supposedly). In Nazism or any other kind of facism, the people serve a central dictator in a subserviant role, in this case Hitler. That's why the armed forces swore their allegiance directly to him and not Germany as a whole. Yes there are similiarities between Marxism and Nazism. But their stances on religion, economics, etc. justify the placement of Marxism on the left and Fascism on the right.

I wouldn't have posted it if I were "aware" of it being wrong. The distinctions you draw have to do with your idealized conception of Communism.  Lenin and Stalin had at least as deified a role in Russia, as did Ho Chi Minh in North Vietnam, Castro in Cuba, and Kim in North Korea.  The only difference is that fascism is up-front about it, whereas Communism injects a lot of rhetoric about serving the interests of "the people" (which, of course, are determined best by the fearless leader and his lackeys).

Please, explain how they have different views on religion (universally hostile, with short term deals made to consolidate into a position of strength).  Explain to me how it is that Socialists (like young Mussolini, many members of the Nazi party) so easily and credibly shifted into the fascist party.

Illustrate how a collectivized, centrally planned economy is so different just because in the Communist countries the people that would shoot you for dissenting wore red stars and in the Fascist countries wore brown shirts....

Hitler, and even moreso the more educated Goebbels, acknowledged a profound debt to Marx in the intellectual (if you can call them that) roots of Fascism.  

If you're really interested in the history behind the Grand Mufti ( I learned about him in a class on the Middle East, although he was only referred to briefly), I suggest you punch in his name in Google and tell me what you find, perhaps from a source that you consider "educated".  The facts are there: He did meet with Hitler, he did advocate the platform of the extermination of the Jews from the area, and he is the logical ancestor of the modern PLO.  Any counter-factuals are welcomed.

[edit]
Here'sa joint Arab-Jewish scholarly statement on the story of this "false Mufti".

Do you really find it that unlikely that there was collaboration between a rabidly anti-Jewish Arab and the Nazis? Why?

[gainpresence]

It's funny how you say "Kill all the Jews" yet call me (and Lizard) a Nazi.

[Wilco]

Lizard King,

You've really got to stop flying off the handle and read what people write before you respond.

I never said that your opinion was wrong, I said that it was overly simplistic.  Which it is.  But it also makes some gross errors.

First off, you mix up communism and Marxism (while at the same time ironically accusing me of doing so).  Not once in my post do I mention communism (which is one flawed attempt to implement a set of Marxist beliefs).  Your argument, however, is dependent upon this conflation.  The similarities are only between fascism and communism, where I agree that because of the flawed implementation you do end up with an oligarchy that functions much like a fascist leader.

But moving on to just one of your other points, religion.  Marxism and fascism take completely divergent views on this subject, despite what you would have people believe.  Everyone is familiar with Marx's belief that religion is the opiate of the masses, but let's let Hitler demonstrate the fascist point of view on the subject.

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; conseuquently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith," Hitler, April 26, 1933 in a speech made at the Vatican.

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." Hitler, Mein Kampf, p.152

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," Adolph Hitler to Gen Engel 1941.

"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain." Hitler, Mein Kampf, p.171

"For the political leader the religious doctrines and instittuions of his people must always remain inviolable," Hitler, Mein Kampf.

Get the point?  Fascists don't take "universally hostile" approach to religion as you would have us believe.

And I never once said that the Mufti wasn't a bad man.  And I don't doubt there was an alliance between him and Nazi Germany.  What I was calling into question was your source for the material.  I was telling people to examine who's telling them the information before they take them as fact.

The same way that I'd tell them to look to Encyclopedia Britannica rather than a KKK handbook for a biography on George Wallace

I really wish you would actually read what was written before you shoot your mouth off.  It would eliminate me having to respond to these ridiculous charges.

[Wilco]

QUOTE (gainpresence @ Feb 12 2003, 11:59 PM)

It's funny how you say "Kill all the Jews" yet call me (and Lizard) a Nazi.

Who are you accusing of saying this?  Because the way the post flows, it looks like you're accusing me.  I never said any such thing.

[pilotz69]

YYYYAAAAWWWWNNNNN!!!!

[gainpresence]

QUOTE (Wilco @ Feb 12 2003, 05:07 PM)

QUOTE (gainpresence @ Feb 12 2003, 11:59 PM) It's funny how you say "Kill all the Jews" yet call me (and Lizard) a Nazi. Who are you accusing of saying this?  Because the way the post flows, it looks like you're accusing me.  I never said any such thing.

I was talking mainly about Al_Ghazi, his posts imply that he wants the Jews done away with. If you don't feel the same way, then I am not talking to you.

[Al_Ghazi]

I have not been so entertained all year!

[Al_Ghazi]

HAHA lizzy - I wish I were as sure of the world as you are - One thing I know for sure is that anyone who perpetuates the suffering of people either though manipulation or directly with a gun, is  immoral and a rank coward.  Someone such as yourself.

[Al_Ghazi]

QUOTE

No, you're right...anti-zionist thinking is not synonymous with being an asshole. However, an endless stream of ad-hominem attacks and self righteous, paranoid delusional rants does tend to push you into that category.

Hmm… Have I been an asshole to you?  By golly yes I have! – Do I feel the need to justify it in any way… nope.. I don’t.

QUOTE

The reason I brought ought Jihad Joe was that I figured since you were making fun of the more embarrassing aspects of my culture, I figured I would point at the more embarrassing aspects of yours. But no doubt in your book there is some sort of moral equivalence between a fringe televangelist blathering on and a piece of shit like Bin Laden.

What exactly is your culture?  No matter, because you  failed in your task.  The Jihad Joe only served to FURTHER point out  the embarrassing aspects of “your” culture.

QUOTE

Just so you know, buddy, the idea of a "right-wing" Nazi is inherently oxymoronic. The only reason Naziism was associated with the right was due to 1) an accident of political structuring, where in the German parliament the Nazis were seated on the right side of the room, next to the conservatives, simply because that's where there spaces and no one had a classification for them 2) Leftist propaganda that attempts to differentiate Communism from Fascism, when in reality they are competing implementations of Marxist and collectivist thought.

Sure – when taken literally.  However in common lexicon a “Nazi” refers not specifically to members of a early 20th century political party, but more generally to a person who acts as a demagogue, or one who exhibits those characteristics of the Nazi’s that we all revile.  Just consider “Right-Wing” as the adjective, try reeeaaal hard to see the figurative, and you might be able to grasp my drift.

QUOTE

Keep in mind that you are the one that is advocating a platform very similar to that of the Nazis, founded on irrational hatred of a minority group as a scapegoat. It is not by accident that Arabs sought to collaborate with the Nazis in the event of German victory to eliminate the Jews from Palestine; no doubt you would have been a big fan of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, one of the more multifaceted instigators of Middle East discontent, who actually met with Hitler to talk shop about smashing Jews.

The idea that the Nazi hatred of the Jews was “irrational” is something else that could be debated.  The Irish sided with the Nazi’s as well…  This attempt to cloud the issue with trivia is just a waste of your time.

QUOTE

Of course, the people that agree with you are "educated", whereas those that agree with me are only deserving of scorn and slander. It must be a cozy little world you live in...free of rational debate, only requiring "Ha ha ha, isn't President Bush a dumbass" for your point to be assumed true. Such sneering demagoguery may go over well when the New York Times deluges the sheeple with it; you, my friend, are a rank amateur at the mob-deluding game.

That’s OK – I’ll leave the mob-deluding game to you and your pro-Zionist cohorts.  You have been doing such a superb job on the American people for 50-odd years why would I try and compete with you now?  Maybe I missed this years Spielberg movie about Second World War atrocities – Hollywood must have more German nazi uniforms than Hitler ever did.  The fact that this unrelenting reminder of the Second World War goes on and on and on and on… while Rwanda, Bosnia and Palestine go ignored, is testimony to your refined and ever more sophisticated mob-deluding.

QUOTE

Citing the noted socialist George Orwell will only get you so far. Many famous literary figures with much to contribute to the debate of the human condition also had a lot of jackass opinions; Orwell's anti-Jewish prejudices are well documented. What are you going to quote next? Some more Karl Marx? How about VI Lenin? Let's at least get in a variety of leftists...

Orwell will only get me so far?  How far did he get me?  How many points for Orwell?  Maybe I could widen the field and bring in Neo-Freudians like Erich Fromme – would that get me points for being obtuse?  I could never manage to be quite as confusing as you, but if we can keep this thread going I might get pretty good.  By the way – George Orwell was my hero.  One of the most insightful thinkers of the 2oth century.  I quoted him because I just re-read 1984 yesterday, there were 100 quotes that apply to current world affairs, but Orwell saw through the crap.  The quote – with some minor editing, could asily apply to western attitudes to Ossama, - who was high-up on the CIA list of supported terrorists (sorry – when he was fighting the Russians he was a “freedom Fighter”) – doublethink you see – how Orwell saw all this… he saw it in western society in the 1940’s and it is still here today.   This Stalin-like manipulation of the media.  

[Al_Ghazi]

QUOTE

Out of curiousity, where do tyrants like myself rank next to sniveling imbeciles who persist in blaming everyone but their own asshole leaders and themselves for their problems?

Why is the fact that I am a Caucasian United States citizen (as I said before - born and raised) so hard for you to fathom?   Do you believe that the wool is so firmly pulled over the eyes of each and every American that we cannot see the horrific injustice inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinians?  And that we should not be outraged that our own tax money is being used to perpetuate this injsutice?

Also - By “snivelling imbeciles” do you mean the oppressed homeless and abused Palestinian people?  If so then your own racism and hatred is showing my friend.
outrage?

[Al_Ghazi]

QUOTE

It's funny how you say "Kill all the Jews" yet call me (and Lizard) a Nazi.

Sorry - you are not quoting me there

[Wong Hung Lo]

QUOTE (HSDEMONZ @ Feb 16 2003, 07:18 AM)

I'm sorry... hate me if you want.. think I'm sick.. but WONG's Animated Shuttle pic is fucking hilarious...

It's not really my pic. It's comes right off of that aljazeera website. I guess it's like a arab CNN. The link is in the message. Did you check out the poor innocent donkeys link? I hope it wasn't MatrixMan