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Author Topic: Kai For Osx, Linux, Bsd, Xdk Etc.  (Read 131 times)

flat235

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« on: January 31, 2004, 07:40:00 AM »
Hello everyone,

The Kai engine is getting close to completion - so it's time for us to start to look at other platforms. As the engine is seperated from the UI, it's possible for us to begin work on UI's for other platforms, and just use win32 as the engine platform for the time being - eventually we will port the Kai engine to these other platforms, then win32 wont be required at all ... ive put together a quick FAQ on how this will work:

Q: What do I need to do this?
A: A win32 box to run the engine on .. thats it :)

Q: Do I need to be into packet capturing etc?
A: No - the engine handles all that, you just talk to the engine using a simple UDP comms protocol.

Q: I want to use GPL / <insert other license here> - is this a problem?
A: Not at all - your code is your own. Use whatever license you see fit.

Q: I dont like the win32 Kai UI - does it have to look like that?
A: No - again, its entirely up to you..

Q: Im not going to spend time on this, just for it not to be used ..
A: Obviously :) .. We dont have a "certification process" as such - for your work to be an "official" UI, all it has to do it work..

Q: What if someone else makes a UI for my platform too?
A: No problem - multiple UI's is even better.

Q: So where do I find out about all this stuff? Is there an SDK? Is there a developer site?
A: Yes - it's nearly ready.

Q: How hard is this to do?
A: All you need, is to be able to make a good UI .. the network side of it is trivial - we'll give snippets of C++ for creating the sockets etc.. no problems there

Q: OK - how do I register my interest?
A: PM me on here - or add me to your MSN - [email protected]

Cheers

TD

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Gamester17

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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2004, 04:38:00 AM »
I got a suggestion telated to above, port XLink Kai to a Xbox library and get TeamXecuter to put it inside thier Xecuter BIOS? I think it be great if the XLink Kai engine could be incoperated into a BIOS for the Xecuter 3. (I think that would be possible?, similar to incoperating the FTP-Server)
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Froggie

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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2004, 04:03:00 AM »
I think that's a really good idea. The code inside the bios doesn't have to be very large. I should be just enough to maintain the connection with the host. Apps like boxlink and/or dashboard apps could be written for room selection and controlling the bios. Although I think it will be for 1 connection since maintaining more connections will require too much CPU power.

Also, I'm willing to write a GUI for Linux, it's just that due to my exams this spring I won't give myself some free time to write it, for I'm afraid I might get hooked to the development and forget about school :rolleyes:
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dfunked

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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2004, 02:18:00 AM »
The in-built FTP was only a proof of concept. Personally I don't think it's worth the time, nor would they bother supporting it. If it means bumping up the bios size to 512kb, there could be a lot of unhappy people.  wink.gif
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flat235

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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2004, 04:44:00 AM »
It's moot anyway - you will have noticed that the FTP in Evox was only available when nothing else was running - so unless you had 2 xboxes, and wanted to use one as the engine, it wouldnt be much use :)

TD
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Gamester17

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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2004, 08:00:00 AM »
I still think you should contact TeamXecuter & have a chat with them. Separate thread for the engine?
(oh and btw, I undestood that all Xecuter3 BIOS'es will be 512KB+, none will we only 256KB)
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T u r b o

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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2004, 02:05:00 PM »
QUOTE (flat235 @ Jan 31 2004, 03:40 PM)
Hello everyone,

The Kai engine is getting close to completion - so it's time for us to start to look at other platforms. As the engine is seperated from the UI, it's possible for us to begin work on UI's for other platforms, and just use win32 as the engine platform for the time being - eventually we will port the Kai engine to these other platforms, then win32 wont be required at all ... ive put together a quick FAQ on how this will work:

Q: What do I need to do this?
A: A win32 box to run the engine on .. thats it :)

Q: Do I need to be into packet capturing etc?
A: No - the engine handles all that, you just talk to the engine using a simple UDP comms protocol.

Q: I want to use GPL / <insert other license here> - is this a problem?
A: Not at all - your code is your own. Use whatever license you see fit.

Q: I dont like the win32 Kai UI - does it have to look like that?
A: No - again, its entirely up to you..

Q: Im not going to spend time on this, just for it not to be used ..
A: Obviously :) .. We dont have a "certification process" as such - for your work to be an "official" UI, all it has to do it work..

Q: What if someone else makes a UI for my platform too?
A: No problem - multiple UI's is even better.

Q: So where do I find out about all this stuff? Is there an SDK? Is there a developer site?
A: Yes - it's nearly ready.

Q: How hard is this to do?
A: All you need, is to be able to make a good UI .. the network side of it is trivial - we'll give snippets of C++ for creating the sockets etc.. no problems there

Q: OK - how do I register my interest?
A: PM me on here - or add me to your MSN - [email protected]

Cheers

TD

 
QUOTE

Q: What do I need to do this?
A: A win32 box to run the engine on .. thats it :)


Forgive my ignorance, but as long as a win32 machine is required as part of the equation, WTF is the point?  If a win32 box is available, than the UI can be run from there.

Why would anybody waste time developing a UI for another platform for which the engine is unavailable?

The PC UI == worthless waste of time IMO.  What's interesting is a linux based engine that can run right on a tivo, or Linksys WRT54G or similar, without a PC involved at all.  The UI that IS interesting is the bo-xlink-type application that can run right on the xbox itself.

Just trying to understand where you guys are coming from with this???
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flat235

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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2004, 02:15:00 PM »
Hmmm.. no offense here, but *reading* is often good in these situations:

QUOTE
The Kai engine is getting close to completion - so it's time for us to start to look at other platforms. As the engine is seperated from the UI, it's possible for us to begin work on UI's for other platforms, and just use win32 as the engine platform for the time being - eventually we will port the Kai engine to these other platforms, then win32 wont be required at all ...


QUOTE
The PC UI == worthless waste of time IMO.


Lol.. er.. "thanks" :|

/me crosses one off the list... ahh well...

TD
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Diggen

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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2004, 02:48:00 PM »
For me its Interresting and when the Engine is portes you can chosse a GUI.
Look at me my Windows PC or better my Brothers PC is at the other end of the House but my Xbox and my PC (with Linux) are at one Room, and whit a GUI I may not hop between my Xbox and the Win PC.

But another Question when is the SDK ready? Or does I not recognize it?

Sorry for my Bad English, I'm just a German ;)
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T u r b o

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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2004, 02:49:00 PM »
Let me clarify what I'm talking about here:

QUOTE
The PC UI == worthless waste of time IMO

Lol.. er.. "thanks" :|

/me crosses one off the list... ahh well...


What I meant is that developing a computer-based UI for a platform for which no engine is available is (again, IMO) a waste of time.  I'd be interested to know what value you think exists in having a remote UI to control a win32 'engine' ??  This just seems completely backwards to me;  get the engine working FIRST, then put a pretty UI on it LATER/B].


QUOTE
Hmmm.. no offense here, but *reading* is often good in these situations:


I did read the entire message.  What I get out of reading this message is:

QUOTE

We're not releasing any source code or details about how the engine actually works, or how it interacts with the xlink kai servers, so you're stuck with win32.  Eventually we might release an engine for some other platform.


Is this accurate?
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flat235

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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2004, 03:13:00 PM »
QUOTE
What I meant is that developing a computer-based UI for a platform for which no engine is available is (again, IMO) a waste of time. I'd be interested to know what value you think exists in having a remote UI to control a win32 'engine' ??


As I have stated, on myriad occasions, engine ports for the OS's listed in the subject line are scheduled. I would not announce that fact, were it not true. Secondly, I think you are failing to understand the concept of the engine / ui seperation. The UI's which these people will be writing for other platforms will be able to talk to an engine running on *ANY* platform. The UI <--> Engine communication is simple a UDP stream.

The engine will be completed on win32 first - as it is the platform which I am most comfortable developing on. Yes, shame on me for having a win32 pc - I'm just a bad person.. It's just that when you develop things on linux, and nobody cares - because hardly anyone uses linux here - it sorta puts a downer on the whole thing - dont you think?

QUOTE
We're not releasing any source code or details about how the engine actually works, or how it interacts with the xlink kai servers, so you're stuck with win32.  Eventually we might release an engine for some other platform.


Lol... thats pretty much 100% right. Apart from the "might release". As I said above, engines for the OS's listed in the subject are scheduled. As for source code, and orbital server interaction information - no - I'm not making that public. There is no need. As I have said before, countless forks of the engine code, running on countless platforms, with the orbital / kai server software changing every week or so would be, in the words of Egon Spengler, "extraordinarily bad".

"Whatever you do, don't cross the streams!"

TD
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T u r b o

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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2004, 09:34:00 AM »
QUOTE (flat235 @ Feb 12 2004, 11:13 PM)

The engine will be completed on win32 first - as it is the platform which I am most comfortable developing on. Yes, shame on me for having a win32 pc - I'm just a bad person.. It's just that when you develop things on linux, and nobody cares - because hardly anyone uses linux here - it sorta puts a downer on the whole thing - dont you think?

QUOTE
We're not releasing any source code or details about how the engine actually works, or how it interacts with the xlink kai servers, so you're stuck with win32.  Eventually we might release an engine for some other platform.


Lol... thats pretty much 100% right. Apart from the "might release". As I said above, engines for the OS's listed in the subject are scheduled. As for source code, and orbital server interaction information - no - I'm not making that public. There is no need. As I have said before, countless forks of the engine code, running on countless platforms, with the orbital / kai server software changing every week or so would be, in the words of Egon Spengler, "extraordinarily bad".

"Whatever you do, don't cross the streams!"

TD

 
QUOTE

As I have stated, on myriad occasions, engine ports for the OS's listed in the subject line are scheduled. I would not announce that fact, were it not true.


When is it scheduled for exactly?  I must have missed that part.

QUOTE

 Secondly, I think you are failing to understand the concept of the engine / ui seperation. The UI's which these people will be writing for other platforms will be able to talk to an engine running on *ANY* platform. The UI <--> Engine communication is simple a UDP stream.


No I understand this perfectly, and it's a good idea.  What you don't seem to understand is that if the engine is win32 only, and a win32 ui is available, one could simply vnc/rdc to the machine to control it.  I think the only 'remote' UI that's interesting is the one that runs right on the xbox.

QUOTE

It's just that when you develop things on linux, and nobody cares - because hardly anyone uses linux here - it sorta puts a downer on the whole thing - dont you think?


Yes I agree with this, and this is where I'm going with regards to a linux UI - why bother?  But I don't think the interesting thing here is people running linux on peecees, the interesting thing is xlink kai for linux-driven 'appliances'.  There may not be many people running linux on a pc, but there are certainly plenty of people running Linksys, Buffalo, etc routers/wireless gateways, TiVos, and such that DO run linux, and are ideally suited for an application like xlink kai that could work with no pc involvment at all.  The xlink application running right on the gateway could provide the best performance/least latency - especially important if the PC or xbox is connected wirelessly where every ms counts.

QUOTE

Lol... thats pretty much 100% right. Apart from the "might release". As I said above, engines for the OS's listed in the subject are scheduled. As for source code, and orbital server interaction information - no - I'm not making that public. There is no need. As I have said before, countless forks of the engine code, running on countless platforms, with the orbital / kai server software changing every week or so would be, in the words of Egon Spengler, "extraordinarily bad".

"Whatever you do, don't cross the streams!"


Ok, I just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly.  I don't agree with this;  I believe that a more robust orbital server/protocol design that could accomodate the challenges of 'countless forks of the engine code' would be a better plan.  That said, I do understand where you're coming from.





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DrSuess

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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2004, 10:09:00 AM »
all I have to say is I think Bo-Xlink will be sadly missed and we can only hope that some crew come up with a another bo-Xlink type program for Kai.  

For us poor folks that do not want to switch dashboards that sport a whole slew of features that I know I personally will never use.  :rolleyes:

I just want that simply "Launch DVD" option, clock update, and FTP(for updating my dash) that Evox has.  :P

BTW ... great work on Kai.  :beer:
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flat235

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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2004, 10:39:00 AM »
QUOTE
all I have to say is I think Bo-Xlink will be sadly missed and we can only hope that some crew come up with a another bo-Xlink type program for Kai.


Believe me, bo-xlink wont be missed at all ;) The stuff avalaunch, amongst others, have lined up for the xbox side of it will blow bo-xlink away.. no questions asked :)

TD
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flat235

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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2004, 10:53:00 AM »
QUOTE
When is it scheduled for exactly? I must have missed that part.


Impossible to put a date on it, but the first port will be the linux one - and I will build it shortly after the 0008 codepoint is released to the UI developers. From there, OSX and FreeBSD are trivial. The engine port itself it not a big issue - the whole thing is vanilla C++ - the only problems i forsee are Winpcap -> LibPCap issues - but I'm assured the differences are minimal.

QUOTE
No I understand this perfectly, and it's a good idea. What you don't seem to understand is that if the engine is win32 only, and a win32 ui is available, one could simply vnc/rdc to the machine to control it. I think the only 'remote' UI that's interesting is the one that runs right on the xbox.


Absolutely, but you must remember that a large number of users just have a Mac OSX box - no fancy routers, or TiVo - just an OSX box. Hence, I ask you this: What use would an OSX engine be without a UI for OSX? Thats the reason I'm doing it this way round - there will be no engine for other platforms until im 100% done with the win32 one, but thats no reason to make users wait an extra X weeks after the engine is released for other OS's before they can use it. Hopefully, by the time i release the OSX / Linux engines, there will be stable, feature rich UI applications already 100% written and ready to hook up to it.

QUOTE
There may not be many people running linux on a pc, but there are certainly plenty of people running Linksys, Buffalo, etc routers/wireless gateways, TiVos, and such that DO run linux, and are ideally suited for an application like xlink kai that could work with no pc involvment at all. The xlink application running right on the gateway could provide the best performance/least latency - especially important if the PC or xbox is connected wirelessly where every ms counts.


This is, of course, of massive interest to me. Running the engine on a linux powered Linksys router would be incredible - and by no means beyone the realms of possibility. However, I've been caught like this before - ie - thinking of some fantastic idea and losing sight of the bread and butter behind the whole thing. The Kai rewrite was undertaken to remove the most common roadblocks which users experience, not to play "what can we port it to next", or "what flash feature can we add which maybe 6 or 7 people will actually use. That said, I will not deny that it interests me - and, if I can figure a way round my reluctance to release engine source into the public, especially as GPL, then I will persue it.

QUOTE
I believe that a more robust orbital server/protocol design that could accomodate the challenges of 'countless forks of the engine code' would be a better plan.


This is something which I spent a long time deliberating. It's not an issue with how robust the architecture is - there are no known problems with the orbitals at this moment in time. It's more a case of keeping tight control on things, at this stage. I know from experience how these sort of projects can end up as basically trash when everything is made public - that's not a flame against OSS - it's a fact. I dare not thing how many public OSS projects would be *massively* more mature by now, had certain key components been "dictated" by one body, and not put up for debate by every man and his dog. It's just an opinion - but it's my opinion - and I'm the guy with the source :P :)

TD


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