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[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(Tone666 @ Jul 17 2008, 04:49 AM)

Hello... i just tried this and everything was ok it seemed..

One problem tho, one of the capacitors (the one on its own, the right side of the 2 front memory chips, has a small black plastic square next to it) it has blown and also came loose

Does anyone in the UK have a spare one of these?

Says on the side 220uf and 10v.. the rest of the board is perfect.. you think maplins would stock a suitable replacement??

Any help would be much appreciated!

Regards..

Tone

Looks like you didnt isolate it properly then...

Am in Germany and got a spare mainboard I could desolder it, shipping would take 2 days and cost you 2.50€~1.80GBP.
So send me a PM if you are interested.

[chadives]

Willhelm, I have been dying to see someone attempt a home reflow job with good solder.  I think that you are the man for the job! I realize it is a lot of work but I know people are itching to see it.

can you even get leaded solder in Germany any more?

No pressure though , well maybe just a little.

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(chadives @ Jul 17 2008, 05:46 PM)

Willhelm, I have been dying to see someone attempt a home reflow job with good solder.  I think that you are the man for the job! I realize it is a lot of work but I know people are itching to see it.

can you even get leaded solder in Germany any more?

No pressure though , well maybe just a little.

Yes we can still buy solder that contains lead, it is only banned from all electronics that children could get in touch with like TVs, consoles, PCs etc...

Am not sure what you mean because you dont need fresh solder to reflow the solder balls.
I assume though that what you mean is reballing the chips with lead solder balls which requires reflowing.

I have already looked into that but I came to the conclusion that it is not worth spending the money on the stuff you need since it will cost at least  1000€~1600$ if you want to do it properly.
So far nobody shipped any of the 360s I fixed back(give a life time warranty...) which makes me think that reflowing the existing solder balls does the same job...
I must admit though that I am additionally using an improved version of the x-clamp replacement so this can be another reason....

[chadives]

I do realize that you dont need fresh solder to reflow, but you have also stated that it is the crap lead free solder that is the problem in the first place.  I really hope that you have solved this problem with your method, however I am thinking about when I hook up my 20 year old NES and it acutually works!  Would be nice to think that we could be able to do the same with our xboxs.

As far as reflow goes, toaster oven/ standard ovens will work with a good way to measure the temp, there are even mods on the net how to add a controller to a toaster oven for heat profiles.  It would not be hard to achieve the proper heat profile manually either.  Also there is wax that you can get that is made to melt once you have reached a certain temp for further physical feedback.

Just an idea I can't get out of my head, probably more trouble than it is worth.  Only time will tell.

I will leave you alone on this one now that I know you are garunteeing your stuff for life.  You must be very confident that your fix will last.  Care to share what x clamp replacement you use?  Probably a trade secret anyway

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(chadives @ Jul 17 2008, 07:33 PM)

I do realize that you dont need fresh solder to reflow, but you have also stated that it is the crap lead free solder that is the problem in the first place.  I really hope that you have solved this problem with your method, however I am thinking about when I hook up my 20 year old NES and it acutually works!  Would be nice to think that we could be able to do the same with our xboxs.

As far as reflow goes, toaster oven/ standard ovens will work with a good way to measure the temp, there are even mods on the net how to add a controller to a toaster oven for heat profiles.  It would not be hard to achieve the proper heat profile manually either.  Also there is wax that you can get that is made to melt once you have reached a certain temp for further physical feedback.

Just an idea I can't get out of my head, probably more trouble than it is worth.  Only time will tell.

I will leave you alone on this one now that I know you are garunteeing your stuff for life.  You must be very confident that your fix will last.  Care to share what x clamp replacement you use?  Probably a trade secret anyway

The problem is more complex and is caused by a queue of unfortunate coincidences, the lead free solder is only one of them.
In addition with the uneven pressure(depends on their location) that lasts on the solder balls and the fast cooling down after turning the 360 off, the lead free solder balls get cracks.This makes each 360 a ticking time bomb that will get certain hardware errors to occur at the time when the counter reaches zero...
If you take one of these 3 factors away you get rid of the whole problem if it was only the leadfree solder most PC video cards and other components that are manufactured with the use of BGA would have the same issues.
So if you take the X-Clamps away and find a way to put even pressure on the chip so that each solderball carries the same weight you removed the factor of the uneven pressure caused by the flexing and the issues will most likely almost never occur like in older consoles.
There are always systems that break but not as many as we have here.
You cant really delete the second factor which is the cooling process but you can reduce the time in which the solder balls get the cracks by cooling it down as much as you can, for example water cooling would keep it nearly at the room temperature if not lower.
And the last option would be to replace the lead free solder.
Replacing the X-Clamps is the most effective method though in my opinion as everything will break sooner or later if it flexes, the cool downs only support the effect that the flexing has on the solder balls.
Hope this made sense as I cant be arsed to read through this again


The wax you have been talking about there is quite a nice thing the only problem is that you will have to do it for a bit longer since most of the solder balls are under the chips and dont get the direct airflow  that the wax was heated up with.
It would be quite interesting to see though so I think I will give it a go.
Do you have a link where you can buy this stuff?(if possible in the E.U)

I will make a tutorial when I am sure that it really works, I have tested it on 9 xboxes so far and the first one has been running for about 5 months now...
Am still improving it though, I already have something in my mind that I will try next time.

[chadives]

hey i will find out where to get that stuff tomorrow.

[HackerSupreme]

I bought some RROD 360 off of some company off of ebay. I am fucked. Looks as though someone was in it. It still had the X clamps, but you could tell it was opened, and when I took off the GPU heatsink, 20 pounds of thermal grease on the GPU.

Someone screwed up didn't do a good job on the X clamp replacement....wow...I emailed the ass holes asking for a refund or something...I don't know what they will do though...I am gonna heatgun tomorrow...see if it works or not.

Probably going to go hood with the Wax paper, I will report back. I might spread some flux and try to get it on the outer edges of the BGA...wonder if that will do anything.

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(HackerSupreme @ Jul 18 2008, 01:04 PM)

I bought some RROD 360 off of some company off of ebay. I am fucked. Looks as though someone was in it. It still had the X clamps, but you could tell it was opened, and when I took off the GPU heatsink, 20 pounds of thermal grease on the GPU.

Someone screwed up didn't do a good job on the X clamp replacement....wow...I emailed the ass holes asking for a refund or something...I don't know what they will do though...I am gonna heatgun tomorrow...see if it works or not.

Probably going to go hood with the Wax paper, I will report back. I might spread some flux and try to get it on the outer edges of the BGA...wonder if that will do anything.

Ye, never buy anything of companies that fix 360s you will only get the worst bull shit that they either fucked up themselves or that they cant fix(bought one that they tried to heatgun and the RAM was pressed to the mainboard and all the solder balls were flat...)
Most people on Ebay already tried to fix the 360s themselves but these are always fixable, just dont buy anything from companies.
Here in the E.U you have the right to return it within 2 weeks so have a look on the solder balls under the chips because they might have heatgunned it already and reballing isnt that funny...

So if you think it is too messed up just send it back and get your refund...

[chadives]

Hey wilhelm, the product that melts at temps is called a tempil stick.  They come for all different temperatures and is used primarily in welding operations.  the company that makes em is tempil and you should be able to go to a welding supply store and get the right one, they make one for 450F, 455F, 463F, 475F, 482F, 488F, 500F, ect.

What I do with this stuff if flake little chunks of it off the stick and put the chucks near what you are interested in gauging the temp.  When the specific temp is reached the stuff will melt(change phase to liquid).  That is why sometimes it is referred to as a phase change thermometer.  Once it is melted and you let your board cool, u just scrape it off like wax.

I have also seen thermocouples/DMM used for this but they are not rated for +/-1degree accuracy like the tempil stick, for that you will need calibration.  May want to use the stick and a thermocouple at the same time and note what the melt point was on your thermocouple/DMM and use that for your temp monitoring of the oven.

omega is another manufacturer that makes sticks and kits with ranges of sticks.  The closest distributor I found in Europe was UKWelder.com, but try ur local welding shop first as they wanted 11pounds for one stick which is twice what it costs in the states.  My technician at work is a very clever individual who has all sorts of reflow experience.  Not sure if he coined the usage of this stuff, but it works very well for this application.  He is a bottomless pit of knowlege for this type of thing so let me know if you have questions.

You may want to look into reflow heating/cooling profiles as well.  Not sure if there is a toaster oven out there that is big enough for this board, but there is a lot of homebrew stuff for reflow controllers for these things(not completely nessecary as it can be done manually).  Good Luck and thanks for showing interest in this idea.

[HackerSupreme]

QUOTE(Wilhelm_I @ Jul 18 2008, 07:15 AM)

Ye, never buy anything of companies that fix 360s you will only get the worst bull shit that they either fucked up themselves or that they cant fix(bought one that they tried to heatgun and the RAM was pressed to the mainboard and all the solder balls were flat...)
Most people on Ebay already tried to fix the 360s themselves but these are always fixable, just dont buy anything from companies.
Here in the E.U you have the right to return it within 2 weeks so have a look on the solder balls under the chips because they might have heatgunned it already and reballing isnt that funny...

So if you think it is too messed up just send it back and get your refund...

Looks as though all solder balls are OK. I will try heatgunning later today. I am doing a controller mod from hell. It will give me nightmares....never ever try to light up the ABXY buttons. Any of you. You will save yourself time and anger.

[DJEuthyphro]

I'm going to heat gun the ram on the underside of the board. Do I need to remove the cpu and gpu heatsinks before I do this? I'm thinking the screws i'm using might get red hot and do some damage or possibly expand inside the heatsinks. Also, if i'm just heat gunning the bottom of the board to start, do I still need to wrap it all up? I probably will, better safe than sorry. Thanks.

[DJEuthyphro]

QUOTE(DJEuthyphro @ Jul 18 2008, 03:27 PM)

I'm going to heat gun the ram on the underside of the board. Do I need to remove the cpu and gpu heatsinks before I do this? I'm thinking the screws i'm using might get red hot and do some damage or possibly expand inside the heatsinks. Also, if i'm just heat gunning the bottom of the board to start, do I still need to wrap it all up? I probably will, better safe than sorry. Thanks.

Nevermind, I found the answer myself. According to Wilhem I the arctic silver isn't rated for these high heatgun temperatures.I'll remove the heatsinks and clean off the arctic silver. These forums are a plethora of good information.

[Wilhelm_I]

QUOTE(chadives @ Jul 18 2008, 10:11 PM)

Hey wilhelm, the product that melts at temps is called a tempil stick.  They come for all different temperatures and is used primarily in welding operations.  the company that makes em is tempil and you should be able to go to a welding supply store and get the right one, they make one for 450F, 455F, 463F, 475F, 482F, 488F, 500F, ect.

What I do with this stuff if flake little chunks of it off the stick and put the chucks near what you are interested in gauging the temp.  When the specific temp is reached the stuff will melt(change phase to liquid).  That is why sometimes it is referred to as a phase change thermometer.  Once it is melted and you let your board cool, u just scrape it off like wax.

I have also seen thermocouples/DMM used for this but they are not rated for +/-1degree accuracy like the tempil stick, for that you will need calibration.  May want to use the stick and a thermocouple at the same time and note what the melt point was on your thermocouple/DMM and use that for your temp monitoring of the oven.

omega is another manufacturer that makes sticks and kits with ranges of sticks.  The closest distributor I found in Europe was UKWelder.com, but try ur local welding shop first as they wanted 11pounds for one stick which is twice what it costs in the states.  My technician at work is a very clever individual who has all sorts of reflow experience.  Not sure if he coined the usage of this stuff, but it works very well for this application.  He is a bottomless pit of knowlege for this type of thing so let me know if you have questions.

You may want to look into reflow heating/cooling profiles as well.  Not sure if there is a toaster oven out there that is big enough for this board, but there is a lot of homebrew stuff for reflow controllers for these things(not completely nessecary as it can be done manually).  Good Luck and thanks for showing interest in this idea.

Thanks a lot for this information I will definitely look into this.
11 GBP is pretty much thats like 16€ or 23$ and shipping must still be added as well, lol.
Will look for it in local stores first and maybe I get lucky on Ebay as well.

QUOTE(HackerSupreme @ Jul 18 2008, 11:48 PM)

Looks as though all solder balls are OK. I will try heatgunning later today. I am doing a controller mod from hell. It will give me nightmares....never ever try to light up the ABXY buttons. Any of you. You will save yourself time and anger.

I thought about doing that actually, as I still got some 5mm white LEDs(25000mcd).
How long did it take you so far, is it really that hard to do?

QUOTE(DJEuthyphro @ Jul 19 2008, 02:05 AM)

Nevermind, I found the answer myself. According to Wilhem I the arctic silver isn't rated for these high heatgun temperatures.I'll remove the heatsinks and clean off the arctic silver. These forums are a plethora of good information.

And there is a second reason if you dont do that and you reach the melting point or get close to it(the solder joints will become softer and softer the higher the temperature is), the pressure will push the GPU/CPU to the mainboard and flatten the solderballs below, these shorten out then and the only solution to your problem will be a reball of the whole chip...

[HackerSupreme]

OK well I tried to heatgun my board, but with not too good results. I kept the CPU heatsink on because I had just used the X clamps on it and I didn't want to have to take off the X clamp and put it back on. I tried to insulate everything with freezer paper and aluminum foil, aluminum foil against the mobo, freezer paper, then more aluminum foil. These are my results.

Bubbly GPU, not too noticeable in the picture, but a little more noticeable in real life.




So I am heatgunning, and I hear a big crack and some big smoke comes up, so that was my cue to stop. This is what happened.







O jeez...well I got to go get some capacitors.

[KrInEn]

Well I started off with the E74 so I concentrated on the GPU and ANA chip for 1 min warm up and 3 mins full. Then it gave me a RRoD error 0022. So I figured that I did not heat it long enough, so I did 1 min warm up then 4 mins full.

Then started it up and shot out a 0102 at me so I pushed on all of the components till I got to one of the ram chips then it shot a 0103?!? anything that I should try next?

And now 0101 LOL I just can't win!