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[computernerdx2]

QUOTE(FM77 @ Jan 31 2005, 06:40 AM)

-FM77, notes it would help if I had an address...

Tecmo Inc.
PO Box 5553
21213-B Hawthorne Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90503

I think writing letters would be a great idea. There's no sure-fire way to go abotu all this, but writing letters certainly wont hurt anything - just so long as we remain professional and polite about our discontent just as FM77 has suggested. They aren't going to pay any attention to a bunch of letters that say, "Yo, WTF? Ninjahacker's my bro so you can go suck my (insert profanity here) and go to (insert profanity here) after I (inster profanity here) yo mama you (inster profanity here) (insert profanity here)... you get the point.  

[FM77]

QUOTE(CrAzYcr@sh @ Jan 30 2005, 11:46 PM)

[cloudyimpulse]

Well I agree 100% with ninja friend, and that you definitely need to see a lawyer.  That is why I suggested you take a look at the ACLU in your local area ASAP if you don't have any type of representation.

[DocDiZ]

IMPORTANT: Read me ALL

IMHO: Please see these organisations (EFF etc.) before handing over the forum's contents.  The reason I say this is because if you hand over said contents, the buck won't stop at you but there may well be multiple individual lawsuits against the major coders/skinners (especially those trusting enough not to use their real email addresses, rather than yahoo addresses).

I see the big B being sued next and then ever person who has posted an .xpr file (that's every DOA3 skinner).  From the purpose of community we would all benefit from you fighting this and will donate to your cause, it is much easier to concentrate our monies on this first single suit then be divided and individually sued in a couple of months.

At the mo, they can't touch the rest of us because they don't have email address or anything but I see this changing.

@cypher: Could you clarify one thing, does the forum's contents include PMs between members?
And as you say you just run the forum, you can't be held accountable for its contents but think about the rest of us before you just give up without trying.

DiZZY

[cypher35]

you are correct, and i have no intention of giving them the forums database files unless it is absolutely manditory...

to clarify, yes the database contains EVERYTHING from e-mails and logged ip addresses to private messages, and of course all of the posts.

yes, they have requested these files, and no, i have not yet given it to them...  all will be clarified when i contact my attourney.


i don't think that this is necessarily a reason to panic though because it is doubtful that they would have a solid case against the vast majority of ninjahacker's members.

as always, i will keep you updated here...

[xboxhizza]

QUOTE

Basicly, they just hit me with 100+ complaints about the website with the intent to shut it down for good as well as take all of the forum records and files so that they can keep tabs on all of the members...

There is little i can really do about this because, although they may not have an entirely solid case against me, the simple matter is that they have more money than i do. They can spend all they want on attourney fees because they have the money to do so. As a college student without a solid job, i do not have any money to throw away on attourney fees.

As much as i love the website, there is little i can do to save it apart from spending thousands of dollars defending it. Unless something miraculous happens in the next week or so, i doubt ninjahacker will be coming back. I still however will need help with the money to hire an attourny just to attempt to settle out of court... I don't know if that's going to happen or not, but the result will likely be that i drop the website and they drop the charges aside from their attourney fees.

Anyway, that's the expected forcast for this week... we'll see if it really plays out like this when i talk to my attourney later on in the week.

Cypher You just cant give up. This is a scare tactic Tecmo is using against you because they know they don't have a real case here in America. The are fully counting on you to give in without a fight because that is the only way they can win. You will not win if you are scard or pessimistic about your situation, that is exactly what Tecmo wants! IF TECMO GOES TO TRIAL IT IS THE HIGHEST LIKELY HOOD THAT THEY WILL LOSE AND THEY KNOW IT!

Don't play in to thier hands. The Electronic Frontier Foundation and American Civil Liberties Union would definately be interested in this case. They were founded to help people in this type of situation like yourself. And They will take youre case for free especially when they know Tecmo has a very weak case against you. THE LEGAL PRECIDENT IS ON YOUR SIDE IN THESE TYPES OF CASES!

DON'T FORGET THE ENTIRE XBOXSCENE AND XBOXSAVES COMMUNITY IS WILLING TO HELP YOU FINANCIALLY ALSO! SET UP A LEGAL DEVENSE FUND SO WE CAN DONATE!

Cypher said:

QUOTE

It's doubtful that the "press" would take much interest in this, and i am fairly confident that a boycott on our part would have little or no effect on Tecmo's sales...

I am not going to be sour about this. I am not out for revenge. All i want is to get out of this without exponentialy multiplying my debts by the time i get out of college. If at all possible, i intend to start over with a new website that will have strict limitations on file attachments and images. However if that is not possible, it was a great 2 years, and i will be sad to see it end.

THE ENTIRE XBOXSCENE AND XBOXSAVES COMMUNITY IS AT YOU SIDE TO  AIDE YOU WITH DONATIONS. SET UP A LEGAL DEFENSE FUND AND ASK THE XBOXSCENE AND XBOXSAVES ADMINISTRATORS TO HELP ADVERTISE FOR YOU LEGAL DEFENSE FUND ON THE FRONT PAGE AND TO ASK ALL ITS MEMBERS AND VISITORS TO SEND BOYCOTT LETTERS TO TECMO! THE CAN ALSO ASK ALL OF THIER WEBSITE PARTNERS TO JOIN THE EFFORT.

YOU NEED TO GET EVERYONE AWARE OF THIS IF YOU WANT THEM TO HELP! BARELY ANYONE WILL EVEN READ THIS ONE THREAD ALONE OR KNOW WHAT NINJAHACKER IS, BUT MANY WILL WANT TO HELP YOU ONCE THEY FIND OUT AND THEY WILL TELL OTHERS ABOUT IT AS WELL!

THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE FOR THE ENTIRE XBOX MODDING COMMUNITY. DON'T FORGET THAT. WE ALL WANT TO HELP YOU. WE CAN DO SO BY SENDING BOYCOTT LETTERS. I SHOWN BELOW THAT A BOYCOTT FROM JUST THE  XBOXSCENE COMMUNITY WOULD DEFINATELY HAVE A VERY SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON THEIR FUTURE PROFITS. JUST THE THOUGHT OF SUCH A LARGE BOYCOTT WOULD DEFINATELY MAKE THEM RECONSIDER THIER ACTIONS AGAINST YOU AND THE MODDING COMMUNITY.


The XboxScene admins are:

XanTium
Syrus
HSDEMONZ
Iriez

Please contact them on this forum to see if this can be set up!


AGIAN HERE ARE THE FINANCIAL LOSS FOR TECMO IN DOLLARS DUE TO A BOYCOTT JUST FROM THE XBOXSCENE COMMUNITY :

QUOTE

Cypher we need to ask the XboxScene Administrators to pin a notice on the front page or something for all members and visitors of xboxscene to join a boycott against Tecmo by sending an email or handwritten letter to Tecmo saying that we will imediatly cease to buy any and all future Tecmo or TeamNinja Products if they do not immediatly drop there lawsuit against you and Ninjahacker.net.

XboxScene has 192,971 total members, last checked, which continues to grow every day not including the tens of thousands of visitors.

In Itagakis lastest interview he said that DOA4 was expedited to be TeamNinjas very next future release, followed by Ninja Gaiden2, CodeCronus and DOAX Beach Volyball 2.

We can assume that each game will cost at least 50 dollars each.

For example if we only consider DOA4 alone:
192,971 multiplied by 50 is $9,648,550 dollars that Tecmo would lose to a boycott!

If only half the XboxScene members joined the boycot that would be
96,485 x 50 = $4,824,250 dollars lost to a boycott!

Now if we considered all 4 games to be released DOA4, NG2, CC, and DOAXBV2:
We have 192,971 x 200 = $38,594,200 dollars lost to a boycott!!!

If only half the XboxScene members joined the boycot that would be
96,485 x 200 = $19,297,100 dollars lost to a boycott!

This e-mail boycott campain would put an extreme amount of pressure on Tecmo. Just the mere thought alone of potentially lossing 40 million dollars to 200,000 people threatening to partake in a boycott should really make Tecmo think about whether the potential monetary loss of 40 million dollars is really worth continuing their lawsuit against Cypher and Ninjahacker.net.

Cypher they could also add to the notice for all to please donate to you for a legal defense fund. You could ask for hopefully 5-10 dollars or more each but at least a 1 dollar donation for your legal defense.

If all only half the XboxScene members donated only 1 dollar each that would still be 100,000 dollars.

I know many would be willing to donate including myself. We are all very gratefull for the site you have given us.
The XboxScene admins are:

XanTium
Syrus
HSDEMONZ
Iriez

Please contact them to see if this can be set up! This is Very Important for all of us who love the DOA and XBOX modding scene! We all love ninjahacker.net for many years and none of us want to see it get killed!

[xboxhizza]

QUOTE

to clarify, yes the database contains EVERYTHING from e-mails and logged ip addresses to private messages, and of course all of the posts.

Cypher can you please delete all posts and attachment files by doaxlover before your court date or as soon as possible. Mainly just in the Team Ninja Section of The forum. Thank You!

[AgentofEvil]

The fact is, thanks to the DCMA, there's a pretty good chance that they DO have a case against him (I would be pretty shocked if they went in guns blazing without doing some research first), of course this is where an organization like the EFF can really help, but ultimately the choice to persue them is Cyphers, not yours.

Also, I would be pretty suprised if Cypher could go into the site and delete your old stuff without getting himself into further legal hot-water. I'm sure neither the Judge nor Tecmo's lawyers would look kindly upon his tampering with the site (aka: evidence). You really shouldn't ask him to jepordize himself further.

[Smax]

).
Those offers really warm my heart up (and I'm sure the same is for cypher35). Let's just keep it up.
I'm sure none uf us will turn away when the time to contribute will finally come.
This is one of the best things we can actually do for cypher35 right now.

6. About EFF

Contacting EFF *is* actually another very good idea. They can help in two ways:

 a. give counseling and advice - as they are specialized in *exactly this* kind of legal matters;

 b. eventually, give some resonance to this story.

On the latter point I would be cautious anyway: I'd propose that EFF either publish this story when cypher35 will be in a safe zone from a legal point of view, or do it in an "independent" way, without cypher35 direct involvement (unless cypher35 is willing to use this to prematurely enter into the "Hackerdom Hall of Fame" )

7. Conclusion

We used to have fun and build friendships on NH.
This all has been teared down by TECMO.
None of us will easily let this pass.

But at the same time we have to have the maturity to think about the consequences cypher35 is facing right now.
From the scared posts and PMs I'm reading these days, none of us wants to be in his shoes now.
So, everyone, think about *this* before calling a religious war against TECMO: it is very important that *nothing* of what we are going to do can ever be used against cypher35 in the future.

There's a time to fight, and there's a time for healing.
Let the storm pass, and let's find ways to *actually* help cypher35.

See you soon (alive and hacking)
- Xmax

[AgentofEvil]

To all who are stressed or worried about this:

Keep in mind that we're all members of NinjaHacker.net, a site built in the interest of hacking games to play on our hacked consoles. The name itself implies what a legal gray-area the site resides in, and in turn it should have been obvious to everyone that the possibility that Tecmo or Namco would come gunning for us always existed. This really shouldn't be that big a shock to anyone's system, outside of Cypher (since of course, he's the one that has to deal with the fallout.)

No one should be demanding or insisting on things from Cypher right now, after all, he's the one that's ACTUALLY in legal trouble RIGHT NOW, not any of the rest of us. He built a great site that we've enjoyed for a couple of years now, and rather than demand things from him, it's far more seemly to simply offer him our support. He's already under pressure from Tecmo, he shouldn't be feeling pressure from the community as well.

While I would of course like to see him fight this with the EFF representing him (I personally feel that if it makes it to court this has the potential to be a landmark case, with widespread repercussions), we all need to understand that ultimately Cypher must choose his own path.

If they start coming after other members, well, just remember that you are a member of NinjaHacker, not NinjaPuppy or NinjaFlower, and the chance of this always exisited. If you didn't expect to potentially find youself in a position of peril, why on earth did you join a site with hacker in the name?

Now, you also must understand that while there's a pretty good chance they'll come for other members if they win this first case, the chances that they'll come after most members are slim indeed. Remember, in order for them to come after you they'll have to go through the site logs, trace your IP, get a warrant to present to your isp to get your info (this is a major privacy issue, and I highly doubt most isps would be stupid enough to just hand over the info.)

That may not sound like much, but imagine if they decided to do it for every member that posted an app or skin; quite honestly, it WON'T BE WORTH THE MONEY AND EFFORT to track down most members of the site. If I had to guess, I would say that coders have the most to fear. They may go after skinners, but if so only the most prolific; the awards they could get in court from the majority of the sites' contributors wouldn't be worth the effort. Also remember how distributed we are geographically. They'd have to deal with law, and legal teams all over the globe if they really wanted to "get" us all. That, again, would cost them way more than it would be worth.

Rather than stressing about what might happen to us, and making demands or insisting he persue this course or that, lets instead just offer Cypher our support (not pressure, support), and deal with the rest if/when it comes.

Sorry for posting two messages in a row, I felt it was only appropriate, since this message is not directed at anyone in specific, and I didn't want it to be seen as such...

[Smax]

QUOTE(AgentofEvil @ Jan 31 2005, 03:31 PM)

Sorry for posting two messages in a row, I felt it was only appropriate, since this message is not directed at anyone in specific, and I didn't want it to be seen as such...

[Instigator]

I have to agree that it's not yet time to panic.  It seems like tecmo is probably following that old addage about "cut off the head and the body will die."  So they probably think that if they shut down NinjaHacker, the modding community will disperse and that will end the story.  However, if they do want to take things further, then it's most likely that they'll go after the main coders on the site to make their point.  But, as has been pointed out, tracking down everyone that they may want to sue would take a lot of bucks and a lot of effort, so they may stop once NH is gone and then see what happens.  We shouldn't start to panic until/unless cypher is forced to hand over the site's database and we all start getting special notices from tecmo.

Aslo, I think it's kind of unfair (and rude) to ask cypher to delete just one person's posts from the site.  Not only is evidence tampering illegal and likely to put cypher in more trouble than he's already in, but why should just one person be singled out for such special treatment?  If you're going to ask cypher to get into more trouble, then why not ask him to save the rest of us by just blowing away the entire site?  That way no one but cypher can get into trouble.  But that's even more unfair - to cypher.

We all knew the risks when we joined NinjaHacker and we all accepted them.  Now, we must all waiting to see what's going to happen.  The site grew as a community, it should go down as a community (if that's its fate).  We shouldn't be running away.  We need to think about the person who brought us all together.  Who made 2+ years of fun and learning and skinning possible.  We owe it to him to make sure that he gets out of this mess in the best condition possible.  After all, he's taking the heat for all 10,000+ members of the site - even though he really only deserves 1/10,000 of the blame.  Let's save cypher first, then lets worry about ourselves.

It's unlikely that tecmo will go after the members this time.  So, if you're really worried about tecmo's wrath and want to save yourself trouble, then play it safe and don't join another hacking site in the future.

[xboxhizza]

QUOTE

Aslo, I think it's kind of unfair (and rude) to ask cypher to delete just one person's posts from the site. Not only is evidence tampering illegal and likely to put cypher in more trouble than he's already in, but why should just one person be singled out for such special treatment? If you're going to ask cypher to get into more trouble, then why not ask him to save the rest of us by just blowing away the entire site? That way no one but cypher can get into trouble. But that's even more unfair - to cypher.

I didn't think he could get into trouble by deleting stuff before he actually went to court because he didn't say that the court supeanud the site for evidence already. Sorry It was only 4 files.

[Sacrilego]

I wouldn't be surprised if they're reading these posts this very moment...

 I'd really hate to see cypher and his friend lose it all just because of our love for video games.
It's really all up to them, and I'm very sure they're under a lot of pressure, so let's not make it worse for them.

I know we all would like to know more about what's going on, but I feel that we're only confusing and probobly even damaging things more.

Cypher, I highly recommend you speak to a lawyer and don't say anything else about this unless he says it's ok.

I wish I could give you some good advice but IANAL.

[adam1972]