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[medievil]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 21 2009, 01:05 AM)

You're right - referring to it as 'HDD crippled' is wrong.

They're crippling the CONSOLE by removing OOTB functionality which has nothing to do with XBL or ToS for Xbox Live.

I'm sorry it takes someone to point this out to you. Maybe spending less time referring to others as 'dirty pirates' and possibly looking at this from another angle might serve you better.

what does XBL have to do with it?? thats just a part of the ban... they are banning the console for playing pirated games.. banned from XBL is simply PART of the ban, as is taking away HD installs and corrupting game saves...you guys are assuming it is just an XBL ban and that sit, but thats not what banning the console really is... it is a multiple of things to PUNISH people for modding and pirating games

QUOTE(Lifter @ Nov 21 2009, 01:30 AM)

The argument they use by speculating that the timing was a nefarious profit based conspiracy- so what!  Weak ass argument there.  They can block or not block violaters of the TOS whenever they want.  If they're allowed to doi it (and they are) then it doesn't matter why they choose to ban on a certain date.

As for the console sending info back to MS, that is clearly part of their Live service as well.  Another patheticly weak argument.

The only legit argument is the fact that in order to cripple the HD install functionality,  Microsoft went in and altered files on the users' hardware without the users' permission.  This is actually something they deserve to get nailed on. Even MS will claim that new feature is Tied to the Live service, you can't just mess with someone's property like that.

and again that is incorrect.. M$ has every right to disable features on their copyrighted hardware when they determine it is being used unlawfully.
 Satellite companies do it all the time (They loop cards because you modify them, etc...)
the absolutely ONLY way you'd have a case is if the HD was rendered useless, it is not, they removed a feature because your consoles security has been compromised so they are not willing to allow it to continue, but the drive still functions, you can save games, etc.. ONLY on the banned console...


seems to me like all the people whining must have a bunch of games they downloaded installed on HD and can no longer play them

[death69inc]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 21 2009, 01:51 AM)

what does XBL have to do with it?? thats just a part of the ban... they are banning the console for playing pirated games.. banned from XBL is simply PART of the ban, as is taking away HD installs and corrupting game saves...you guys are assuming it is just an XBL ban and that sit, but thats not what banning the console really is... it is a multiple of things to PUNISH people for modding and pirating games
and again that is incorrect.. M$ has every right to disable features on their copyrighted hardware when they determine it is being used unlawfully.
 Satellite companies do it all the time (They loop cards because you modify them, etc...)
the absolutely ONLY way you'd have a case is if the HD was rendered useless, it is not, they removed a feature because your consoles security has been compromised so they are not willing to allow it to continue, but the drive still functions, you can save games, etc.. ONLY on the banned console...
seems to me like all the people whining must have a bunch of games they downloaded installed on HD and can no longer play them

[Toddler]

QUOTE(MaulerX @ Nov 20 2009, 09:33 PM)

Why take it so personal? It was a general term to describe the fact that YOU CAN STILL DO THE SAME THINGS YOU WERE DOING. Only offline. You want the cake and eat it too. The mere act of breaking the seal when you opened the console voided your warranty. If M$ wanted to be @$$ holes they could have fried your system and you couldn't do jack about it. I lol at your ignorance.

No, you can't do the same things you were doing.  You can't play games from the hard drive, and you can't move saved games to another console.  Both of those features are functions of current 360s the moment you plug them in, without ever joining Live.  It's a simple point.

[Chan163]

QUOTE(MaulerX @ Nov 21 2009, 04:33 AM)

If M$ wanted to be @$$ holes they could have fried your system and you couldn't do jack about it. I lol at your ignorance.

You're an idiot, that's all you are! You think it's lawful for a car manufacturer to disable your car because you bought a third party replacement part? You're completely insane.

[medievil]

QUOTE(Toddler @ Nov 21 2009, 06:06 AM)

No, you can't do the same things you were doing.  You can't play games from the hard drive, and you can't move saved games to another console.  Both of those features are functions of current 360s the moment you plug them in, without ever joining Live.  It's a simple point.

yes they were.. BEFORE you broke the seal and modded the system...at that point, M$ has every right to disable features

QUOTE(Chan163 @ Nov 21 2009, 06:37 AM)

You're an idiot, that's all you are! You think it's lawful for a car manufacturer to disable your car because you bought a third party replacement part? You're completely insane.

third party replacement part for a car doesn't keep hurting the car makers bottom line, they simply void your warranty and will not fix it for free...

Altering a 360 to be able to play pirated games DOES hurt M$ bottom line, is against the terms and conditions which clearly state that if you do you run the risk of losing features on the console or rendering it useless...
it's really very simple, you do not have the right to alter it and expect ANYTHING to still function on the console if M$ detects the alteration. Doesn't matter WHY you alter it, the mere fact that you did give M$ every right...

[Xizer]

What's with all these assholes coming in here voicing support for Microsoft vandalizing other peoples' property and why have they not been banned for trolling?

[Aeikozz]

Yes Seriously some of these people are just trolling now.

[Rev666]

People need to stop with their Judge Judy TV law education and wait and see how it all turns out.
I'll read all your harebrained theories about what caused the bans, but when it comes to the legal system its a bit much.

[MaulerX]

QUOTE(Chan163 @ Nov 21 2009, 01:37 AM)

You're an idiot, that's all you are! You think it's lawful for a car manufacturer to disable your car because you bought a third party replacement part? You're completely insane.

Seriously? Apples to Oranges. Try looking at my point without the F*uck Microsoft glassess.

If you fried your system soldering a mod chip, it's all your fault and your screwed. What if your system was to get fried by Microsoft? How can you prove in a court of law that it wasn't you who did something wrong?

I know people are upset and this lawsuit (that hasn't even been filed) gives them some sort of hope at revenge. But realistically speaking, I just don't see it getting very far. I guess we just have to wait and see.

[medievil]

QUOTE(MaulerX @ Nov 21 2009, 07:26 PM)

Seriously? Apples to Oranges. Try looking at my point without the F*uck Microsoft glassess.

If you fried your system soldering a mod chip, it's all your fault and your screwed. What if your system was to get fried by Microsoft? How can you prove in a court of law that it wasn't you who did something wrong?

I know people are upset and this lawsuit (that hasn't even been filed) gives them some sort of hope at revenge. But realistically speaking, I just don't see it getting very far. I guess we just have to wait and see.

to add to this further, what if it got fried by Microsoft ONLY because it had been modified.. same code on a non-modified 360 doesn't fry it...so in essence the Mod is WHY it got fired...
 all the whiners don't have a leg to stand on, dunno what makes them think they can steal and still have rights..lol

[bodybag]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 21 2009, 08:43 PM)

to add to this further, what if it got fried by Microsoft ONLY because it had been modified.. same code on a non-modified 360 doesn't fry it...so in essence the Mod is WHY it got fired...
 all the whiners don't have a leg to stand on, dunno what makes them think they can steal and still have rights..lol

I must agree, us modders live by the sword, and we shall die by it......

the only thing i dont agree on is " dunno what makes them think they can steal and still have rights..lol"

come on, they have more rights than the victim now.......ouch my back hurts in prison, this bed it too hard...........i know, I will sue them and rake in £80,000.........we all know it happens.........

just my point......thats all!

[Darkelysium]

QUOTE(Mr_Milenko @ Nov 19 2009, 10:48 AM)

Though the idea of suing the shit out of Microsoft because we got caught doing stupid shit is a great idea in this economy, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone got permanently banned from Live! because of this ridiculous lawsuit. You have to take into account all of the legal shit Microsoft tied into there TOS, for example:

1) You own the hardware, you do not own the software wich is on the hardware or makes the hardware work, you are licensed by Microsoft to use the software wich in turn runs the hardware.. Shitty yes, legal yes, yours? Nope.. You can in fact legally replace the software that operates the hardware, if it ALL gets replaced. This is why projects like Xbox-Linux Free60 and libxenon are legal.

2) They do not cripple your save games, your Xbox can in fact still function as a gaming console. You just cant use your saves on another Xbox, this sadly is also perfectly legal. The xbox runs on a license system everything is hardcoded with DRM, If your console gets banned it can no longer sign personal content, therefore it cannot be used on another system.

3) Downloadable Content, again.. Licensing, You do not own the DLC, you own a license to use it. This license can be revoked at anytime for any number of reasons. If your gamertag is still active and you are using your DLC on the same xbox you have purchased it on, then it will still work on THAT xbox. If you are using it on a different xbox you have to be signed into live to use it.

4) Physical Media, this is where it kind of boggles me... But according to Microsoft/The Videogame Industry, You don't really own this. You own a license to use it in your game console, You can not make a digital copy unless authorized by the owner of the software. When you sell/trade/lend out your copy of the game, you are transfering your license to a 3rd party and are no longer legally allowed to use it, hence the reason you can not run it from your HDD anymore and a disc is needed in the drive.

Microsoft has everyone by the balls, They are a multi billion dollar corporation that employs hackers AND modders to battle everything that we throw at em. They know how to word everything in order to keep there asses out of trouble. Obviously Microsoft would do this seeing as its CEO is the richest pirate in the world. Gotta love a country where a company can start up by stealing an operating system, re-branding it, and earn billions.
[/rant]

See that is where there is one problem. This licensing system that you say Microsoft is trying to tout won't hold much water in court. This is because when you purchase the game you sign no contract nor do you agree to any license prior to the purchase. On this point Microsoft has no leg to stand on. As for the hardware and its required software. They advertise a system which plays xbox 360 games as well as has the dashboard feature. At no point in their advertisement do they state that you are purchasing only the hardware and a license to use their software. Should they cripple the software the 360 no longer functions as advertised. Therefore they are violating any number of consumer protection laws and could be slammed for false advertising.

Unfortunately for Microsoft and the Video game industry this licensing argument is equivalent to swiss cheese and most judges will take the opportunity to chastise them if given the chance. They are treading very very dangerous legal waters, and in these waters they are a small insignificant fish in comparison to the power a judge wields. Also DRM software is currently ill favored by many members of the legal community because it skates on thin ice due to the retail nature of the products it is included in as well as the affects it has on things outside of their domain of influence ie pcs, ipods, etc.

I'll be straightforward. I am currently doing a lot of research into what M$ can and can't due in these circumstances. The law is convoluted and the Circuits have differing views on what can go on. It frustrates me to no end how corporations disregard the law. I graduate from law school next May so this has gotten me interested in an area of law I once thought was boring.


TOS and EULA aren't bulletproof and most clauses can be disregarded to uneven bargaining power. I mean some EULA and TOS can be lumped under deceptive business practices when you consider how the product was marketed.

[guenthar]

If people don't already know it is illegal to modify someones data on their system without there permission so what Microsoft did by disabling features and the ability to move the hard drive to another system was illegal.  They could be criminally charged in the same way a person who wrote a virus and sent it to other computers to modify data would be.  Creating a piece of software to modify data on a system and putting it on peoples systems without the persons knowing is pretty much the definition of a virus and many people have been put in prison for that.

PS.  If an individual did the same thing and was found out they would go to jail.

PPS.  If when you logged onto Xbox Live it had a message that data was going to be modified on your console and said what was being changed and gave you the option of refusing it then it would have been legal since you would have been told and given a choice.

[blueinfinity]

Honestly is M$ wanted to save face, they should of temp banned the consoles with a simple (fix your shit and you can come back on live" message.

I specifically went out and got a 120 gig hdd to replace my 20gig drive PURELY because of the "play games off your hdd" feature.

For a mod I did to my console and not the hdd. I lost the ability.

I only have minor law training, but I do think M$ could get themselves pretty deep in shit for the code modifying.

A good example of this is with windows. Unless you failed at cracking the activaty counter. The worse thing that happens is you are not able to update your windows any more once they prove its a stolen copy.

If M$ were to release an update that would brick every pc with a stolen copy of windows on it. You don't think law suits would be flying? (I realize you could reinstall and fix this, but don't argue that dumbass side of things, you know where I'm coming from with this)

The simple fact ythey never tried that crap with windows proves they themselves know better. So to turn around and corrupt (yes i don't care how minor, a change is still coruption) to the original xbox is not allowed.

Same idea behind the fact that they can NOT force an update on you without asking first.
Forcing you to accept an update to play a new game which you know will screw with files and restrict your console is the same situation as them simply installing the update without asking.


Shawn

[guenthar]

What do you think stripping the console of it's code signing rights is except a modification of the code on the console.  They wrote a piece of software that did that and that software would be considered a virus since it got on your console without your permission and knowledge.

The updates you get are done with your permission since it says you need to update and unless it has changed since I last updated it is your choice to update and isn't forced upon you.  (I know you can't play newer games without it but that is up to you)

PS.  They don't have the right to revoke the signing rights on your console unless you give them permission to do so.  No TOS allows someone to break the law and commit a criminal offense.

PPS.  If they would have just disabled your access to the Live service then that would have been on their server and would have been no problem as long as they give prorated refunds to the people paying for Xbox Live that wanted them.