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[xnoelahg]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Jun 26 2007, 08:39 PM)

You need to clarify what you mean by that. Don't trot out the usual old crap about being a Mod, unbiased etc etc. Mods are not entitled to an opinion or reply?

 No, I just thought you were more intelligent than that post implicates.

QUOTE(iwanttheagrocrag @ Jun 26 2007, 11:14 PM)

I enjoy paying that much just to keep the cheats out, thats just the main reason.

 Cheaters are still there, but in the regard that less cheaters are there, it is a nice feature, but I think if we made our own matchmaking service we could necessitate the same particulars MS does.

[g8crapachino]

People whining about paying $50 per YEAR for Xbox live need some perspective.  ...cost of service for an Apple Iphone, $60 per MONTH.  Average cost of cable internet access, $50 per MONTH.  Average cost of gasoline, $60-$100 per MONTH.  One large cup of coffee from Starbucks per day, $150.00 per MONTH. ...the list can go on and on.  

Like many things on this list Xbox live is not a life requirement so if you don't like it just don't buy it, but don't act like an immature idiot complaining about it.

[xnoelahg]

QUOTE(g8crapachino @ Jun 27 2007, 03:58 AM)

People whining about paying $50 per YEAR for Xbox live need some perspective.  ...cost of service for an Apple Iphone, $60 per MONTH.  Average cost of cable internet access, $50 per MONTH.  Average cost of gasoline, $60-$100 per MONTH.  One large cup of coffee from Starbucks per day, $150.00 per MONTH. ...the list can go on and on.  

Like many things on this list Xbox live is not a life requirement so if you don't like it just don't buy it, but don't act like an immature idiot complaining about it.

 This is what really gets to me. People like you haven't listened to a word people like me have said. We're not complaining about the fact that it's $50. Like chancer said, if it was $5 a year, we'd still complain, and that's my point. We shouldn't be charged for Gold over silver, PERIOD. It's a waste of money, and in no way comparable to gas prices (if they went down, people would be happy. We're happy to buy a consumable product like that).

 I will stress, in bullet form, what others have failed to listen to as far as "our" arguements go (and then that's it).

* Silver member ship is free and gives you everything (IM/Text messaging, Voice Chat/Voice Meme, Friendslist, Access to Marketplace, and Game updates). Gold only unlocks 'multiplayer mode'

* We're using our own bandwidth. There are no dedicated servers to eliminate unfair lag/host issues.

* By having a ping limit on games, the competition is already defeated, as the end user is not given a choice of HOW to play online, but that it's either pay MS to access your own bandwidth, or don't use it.

[Fyb3roptik]

I agree with everyone who says its a rip that $50 a yr only gets multiplayer unlock. I feel the same way. Now if they threw in free download points every month or something that would kick ass. The fact of the matter is.....there IS dedicated hosting. If XBL goes offline you cant just fire up the game and act as a dedicated host (most of the time, some games DO support this). but 90% of the time the XBL servers act as the dedicated host(server) for the game. Yes you use your bandwidth, but the online multiplayer doeesnt work w/o someone somewhere acting as a server......

[coldasice]

IMO 50 a year is acceptable. I mean I can demo games before I go buy them, and that Agies Wing game was free, that was nice. I guess as much as I hate MS theres really no other options. Its their system and they provide their own online service, as much as we all bitch, it is what it is. So I just give MS a quick hand job and get to play my games for a year. No biggie.

[Chancer]

QUOTE(Hopeful @ Jun 26 2007, 11:11 PM)

With all due respect, no. The guy had a point, albeit overly bluntly stated.

First, WHAT employees? It doesn't take scores of people or beaucoup cash to run a glorified matchmaking service.

One single part of any business rarely supports the employees for just that section. I never said the cash raised would be distributed to merely the live section of MS workforce. In fact quite the opposite the funds will be used amongst other projects. (I think I said that)

QUOTE(Hopeful @ Jun 26 2007, 11:11 PM)

IF YOU WANT, you can enjoy live enough to pay the cost happily. THATS ALRIGHT. But guys, don't push it on others and ridicule someone for finding lower value than price.

 No one can push live on anybody. As stated this is not a compulsory service. Glorified match making or not, each individual will decide if the price is worth it. The point is it hardly makes valid counter argument saying what a rip off it is and how it has nothing worth having but still paying for it. the natural response would be, why are you paying then. I am not saying people should not want a free service, everyone likes something free, but it really will not change unless people do something about it. If someone feels ridiculed by a counter argument in a discussion thread then that is not something I am qualified to deal with and they would need to look at why they feel insecure about such a minor thing.

QUOTE(ydgmms @ Jun 27 2007, 02:50 AM)

I guess thats the only argument of mine you could disagree with? When I clearly stated later (and you quoted) that I don't expect it to be free. I don't expect MS to do shit, I've learned over the years.

Not really but i had previously made all the points in response to other posts. You had merely repeated the same stuff others were saying.

QUOTE(ydgmms @ Jun 27 2007, 02:50 AM)

My point was that IF there WERE viable options, we would be using it. But there isn't.... And your 'love it or leave it' argument is just ... well a non-argument.

 The love it or leave it argument is very valid. For something that everyone states is a rip off, no value, costs MS nothing is purely advertising etc I would repeat, Why would you buy it. It is a gaming service it is not like having to buy food or similar. It is a leisure activity that is not necessary to survive therefore purchase or not is indeed a choice. What I am saying is this is not some forced service.

QUOTE(trey85stang @ Jun 27 2007, 04:28 AM)

so how much do you get paid to be a mod here?  Surely you arent doing this for free.. you should be raking in at least half the advertisement income,  right?

 I don't see the analogy in that. This I do in my spare time. If you had actually read my post regarding this you would see I am a member first and foremost and this is leisure time I spend. It is not my life or any sort of business that I am running. My business activities I do charge for. I don't really understand the point you are making as a  comparison with MS charging for XBL

QUOTE(xnoelahg @ Jun 27 2007, 06:11 AM)

 We shouldn't be charged for Gold over silver, PERIOD.

 This point is very interesting. I would like to know how many people would consider it worth the money, if Silver did not exist. So if there was just the gold service containing the only features it does now, would people feel less aggrieved? Perhaps some of the bad feeling about this is because people are getting similar features in the Silver for nothing. Is this the mistake MS has made?

[Boweveljoe]

Consoles are becoming computers. All of this online play mess coming about. Only the Wii is all about being a console, and not some web browsing, online playing, movie playing entertainment all in one center

As for Live, my console is now banned. I find it funny because I was actually spending money to download live games and such, but now I am blocked...meaning I cant spend anymore money on Live, so now Microsoft isnt making any money off of me.

As for the service, I loved playing Rainbow 6 Vegas, and buying Live cards off of people for $30 for a year wasnt anything at all. Live makes playing games online alot simpler because its all going through one thing. You pop in the disc and click the Xbox live option and you are playing in seconds.

It does suck having to pay more money, but it sure isnt World of Warcraft where you pay to only play ONE game. You can play any game that has a Live option which is about 90% of 360 games.

But it all comes down you, the consumer. Its you who pays for it, if you dont want it, dont get it. End of story. If it still bugs you that much, dont complain to us, call Oprah. She will get it straightened out.

[0794]

I think that MS should continue their paid Gold membership and then have two other memberships that are free and would mirror the exact opportunities presented by (1) Sony with the PS3 and (2) Nintendo with the Wii - it would not take very long for everyone to realize the incredible service that XBL offers and how affordable it is.  Even young teens without jobs should be able to acquire a year membership from a birthday or Christmas present - esp with the high cost of games which are more than a year of XBL.

I have 3 XBL memberships so that my friends can all play ranked games on H2 when they come over.

[AirGibson]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Jun 27 2007, 03:18 AM)

 This point is very interesting. I would like to know how many people would consider it worth the money, if Silver did not exist. So if there was just the gold service containing the only features it does now, would people feel less aggrieved? Perhaps some of the bad feeling about this is because people are getting similar features in the Silver for nothing. Is this the mistake MS has made?

It's already been established that these features are not a "cost" to them any more than MSN messenger costs them.  Keep in mind that most of these services like voice chat are handled by the console that you own and the bandwidth that you pay for as a peer-to-peer connections.  Additionally, I personally consider those features part and parcel of what I paid for when I plunked down $400.

To more directly answer your question, people would still complain for the same reasons.  "These things are expected to be free."  As mentioned previously, it is like a coin slot on a TV antenna (and a crippled antenna at that when you compare the features of the voice / text chat to the free alternatives on the PC).  You don't charge for that kind of stuff.  If you try to, obviously people will complain.  But if that is the only option, and the price is tolerable, than people will suck it up and pay it anyhow.

[0794]

QUOTE(AirGibson @ Jun 27 2007, 02:10 PM)

In the end, all we're left with is the $50 being a somewhat tolerable, unjustified expense that cannot be avoided if multi-player abilities are desired.

Good attempt at a non-biased evaluation of XBL - however it was short-sighted.  You cannot begin to truly asses the justification for the expense because we don't fully understand how the entire MS Xbox business model fully integrates XBL as a revenue source with their marketing and gaming production divisions.  Meaning, we don't know what would change if this revenue source was shifted elsewhere or how badly the integrity of XBL would suffer without this revenue stream.

Think about how much a music CD or movie DVD costs at retail vs actual production costs.  Nobody would argue that CDs or DVDs should only cost the $1-$4 to actually produce because we know there is more value than intrinsic cost.  Same as you cannot compare the justified cost of XBL because there is way more than just what we see on the consuming end.

Plus, I would rather play with those paying for a service than if it was just free - think about the presence of cheating on the network if access was truly free and there were no repercussions for banned accounts.

[xnoelahg]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Jun 27 2007, 08:18 AM)

 This point is very interesting. I would like to know how many people would consider it worth the money, if Silver did not exist. So if there was just the gold service containing the only features it does now, would people feel less aggrieved? Perhaps some of the bad feeling about this is because people are getting similar features in the Silver for nothing. Is this the mistake MS has made?

 Definately. Don't get me wrong, IMO I still believe that MS could still make plenty money on XBL if everything that's currently offered to gold was free, but that's the underlying point I've been making. Gold is a ripoff when all we're getting above silver members is the online multiplayer unlocked. Gold should come with some better benefits to charge us something, IMO.

 I was beginning to think you were ignoring my arguement. I'm happy now

[xnoelahg]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Jun 27 2007, 08:18 AM)

 This point is very interesting. I would like to know how many people would consider it worth the money, if Silver did not exist. So if there was just the gold service containing the only features it does now, would people feel less aggrieved? Perhaps some of the bad feeling about this is because people are getting similar features in the Silver for nothing. Is this the mistake MS has made?

 Definately. Don't get me wrong, IMO I still believe that MS could still make plenty money on XBL if everything that's currently offered to gold was free, but that's the underlying point I've been making. Gold is a ripoff when all we're getting above silver members is the online multiplayer unlocked. Gold should come with some better benefits to charge us something, IMO.

 I was beginning to think you were ignoring my arguement. I'm happy now

QUOTE(AirGibson @ Jun 28 2007, 03:26 AM)

3) Demos / Ads - MS's expenses in this area are covered here by, surprise:  advertising costs.  Obviously, no customer is going to want to pay for advertisements anyhow.  They know this, thus they offer it for free.

 It should also be iterated here that companies recieve money to display advertisements. This is why channels you recieve with your own antenna, are funded by the commercials (a company makes them, then pays that channel to air them). Microsoft, in this case, is recieving a steady income from companies who's ads appear on LIVE (What, do you think they had 'Shooter' advertisements because they assumed you'd like it?).

QUOTE(AirGibson @ Jun 28 2007, 03:26 AM)

Are we seriously saying we need to pay for bug / exploit patches?

 And just to emphasize, silver users get bug/exploit fixes as well as kernel/dashboard updates for free. Content that's deemed as an "expansion" is sold.

 If they are indeed insuinating that we need to pay for bug / exploit fixes, then they agree that everyone should get them, but only *some* need to pay for it.

QUOTE(AirGibson @ Jun 28 2007, 03:26 AM)

Likewise, this implies that XBox live has been a cheat free utopia because you pay for the service.  You cannot be serious.

 I seriously hope they're not serious. I've seen cheaters on XBL ever since my membership began. Especially in GoW.

[AirGibson]

QUOTE(g8crapachino @ Jun 28 2007, 06:01 AM)

  If you think $50 is too much don't pay for it.  If you complain that $50 is too much yet still pay for it then the question I should ask is *Why*?     How do you justify that $50 a year is too much?...your only real comparison is Sony which has a comparatively crappy online service and they are losing money and market share hand over fist.

Good job not reading the thread there, champ.  All of your "points" have already been covered.  

[batmike1990]

QUOTE(trey85stang @ Jun 27 2007, 04:28 AM)

so how much do you get paid to be a mod here?  Surely you arent doing this for free.. you should be raking in at least half the advertisement income,  right?
iphone:  $60 month,  provides me with internet phone service and other services 24/7.

Cable Interweb: $50 month,  provides me with unlimited access to the web and everything the web has to offer.

Gas: $240 month (actual amount I spend) gets me from point a to point b,  which is my job and my home.  Gas is needed so that I can make money.

XBL: $50 year,  allows me to play online games.

hmm... im just not seeing the value of live.  You really helped put it into perspective.

*claps* well said my good man

[ruciz]

I like buddys reasoning.. what I have in bold.

QUOTE

"There are bandwidth costs, there are things that go above and beyond", said Chris Paladino of the Xbox Community Team. "I think it goes back to this unified system. We have to have voice communication, text communication, now we're doing cross-platform. There's Marketplace, there are demos, and all these things don't just mystically hover around that you can pull them out of the ether."

Microsoft PR manager Michael Wolf later appended Paladino's statements by emphasizing that, as a Live customer, "you get what you pay for" with the service's myriad of options. And in Wolf's estimation, the customer satisfaction numbers for Microsoft's Live service have been "through the roof". But, as a means of comparison, Wolf also equated it to other services one might pay for outside the realm of gaming.

Their MSN messenger service (along with ICQ, Yahoo, AIM, Skype) all offer the voice and text communication for FREE on PCs - which is what the 360 does in reality. I donno, might have missed the ball on this one..

The demos are avilable to silver subscribers, which is a FREE subscription.. they use the bandwidth also, but they don't pay - so the GOLD subscribers pay for themselves and the silvers to download their demos and use marketplace? Okay, I guess I understand the robin hood theory used here...

Now the bandwidth, I know gaming takes up an emmense amount of bandwidth - considering you can get ad-free websites with 2gb storage and 100gb/mth bandwidth for FREE, and fully featured website with domain, 150gb storage and 1400gb/mth transfer (increasing by 16gb/mth for 12 months) for about $100 a year..

Anyway, they really shown us why its $50USD a year to play on live.. to enable cross platform, so PS3 owners who pay nothing per year can play with the MS boys