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[Archalien]

Overpriced yes......

Based on obsolete box, material, and design from 10 years ago yes.....

Probably has not paid for the required license to legally manufacture and sell an xbox 360 compatible controller yes...........

Sending paypal or credit card for said unlicensed product over state lines = federal interstate wire fraud yes.......

A good way for someone who doesnt know better and can afford it to get an arcade stick for fighting games in a market bereft of licensed products yes.......

BTW I just got a Hori VF5 stick, gutted it and replaced stick with  JLF upgrade w/ octagonal gate and buttons w/ happ convex all for over 100$ less than what they are charging.  All I need was a scew driver and a soddering iron, and the face button and joystick soldering was rookie easy!

Pics this weekend when the paint is finished.

[bubsie]

QUOTE(AcidPenguiN @ Oct 24 2007, 01:07 PM)

the thing about xarcade is that they use knock off parts, have terrible build quality for the price you're paying, and lag significantly. That's not to say the arcadeinabox isn't overpriced though. . .

If you're really going to have issues with price then the only logical thing to do is custom build. I just spec'd out some parts today, with about $25 for a good sanwa stick, 6 to 12 buttons at about $2 a pop and a minimal amount for building supplies brings me to an estimate of about $60 then probably only about 3 to 10 hours build time depending on however you decide to build it. . . makes a hell of a lot more sense than paying $150+ for a stick that may or may not have quality parts.

$60 for parts might be a little low.  I price out some of the parts.  

Happ Joystick $9.95
Buttons @ 1.55/each x 9 $13.95
Wired 360 controller $40.00(I know, it be less if you bought a used one)
2’x4’ ¾” MDF sheet $9.00
8”x14” plexi $6
Screws, glue and other misc things $5(rough guess)
Paint $10

So that is about $94 give or take.  I did not factor in the cost of power tools(tablesaw, router, drill and bits), wires, soldering equipment, etc.  I usually take about 15 hours per stick.  So if take into account all those factors, $150 doesn’t seem so bad right?  Also, if you look around at other sticks, you will find that most arcade quality sticks are more or less that price.  Mas stick goes for $99 for a psx or xbox and will cost you more if you want a 360 pcb, custom builders on SRK charge $150-$180 for psx so again, it be a bit more for 360.  

But if you want to save some money, you can always buy one of those Hori fighting sticks and go to lizardlick to pick up a JLF and some buttons.  Total cost will be about $100 plus some elbow grease will get you a nice little stick ready for some SSF2T HD remix action next year.

BTW, before anyone saids anything, I don’t work for arcade in a box or nothing.  I can care less if they sell 1 stick or 1000 but just wanted to give people an idea on maybe why the pricing is what it is.  

[MrFish]

QUOTE(Archalien @ Oct 24 2007, 09:03 PM)

Probably has not paid for the required license to legally manufacture and sell an xbox 360 compatible controller yes...........

Whoopie-fuckin'-doo. Microsoft's platform monopoly is not (yet) enshrined in law.

As long as the device violates no patents or trademarks, there's not a thing they can do about it.

I'd be very surprised indeed if there were any patent over a wired USB controller that Microsoft could bash anyone with. The ring of light and the wireless protocol are maybe patentable, but this device has neither.

The pad's distinctive design is trademarkable (at least the cosmetic elements are*), but this stick doesn't look anything like it. The Xbox, 360, Microsoft, etc. terms and logos are trademarks, and it would be an infringement of trademark law to use them to falsely claim origin, endorsement, etc. But this stick doesn't do that. The important word here is 'falsely': it doesn't infringe trademarks to claim that your software runs on Microsoft™ Windows XP™, as long as you don't claim that it is Windows XP™, or that Microsoft™, not you, is selling it. Likewise, it infringes no trademarks to state that your device works with the Microsoft™ Xbox 360™  (though it would if you gave the impression that Microsoft manufactured or endorsed it) .

The most damning thing to your argument, however, is that even if it were guilty of patent infringement, it's still perfectly legal for the consumer to buy and own. Unless and until there's an injunction prohibiting its sale, it would still be perfectly legal for anyone to buy, sell, or own it. And even when they do, the existing devices are still legal to own. And still legal to (casually) resell, under the doctrine of first sale.

* trademarks can't be used for functional elements to make some kind of 'perpetual patent' (for example, there's case law over electric razors: the cosmetic stuff is trademarkable, but you can't use trademark law to stop your competitors using circular rotors, or arranging them in a triangle).

QUOTE(bubsie @ Oct 24 2007, 09:46 PM)

Wired 360 controller $40.00(I know, it be less if you bought a used one)

You can also knock $20 off of that by buying a third-party controller. It's not like you're going to use the case.

[pdottz]

QUOTE(AcidPenguiN @ Oct 24 2007, 01:08 PM)

call me silly but how do you control with the punch pad? Is that set of 4 buttons just like, a d-pad or something?

exactly. it works nicely. very clean and fluid motions. i use it almost on a daily basis.

[AcidPenguiN]

QUOTE(bubsie @ Oct 24 2007, 09:46 PM)

$60 for parts might be a little low.  I price out some of the parts.  

Happ Joystick $9.95
Buttons @ 1.55/each x 9 $13.95
Wired 360 controller $40.00(I know, it be less if you bought a used one)
2’x4’ ¾” MDF sheet $9.00
8”x14” plexi $6
Screws, glue and other misc things $5(rough guess)
Paint $10

So that is about $94 give or take.  I did not factor in the cost of power tools(tablesaw, router, drill and bits), wires, soldering equipment, etc.  I usually take about 15 hours per stick.  So if take into account all those factors, $150 doesn’t seem so bad right?  Also, if you look around at other sticks, you will find that most arcade quality sticks are more or less that price.  Mas stick goes for $99 for a psx or xbox and will cost you more if you want a 360 pcb, custom builders on SRK charge $150-$180 for psx so again, it be a bit more for 360.  

But if you want to save some money, you can always buy one of those Hori fighting sticks and go to lizardlick to pick up a JLF and some buttons.  Total cost will be about $100 plus some elbow grease will get you a nice little stick ready for some SSF2T HD remix action next year.

BTW, before anyone saids anything, I don’t work for arcade in a box or nothing.  I can care less if they sell 1 stick or 1000 but just wanted to give people an idea on maybe why the pricing is what it is.

yeah I suppose I did underestimate on the cost, I didn't think of having to buy a controller to use its guts. I appreciate that you took the time to give a better estimate of time/cost.

about the hori stick thing, I've got one of the DOA4 ones but its in rough shape, the buttons and stick are worn down, do you know if the buttons are a standard size, like would I be able to grab some off LL and just do a quick & easy swap or is there something stopping me?

QUOTE(pdottz @ Oct 25 2007, 08:21 AM)

exactly. it works nicely. very clean and fluid motions. i use it almost on a daily basis.

crazy, I'll have to give one of those a shot some time. I'm in the process of collecting new ideas for a stick design and I'll give this some consideration.

[bubsie]

QUOTE(AcidPenguiN @ Oct 25 2007, 06:06 AM)

yeah I suppose I did underestimate on the cost, I didn't think of having to buy a controller to use its guts. I appreciate that you took the time to give a better estimate of time/cost.

about the hori stick thing, I've got one of the DOA4 ones but its in rough shape, the buttons and stick are worn down, do you know if the buttons are a standard size, like would I be able to grab some off LL and just do a quick & easy swap or is there something stopping me?

The holes for the buttons will accept the 30mm sanwa snap ins(I don't know how the screw ins.)  You just have to file or dremel away the 2 tabs on each button so it's a circle.  Here's some guides to get you started...

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=131221
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=140160
http://forums.xbox.com/1/5956513/ShowPost.aspx#5956513

[Archalien]

QUOTE(MrFish @ Oct 24 2007, 11:53 PM)

Whoopie-fuckin'-doo. Microsoft's platform monopoly is not (yet) enshrined in law.

As long as the device violates no patents or trademarks, there's not a thing they can do about it.

I'd be very surprised indeed if there were any patent over a wired USB controller that Microsoft could bash anyone with. The ring of light and the wireless protocol are maybe patentable, but this device has neither.

The pad's distinctive design is trademarkable (at least the cosmetic elements are*), but this stick doesn't look anything like it. The Xbox, 360, Microsoft, etc. terms and logos are trademarks, and it would be an infringement of trademark law to use them to falsely claim origin, endorsement, etc. But this stick doesn't do that. The important word here is 'falsely': it doesn't infringe trademarks to claim that your software runs on Microsoft™ Windows XP™, as long as you don't claim that it is Windows XP™, or that Microsoft™, not you, is selling it. Likewise, it infringes no trademarks to state that your device works with the Microsoft™ Xbox 360™  (though it would if you gave the impression that Microsoft manufactured or endorsed it) .

The most damning thing to your argument, however, is that even if it were guilty of patent infringement, it's still perfectly legal for the consumer to buy and own. Unless and until there's an injunction prohibiting its sale, it would still be perfectly legal for anyone to buy, sell, or own it. And even when they do, the existing devices are still legal to own. And still legal to (casually) resell, under the doctrine of first sale.

* trademarks can't be used for functional elements to make some kind of 'perpetual patent' (for example, there's case law over electric razors: the cosmetic stuff is trademarkable, but you can't use trademark law to stop your competitors using circular rotors, or arranging them in a triangle).
You can also knock $20 off of that by buying a third-party controller. It's not like you're going to use the case.

Who said anything about trademarks or copyright infringment?

I said they didnt pay for the license, which M$ DOES control, how many 3rd party wireless or cheap asian knock off controllers do you see.......none? very fvery few if any b/c M$ constructed the communication protocols and licensing very specifically to prevent unlicensed products.
Notice MAS doesnt have a 360 model......

Im not sure where the legal line is between claiming its an xbox 360 controller, a licensed product, etc
What they're are doing isnt much more than reselling a controller with a sticker on it. regardless of whose controllers he frankensteins and then resells, M$ could shut them down if they wanted to.

Most sticks of this nature are custom 1 offs by hobbyists, the fact that this is being represented as a full fledged company does not bode well for them.

[MrFish]

QUOTE(Archalien @ Oct 26 2007, 05:31 AM)

Who said anything about trademarks or copyright infringment?

You did.

QUOTE(Archalien @ Oct 26 2007, 05:31 AM)

I said they didnt pay for the license, which M$ DOES control...

And because of that they're breaking some law (They're not). The three principles they could be sued under are Copyrights, Patents, and Trademarks. As the very idea of a copyright suit over their own original product is asinine, it's pretty safe to deduce that you're alledging patent or trademark infringement.

What, exactly, are you thinking they need a license for, other than patents or trademarks?

QUOTE(Archalien @ Oct 26 2007, 05:31 AM)

regardless of whose controllers he frankensteins and then resells, M$ could shut them down if they wanted to.

No they can't. Read up on the "Doctrine of First Sale". You could disect a Mad Catz, take a dump on it, and sell it as modern art. Hundreds of times, if you wanted to. There's no grounds to sue you if all you're doing is buying things, altering them and selling them again.

[slipstream]

QUOTE(Archalien @ Oct 26 2007, 05:31 AM)

I said they didnt pay for the license, which M$ DOES control, how many 3rd party wireless or cheap asian knock off controllers do you see.......none? very fvery few if any b/c M$ constructed the communication protocols and licensing very specifically to prevent unlicensed products.
Notice MAS doesnt have a 360 model......

your right, you dont see any cheap, 3rd party WIRELESS controllers, but there are plenty of wired ones, which this is. As for if he needs to license it, i dont see why. If i bought a controller, painted it, and re-sold it, would I need to license the controller? i doubt it. since he is not manufacturing the controller board (which could be copyrighted) or the design (again, copyright) i dont see why he would need to license it.

[curiouscreature]

QUOTE(Lush @ Oct 24 2007, 05:46 AM)

this is awsome... i wanna build myself an arcade cabinet and use this....

even though i'm only a am moder(when it comes to the 360) but i'm extreamly experienced in fabrication, it's actually what i do for a living, i've already begun converting an old stand up arcade machine(which i believe was a FPS) into a usuable xbox 360 stand up machine, i've got everything but the cosmetics worked out, an am currently working on the same thing but one of those sit down pac man arcade consoles. i'll have the picture as things progress......if anyone knows of a good graphics artist to help with the cosmetics, i would appreciate it!

[Archalien]

QUOTE(MrFish @ Oct 26 2007, 06:03 AM)

You did.

And because of that they're breaking some law (They're not). The three principles they could be sued under are Copyrights, Patents, and Trademarks. As the very idea of a copyright suit over their own original product is asinine, it's pretty safe to deduce that you're alledging patent or trademark infringement.

What, exactly, are you thinking they need a license for, other than patents or trademarks?

No they can't. Read up on the "Doctrine of First Sale". You could disect a Mad Catz, take a dump on it, and sell it as modern art. Hundreds of times, if you wanted to. There's no grounds to sue you if all you're doing is buying things, altering them and selling them again.

Someone needs to hit school and reading class a little harder.....

Nowhere in my op did the words trademark or copyright appear.......

[MrFish]

QUOTE(Archalien @ Oct 26 2007, 05:40 PM)

Someone needs to hit school and reading class a little harder.....

Nowhere in my op did the words trademark or copyright appear.......

Indeed: you actually stated that you believe Microsoft has a vaild counterfeiting claim against this product, which implies one of two things:

- You believe Microsoft has a valid patent, copyright, or trademark claim against it.
- You know bugger-all about intellectual property law, and imagine there's some kind of 'platform monopoly', for which you need some kind of 'platform license'.

To the former, I don't know why you're so hung up on copyright and trademark, given that I addressed patents as well (maybe you missed both sentences addressing the preposterous suggestion that Microsoft might have a defensible patent pertaining to wired arcade sticks (hint: if they did, they could have shut down the PS2 completely, rather than just take its rumble) ).

I left the latter unspoken, in the hope that you might save some face, but by all means keep digging.

[Archalien]

QUOTE(MrFish @ Oct 26 2007, 06:19 PM)

Indeed: you actually stated that you believe Microsoft has a vaild counterfeiting claim against this product, which implies one of two things:

- You believe Microsoft has a valid patent, copyright, or trademark claim against it.
- You know bugger-all about intellectual property law, and imagine there's some kind of 'platform monopoly', for which you need some kind of 'platform license'.

To the former, I don't know why you're so hung up on copyright and trademark, given that I addressed patents as well (maybe you missed both sentences addressing the preposterous suggestion that Microsoft might have a defensible patent pertaining to wired arcade sticks (hint: if they did, they could have shut down the PS2 completely, rather than just take its rumble) ).

I left the latter unspoken, in the hope that you might save some face, but by all means keep digging.

What cracker jack box did you get your law degree out of?
Adjust the spectacles too, nowhere did I mention patent or counterfit claim wtf???, the only term I used was license, which doesnt imply anything..... glazed knuckle!

One does not need a patent, copyright or trademark to enforce a license.

As far as shutting up while your ahead...... please take advantage of it, if you knew 1/2 of what your purporting you would know it was lawsuits from the company Immersion that shut down everyones rumble and M$ just paid up sooner.

Again my original advice stands..... go back and hit the books.

This post has been edited by Archalien: Oct 26 2007, 11:07 PM

[gatorayde]

STFU already ^

If you are so set on it being a license infringement/whatever BS you spit out, why don't you walk your ass over to microsoft, ask mr gates himself whether or not he gives a shit about a 3rd party (which violates absolutely no licenses/patents/copyrights/etc.), overpriced arcade controller? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

If you still don't see anyone's point, take a look at cars. Why can companies make exhaust/head/intake/etc... 3rd party kits for them? Not one company has said nor ever will say, "you can't make that exhaust setup because it goes on one of our cars"... Have you ever seen anyone sued? Didn't think so  (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[MrFish]

QUOTE(Archalien @ Oct 26 2007, 11:06 PM)

the only term I used was license, which doesnt imply anything..... glazed knuckle!

One does not need a patent, copyright or trademark to enforce a license.

A license is a contract. To enforce a license, one needs either there to be a contract (which does not just materialise out of the blue). If there's no pre-existing contract, the other party has to be infringing some exclusive intellectual property right you have (which will be either a copyright, a patent, or a trademark) for them to need to be in a contract with you. Otherwise, they can just tell you to fuck off, because they're breaking no laws.

You'll notice, when you go to Wal-mart, you're not required to sign off on many pages of contract just to buy a pad. Compare, when you buy a satellite receiver.

There's no license. Microsoft's attempt at a platform monopoly is not enshrined in law.