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Author Topic: The End Of The 3 Red Lights!  (Read 1416 times)

Kurto2021

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2007, 09:55:00 PM »

well since this one sounds silly I will just wait for a better solution.

Why do the Xboxes with the thermal pads already installed break?
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brywalker

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2007, 10:15:00 PM »

QUOTE(Kurto2021 @ Mar 16 2007, 04:26 AM) *

well since this one sounds silly I will just wait for a better solution.

Why do the Xboxes with the thermal pads already installed break?


Because of the flex of the motherboard due to the X retension device on the heatsinks.
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Xandegui77

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2007, 10:26:00 PM »

I said that I would post videos and photos and I will.
I had problem with my pc. I made the video with my digital camera (Casio EX-Z60) and the video is not working on PC, I have just audio. It's a problem with a codec but I reinstalled a lot of codec packs and still not working. mad.gif
I send the videos to my friend and he will post on YouTube. ASAP I post the link here.
I put the photos on photobucket and I will post them tomorrow.

In a single brazilian forum we have 30 console fixed with this silly mod just in two days. But there is more than this becausa there is a limit of one post per sign in. But Pacote fixed 5 just today.
A lot of these fixed consoles had early a "towel fix", reballing, and hot gun fix but died in a few days and nothing could fix them. But with this silly mod, all the consoles are fixed now.
I'm amused! It's incredible. ohmy.gif  blink.gif
I really don't know what is the scientific explain for this and for how long my 360 will survive.
I don't know why so many console bricked in Brazil. Humidity? Heat? huh.gif

I really want that someone from xboxscene, a respectable one, make this mod on a bricked 360 to give the credibility that everyone in this forum wants. Come on guys, it is silly but is functioning! Come on guys, this mod is inexpensive, very easy and fast to do and is reversible too. You don't need to use hot gun or make a reballing, you just need a rubber and 10 minutes turned on with the 3RL. When you turn off then turn on again, the 3RL will be gone. laugh.gif  laugh.gif

Mine is functioning for 13 hours straight. I turned on and off a few times just to see if it's stable.
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kidman64

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #93 on: March 16, 2007, 01:16:00 AM »

QUOTE(brywalker @ Mar 16 2007, 04:46 AM) View Post

Because of the flex of the motherboard due to the X retension device on the heatsinks.

so removing them should help?
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drastic

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #94 on: March 16, 2007, 03:02:00 AM »

my 360 went back to 3rol/"checkerboard" after 3 weeks of working flawlessly with first the "toothpick trick" and second the "heatgun fix"


anxious to try out the "glue and eraser" solution tomorrow ...  i want to play ninja turtles ! yeah!!!!

 pop.gif  brasil!!  love.gif

QUOTE(Xandegui77 @ Mar 16 2007, 05:33 AM) *

 you just need a rubber and 10 minutes turned on with the 3RL.




 unsure.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif
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Mr.Chiaroscuro

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #95 on: March 16, 2007, 04:13:00 AM »

QUOTE(mattygabe @ Mar 16 2007, 12:03 AM) View Post

Forgive my candid thoughts here, but maybe the best idea would be to reflow them by hand (heat gun), and then apply the heat sinks to stop the vicious cycle.  Honestly I feel uncomfortable insulating one of the warmest components in the box, regardless of if it is producing quick results.


Almost imposssible to reflow them by using just a heat gun. There are a lot of small components (mainly declouping capacitors) around the memories, very near to them. If you try a heat gun around the memories, those components will fall out the MoBo first. CPU and GPU you can do that because there is nothing around (although I have tried the hot gun in CPU/GPU and got only temporary results, mainly because it also warms the MoBo).
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Xandegui77

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #96 on: March 16, 2007, 06:38:00 AM »

QUOTE(drastic @ Mar 16 2007, 05:33 AM) View Post

my 360 went back to 3rol/"checkerboard" after 3 weeks of working flawlessly with first the "toothpick trick" and second the "heatgun fix"
anxious to try out the "glue and eraser" solution tomorrow ...  i want to play ninja turtles ! yeah!!!!

 pop.gif  brasil!!  love.gif
 unsure.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif


"Toothpick trick"??? Is there a link to this trick??
In our forum here in Brazil, the heat gun fix is now abandoned. It can damage the board. The rubber mod is proving suficient and efficient to fix bricked 360 with code error 0102 and 0020.
I hated Ninja Turtles. I don't knows what they did with the game but it's not as fun as the arcade version that I played when was a kid.
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Mr.Chiaroscuro

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #97 on: March 16, 2007, 07:03:00 AM »

TUTORIAL: Rubber Pads Mod - Possible solution for 3RLs error code 0102

This tutorial describes a method to avoid the Xbox 360 3RLs with error code 0102, which causes freezes, artefacts and graphical errors.

First a disclaimer: follow these instructions at your risk and will. Only open your console if you are familiar with eletronic equipments such assembling PCs, etc. It is really easy to perform, but mistakes can be done and I do not assume any responsabilities for your acts.

Now some general thoughts about the 3RLs and my experience with them. last October my console started to freeze. First not very often, later on it started to get really bad, freezing after a few minutes of gameplay and finally giving me the fatal 3RL. When it froozes, the screen was just like paused, without any artefacts or graphical errors. The console sometimes frooze in the middle of a sound, like a beep. I could not return to the dash, I could not turn the console off using the controller. I could remove the disk from the drive, but the screeen was still frozen. Turning the console off and on again just frooze it again. At time same time by brother's console start to show problems too, freezing as well, but with weird graphical error and artefacts. Since none of our consoles have any kind of guarantee I start to look for a solution. First I tried the hot air gun method, trying to resold the CPU/GPU and NorhtBridge. Note that I was using a professional hot gun desk and I am fully capable of doing this job (doing it with all care, very quickly around the chips edge). Here I may note that I could not perform such trick in the memories ifselves, because they are BGA mounted in the board very close to small components (manly declouping capacitors) that will just fell down from the board before the memory could be repaired by the hot air flow. I tried it several times with limite success. The console worked again, but only for a few days. But that gave me an indication that it was not a fault in the CPU/GPU itselves, since the problem is random (a chip that stop to work stop to work period). So it should be really a problem in the BGA cold dry sold. Since I already performed the hot gun over the CPU and GPU my attention was pointed to the memories. I noticed that when manipulating the motherboard, if I put a small pressure over the memories that lies in the botton of the motherboard the console started to work again for a limited time. Then I came to my conclusion, which I explain bellow:

Why I believe the 3RLs errors are related to the memories beneath the motherboard: the GPU and CPU warms a lot. They get really hot. The cold BGA solder used in the memories are very sensitive to high temperatures and specially to the great range of difference of temperature when the console is warming up/cooling down (the motherboard may be flexing a little). The temperature and the flexing can crack the solder joints, or at least weaker them. Combined with the fact that four of the memory chips are placed in the inferior side of the motherboard, against the gravity force, this could lead to small displacements in the joints, a bad contact that is reported as the 3RLs in the memory test of the boot sequence of the 360. This bad contact can cause a range of different errors (mainly 0102) due to the fact that the memory is shared between CPU and GPU. Depending which of the memory chip is presenting the problem, a different memory address is affected and different symptons can arise. Please note that I am not blaming only the gravity in this situation (after all it is not a strong force) but also the process of the flexing the motherboard when the warms up/cools dowm (that also affects badly the memory joints in the inferior side of the motherboard).
It was necessary something that keep the memory chips firmly in place, very tightly with the motherboard. I tried different "foots" or pads for the memories, and came out with this solution. The main idea is to introduce a small (enphasys on small) pressure over the memory chips that are mounted in the inferior side of the motherboard, to keep them as much tight with the motherboard as possible, preventing some contact errors. Do not bend your motherboard. Rubber (cutted from normal plastic eraser) was choosed because it is a cheap non-thermal conductive material and easy to mold. You can use any material which can be mold and cut, as long as it does not deform over time with temperature and applies a soft pressure over the chips. In my experience it does not work if the pressure is not applied in the edge of the memories, so the pad must cover its boarders. Cuts must be perfect because if you use one too "high" the others will loose contact between the memories and the shell. It does not work if you put pressure directly in the motherboard, it must be over the memories, the problem is memory joint related. The memories on the 360 I opened up run very cold, they do not warm up (only a little). The GPU and CPU in other hand, get really hot. For that reason I do not think it will be a problem to put rubber foots/pads on it. The clue used is from the stick type, very little, just to keep the pads attached to the memories when putting the motherboard back in the inner shell (you can use silicone as well).
The newest batch of the 360 console already came with four small thermal pads over those memories. Prove that MS is aware of the problem and trying to solve it. However I found out that they are too softly and over time cannot sustain the motherboard/memories any longer, and the 3RLs came anyway. I already fixed some consoles that originally came with those thermal pads using the rubber pads.
Ok, let's start. You will need to open your Xbox 360 first. I have made a tutorial for that also, but it is still in Portuguese and I do not see a reason to translate it, since there is plenty of tutorials in English in the net. You do not need to remove the heatsinks.
IPB Image
Remove the motherboard from the inner shell and turn it upside down. Around the GPU you will find four memory chips, 2 at the side of the GPU, 2 in front of it. Those are the memories you will have to make pads for support.
IPB Image
You will need for this mod just a normal plastic rubber, a small knive to cut it and some plastic adhesive or glue.
IPB Image
With a small knive cut four little slices from the eraser, with aproximatly 0.4 cm. The best rubber type to use it the one that is kind of plastic (sorry I do not know the exactly term for it in English) not pure rubber, which is too soft. It has to be firm. After cutting the slices, make them of the same size of the memory chips (a little bit larger). Make two of the pads a little higher than the other twos (like 0.4 for the memories at the side of the GPU and 0.3/0.35 for the memories in front of it).
IPB Image
The cutted pads:
IPB Image
Use very little gum (dry one, the one that comes in sticks) only to place the pads over the memories when you place the motherboard back in the inner shell. Only a little. You can use other types of adhesives.
IPB Image
Put back the motherboad in the shell, taking care that the pads do not fall down or be displaced. You will notice that the motherboard may be a little 'higher" than usual  inside the shell, by looking at the sync botton in the front of the shell, that may be a little (again, very little) displaced from the hole in the shell.
IPB Image
Now plug the front daughterboard back in place, but do not fix its screws yet. Turn the inner shell upside down, keeping the motherboard fixed in place. Start to screw back the CPU and GPU screws (do not press them too much). Put back the small silver screws that fixes the motherboard to the shell, but distribute the pression by screwing first 2 of the 3 in front of the motherboard, the 2 in the back, later the 2 on each side and finally the remaining one in the front of the motherboard. Now the motherboard must be perfectly alligned inside the shell and the pressure must be over the memories.
Turn upside up again the shell, screw the daughterboard, plug the fans in the motherboard and put back the plastic fan shroud. Plug back the SATA DVD drive. Now we can start the first test.
Turn on the Xbox 360. On most cases the problem (3RLs or freezing) is still there. You should keep the console on for a few minutes the first time after the mod, even if it display errors (just this first try) because I have seem cases (mostly of them) that it does not work immediatly. The warming up of the motherboard is important in this first step. It could be because it bends the motherboard to the right position and the pads them keep it in that position, but I believe it is because somehow it pushes the memories joints to the right position. It is not like melting the joint, but the heat provided by the motherboard together to the pressure applied to the weak joints somehow works. I repeat: the pressure must be exactly over the edges of the memories, specially the ones at the side of the GPU.

After 5 or 10 minutes the process is over. You can turn off the console. Now the 3RLs and freezing are gone and the console should start immediatly everytime. I do recommend to you to keep the console open for a few tries, because you may have to adjust the position and high of the pads. A displaced or too high pad will lead to the back of the 3RLs. After you feel confortable with the modification, you can finished to close the console.

Ok, it sounds funny but it works. More than 40 consoles have been fixes in a few hours around here. I do no claim to fully understand why it works (flexing of the motherboard or weaken memories joints), but it really works. You can easly test it and if it works, start spreeding the news. The only thing I request is that the credit of this mod is given to the right person.

Chiaroscuro (aka Marcelo in real live)
Xbox Live Gamertag: MrChiaroscuro
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brywalker

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« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2007, 08:32:00 AM »

Well after seeing those pics, that settles it.

It is just flexing the board back into position.

I'm confident that this will do damage to the memory in the long run, but it is just solving the core issue - motherboard flex from the X clamps.
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mattygabe

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2007, 08:03:00 AM »

QUOTE(Xandegui77 @ Mar 16 2007, 12:33 AM) View Post

I really want that someone from xboxscene, a respectable one, make this mod on a bricked 360 to give the credibility that everyone in this forum wants. Come on guys, it is silly but is functioning! Come on guys, this mod is inexpensive, very easy and fast to do and is reversible too.

Mine is functioning for 13 hours straight. I turned on and off a few times just to see if it's stable.

The reason why a lot of us over here aren't about to do it is because we are afraid that it will permanently damage our boards.  Opposed to Marcelo (Mr.Chiaroscuro), who believes the memory doesn't get hot (I'll get to that in a moment), it is our belief that they're the warmest components.

Let me know if yours is still functioning in a week/month/few months.  I hope you are all right, honestly, because this may lead to permanently bricked Xboxes if our fears re: the memory heat are confirmed.

QUOTE(Mr.Chiaroscuro @ Mar 16 2007, 09:10 AM) View Post

The memories on the 360 I opened up run very cold, they do not warm up (only a little). The GPU and CPU in other hand, get really hot. For that reason I do not think it will be a problem to put rubber foots/pads on it. The clue used is from the stick type, very little, just to keep the pads attached to the memories when putting the motherboard back in the inner shell (you can use silicone as well).

The newest batch of the 360 console already came with four small thermal pads over those memories. Prove that MS is aware of the problem and trying to solve it.

I appreciate your in-depth picture-related tutorial.  If this does work, it'll help quite a lot of people.  First, though, a few points I need you to directly answer...

RBJTech used an infrared temperature sensor (not his finger, as you did) to test the temperatures of the components.  He tested the thermal limits of the processor (which ended up at about 70deg. C), and that sounded right on in comparison with normal PC processors, so I feel there's value in his numbers (let alone his reputation here at XS).  He stated that the memories are in fact the warmest part of the 360, but because they do not have heatsinks their heat dissipates quickly.  When you make that assumption that the memories are not the warmest component in the box, it scares me that you then begin to make other assumptions based on that when a lot of people on here are saying otherwise (read in full: 3RL: Design Flaw).

Also, from that topic, i read this:
QUOTE(dokworm @ Feb 23, 2007)
We seem to be seeing consoles where the motherboard has flexed and a few of the solder balls or pads have given way at the corner of the CPU or GPU as pointed out by SMTRework and others.

There is no assumption that it MIGHT be the GPU/CPU, more that they took an actual look at it, and it WAS the CPU/GPU.  Not that it is in EVERY console, but it really seems to me that you're just building assumptions on top of one another. I need more proof, and so for someone respectable on XS to do this and have evidence that I feel comfortable with would be indeed what I would need.

In re: to your statement, "The newest batch of the 360 console already came with four small thermal pads over those memories. Prove that MS is aware of the problem and trying to solve it. ", I thought those thermal pads were thermal conductors, not thermal insulators.  I thought the idea was that, once again, since the memories are the warmest component, we want to remove heat from them, not keep it on them.

I'm sorry guys, don't take it personally, but I am still REALLY skeptical towards this method.  I know you're not trying to trick anyone, only trying to spread the good news that you found, but I have yet to fully take stock in it.  I'll keep a keen eye on this topic, I haven't given up on it.
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MiahX007

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« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2007, 08:50:00 AM »

QUOTE(mattygabe @ Mar 16 2007, 02:10 PM) View Post

In re: to your statement, "The newest batch of the 360 console already came with four small thermal pads over those memories. Prove that MS is aware of the problem and trying to solve it. ", I thought those thermal pads were thermal conductors, not thermal insulators.  I thought the idea was that, once again, since the memories are the warmest component, we want to remove heat from them, not keep it on them.


The fact the M$ added pads could also be to help keep the flexing of the board down. So the pad idea is a valid one, but we need to use thermally conductive pads instead of insulating erasers.

So the idea sounds great, where do we get some thermal conductive pads like M$ is using?
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Xandegui77

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #101 on: March 16, 2007, 10:49:00 AM »

QUOTE(MiahX007 @ Mar 16 2007, 11:57 AM) *

The fact the M$ added pads could also be to help keep the flexing of the board down. So the pad idea is a valid one, but we need to use thermally conductive pads instead of insulating erasers.

So the idea sounds great, where do we get some thermal conductive pads like M$ is using?


Forget that thermal pads from M$. They are VERY soft, soft as a bubble gum already used. A user posted a link to a better thermal pad but WHERE to find it.

40 bricked consoles fixed with this rubber fix. Until now, none stopped working. Let's see on the long term but Chiaroscuro who is the autor of this fix have 2 consoles fixed with rubber and they are working for four months now.
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DaniloMQ

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #102 on: March 16, 2007, 10:55:00 AM »

iF the theory is just to FLEX the board, why just using the rubber into the board but NOT into the memory?

this will have the same effect and not harm the memory
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Mr.Chiaroscuro

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The End Of The 3 Red Lights!
« Reply #103 on: March 16, 2007, 11:28:00 AM »

To Mattgabe: I already stated that I did not have a lab or probes in hand to better test the solution, I believe RBJTech concers are pretty much valid. That is why I wanted to post it here, after some results in Brazil: to get a better insight from people with the right equipment in hand.

I also do have the same concern about the rubber pad being a insulated material, I would like to find another material (thermal conductive) with the same characterists from the rubber to test it.

What I have already done:
- softier materials do not work. The same thermal pads as MS uses are really to soft for the job. Even softier rubbers, not the plastic one, also do not work for a long time (they dry and getter smaller in size, loosing the pressure).
- Smaller pads do not work. The pressure must be also at the edges of the memory. Smaller pads may work for a while, but the 3RLs will come back.
- Pads directly to the motherboard also do not work. The pressure must be over the memories, specially the 2 located at the side of the GPU. It is somehow related to the memories joints.

What I will like to do:
- find a thermal condutive material as I stated above, and do the mod. If it still works, the problem is solved by the pressure itself (which I believe so). If it does not work, the problem may be being solved by the exact fact that the rubber is a insulated material, and the heat generated from memories may be dissipating from some other place, like from the side or bellow the memory, affecting the joints.


A last note: I have a console working for almost 4 months using this modification (since December). No side-effect was noticed. I did have to align the pads once in beginning of January (they felt of the correct place) nothing wrong was noticed at the time. I just opened the same console again, and everything looks fine. Will the rubber pads affect the memories somehow in the long term? I do not know. Months seems to not be a problem. Of course heat reduces the lifetime of any eletronic equipment, but how much in this case? If it is a few months less working in years it will not be a great deal. At least not for me, I had a bricked system and know I can enjoy it further. If I have to buy a new console in the following years it will be fine.

ANY HELP from this forum members will be appreciated. We can further improve this mod. What I do request in return is the acknowledgement of the original idea (I think it is fair enough).
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DaniloMQ

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« Reply #104 on: March 16, 2007, 10:54:00 AM »

QUOTE(Mr.Chiaroscuro @ Mar 16 2007, 05:59 PM) View Post


- Pads directly to the motherboard also do not work. The pressure must be over the memories, specially the 2 located at the side of the GPU. It is somehow related to the memories joints.
reat deal. At least not for me, I had a bricked system and know I can enjoy it further. If I have to buy a new console in the following years it will be fine.



Pacote here...

i can confirm this, just tried some combinations in rubber directly into the motherboard to flex it and didnt work... the problem its not the X flexing the board, its really the memory
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