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[brywalker]

QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 13 2007, 01:10 PM)

If you use the correct thread bolts then there is no need for a nut on the top, you can screw straight into the existing thread.

Your suggestion works just fine, but you need to be really careful not to over torque the bolts. One way is to use a spring washer, screw it down till the washer flattens out and then back it off until the washer starts to expand again, that way you know it isn't insanely tight.
Alternatively you could use those rubber/neoprene whatever washers people use to isolate vibration on their hard drives I guess.

Either way it pays to do the simple trick of running without the fans first to at least have a chance of the solder joints becoming a little better and then clamp it, or clamp it and run without the fans.

Ideally you want to put something on the corner of the chips, like a compressible heatpad that will transfer the heatsink downwards pressure to the perimeter of the CPU and GPU instead of it being just on the centre of the chips. It is the corners that tend to lift, not the centre.

I had a Lost Planet marathon last night (about 10hrs straight with occasional pee breaks) on the console that we only did the bolts from the bottom of the board up into the heatsink and didn't get a single issue.

Other interesting aside, the ones we have bolted down don't seem to make as much fan noise as the one unopened 360 that we were linked to. I wonder if the better thermal paste and better clamping means they don't get quite as hot?

Excellent.

Well I have tracked my problem down to GPU heat. I don't have any artifacting when it locks, just a frozen screen. I can still turn the power off. This at 1080i. If I switch to TV mode, no crashes whatsoever. So it looks like the extra heat generated when running high res is what is causing the crash.

Now I need to drill out this stupid screw. How important is that back plate? Does it actually make contact with the RAM on the back to cool it? Also, has anyone tried cutting the GPU sink in order to expose the RAM on the side of it so they can use ramsinks instead?

Any other insight would be great on this. I am going to be down 1 screw for sure on the back plate due to me having to drill this one out.

[steddyman]

I found the same, running at 480p rather than 720p stops the hangs.  It does look like the GPU is overheating.

I have cut my GPU heatsink and installed Zalman VGA ram coolers, but it still hangs.

I also have Talismoon fans and an XCM internal fan and an AS5 thermal upgrade.  It did improve things to the poiint I could play a few hours, but it has started hangning more often again now.

That's why I am looking for a permanent fix.

Steddyman

[brywalker]

QUOTE(steddyman @ Mar 13 2007, 04:35 PM)

I found the same, running at 480p rather than 720p stops the hangs.  It does look like the GPU is overheating.

I have cut my GPU heatsink and installed Zalman VGA ram coolers, but it still hangs.

I also have Talismoon fans and an XCM internal fan and an AS5 thermal upgrade.  It did improve things to the poiint I could play a few hours, but it has started hangning more often again now.

That's why I am looking for a permanent fix.

Steddyman

I think you are on the right track. If you replace the X clip and run it without fans for a while (IE: blanket method) or do the heat gun you should be all set. The board won't flex anymore and it shouldn't happen again (in theory).

It looks like why the heat gun only lasts a while is because you reflow, but you still have the same defect - flexing the board. So after a while it just pops again and you are back to square 1.

If this wasn't a case for ZIFF sockets, I don't know what is.

[Kurto2021]

QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 11 2007, 12:42 AM)

Next 360 I fix I'll take some pictures, I will need to borrow a camera.

Steddyman, by pegs I mean like on a PC motherboard. You have brass pegs (or plastic spacers) between the PC case and the motherboard. i.e. the things you screw the motherboard onto, that keep it up off the case.

To give more detail, basically I find the faulty balls, reflow so that they are not faulty any more. Then apply new thermal paste and spacer dots to the corners of the two chips (to apply some pressure from the heatsink onto the corners of the chips. I got the idea from old athlon chips where they used to do this)

Then drill holes in the baseplate and put motherboard support pegs into the base metal plate of the case I sue plastic ones cut to size. I put rubber 'cone' supports under the centre of the GPU and CPU (between the metal baseplate and the bottom of the mobo)

I then screw down the heatsinks and use spring washers so that I can tighten and then ease off a bit so as not to overtighten. I fit talismoon fans at the back to help keep the heat under control and in some cases fit a fan to the CPU cooling tower. (I tried the XCM fan but it is insanely loud).

I would love one of the aftermarket companies to release a kit to do something like this so you could do it to your 360 *before* it fails.

I'm not claiming this is the perfect solution, just that it has worked so far on 360s where the towel fix or toothpick fix or airgun fix only gave a really short term fix.

Things I haven't done but think I should are fit bigger feet to the 360 to get ventilation in from underneath, and put some ventilation in the top.
But I'd like a clear case so I could follow the airflow with a fogger to make sure the mods were actually moving the air where it should go and not amking the situation worse.

while your "detailed" explanation isn't awful it leaves some stuff out.  Are you screwing from the top down?  Did you have to pull the metal pegs out of the existing heatsink?  What size drill bit did you use...what are you using to thread the holes.  Where did you buy the pads that are similar to the ones that come on the athlons?

QUOTE

I sue plastic ones cut to size. I put rubber 'cone' supports under the centre of the GPU and CPU (between the metal baseplate and the bottom of the mobo)

I have no idea what this means

I'd like to see some pics.

[dokworm]

QUOTE(Kurto2021 @ Mar 14 2007, 02:43 AM)

while your "detailed" explanation isn't awful it leaves some stuff out.  Are you screwing from the top down?  Did you have to pull the metal pegs out of the existing heatsink?  What size drill bit did you use...what are you using to thread the holes.  Where did you buy the pads that are similar to the ones that come on the athlons?
I have no idea what this means

I'd like to see some pics.

The metal pegs from the existing heatsink just unscrew, and yes I take them out completely.

To thread the holes in the chassis I am using a standard tap and die set, the usual tool for cutting a thread into metal.

I'm using door bumpers from the hardware store since I ran out of old athlon pads, I file them down to size. You could use cork dots, or anything that is compressible really.

If putting pegs under the four mount points of the heatsink then I screw in from the top.

If not putting pegs I use dome headed bolts from underneath and washers so the the height of the bolts head rests on the chassis which helps support the board. It all depends on what parts I have available at the time.

All the last statement means is I used a cone shaped piece of rubber between the chassis and the mobo to support the mobo under the middle of the CPU and GPU. They are stick on rubber cones that came with my PC motherboard and are used in the same way a plastic standoff would be.
i.e. it is just a piece of rubber for that part of the mobo to rest on to help keep it all flat.

Next dead 360 I get I'll take some pics, if anyone in Australia has one for me to fix I'll take pics of it, otherwise I'll just wait for another dead one to turn up amongst my friends or at the next LAN.

[brywalker]

QUOTE(dokworm @ Mar 14 2007, 03:04 AM)

The metal pegs from the existing heatsink just unscrew, and yes I take them out completely.

To thread the holes in the chassis I am using a standard tap and die set, the usual tool for cutting a thread into metal.

I'm using door bumpers from the hardware store since I ran out of old athlon pads, I file them down to size. You could use cork dots, or anything that is compressible really.

If putting pegs under the four mount points of the heatsink then I screw in from the top.

If not putting pegs I use dome headed bolts from underneath and washers so the the height of the bolts head rests on the chassis which helps support the board. It all depends on what parts I have available at the time.

All the last statement means is I used a cone shaped piece of rubber between the chassis and the mobo to support the mobo under the middle of the CPU and GPU. They are stick on rubber cones that came with my PC motherboard and are used in the same way a plastic standoff would be.
i.e. it is just a piece of rubber for that part of the mobo to rest on to help keep it all flat.

Next dead 360 I get I'll take some pics, if anyone in Australia has one for me to fix I'll take pics of it, otherwise I'll just wait for another dead one to turn up amongst my friends or at the next LAN.

Do you do this to just the GPU or the CPU also? It seems that most of the problems are occuring with the GPU.

[dokworm]

I absolutely do both.

To the previous question about cutting the GPU heatsink down, if you do that you will no longer have air dragging over the heatsink, it will just sneak in the side, so I don't think it is a good idea unless you redesign the airflow with a plenum.

[steddyman]

Thanks dokworm

I think I understand everything you have done now.  I will look towards giving this a try at the weekend and see if it fixes my problem.

Interestingly, if the problem is the pressure of the heatsink is focused on the center rather than the corners, then I bet the location of the 10mb DRM on the GPU is a bit of a problem.  It is off to one side so may not be getting a perfect thermal connection with the heatsink.

The other post about using rubbers under the memory chips is interesting, but I think you are right in the fact this helps prevent the flexing problem.  I already have passive coolers on my memory so I know its not heat causing the problem.

[RBJTech]

Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting the GPU heatsink (maybe a bit late ..) - it's insufficient as it is - much better to just thermally attach the RAM to the GPU heatsink as follows -

RAM/GPU Heatsink ...

[brywalker]

QUOTE(RBJTech @ Mar 14 2007, 04:02 PM)

Guys - I seriously don't recommend cutting the GPU heatsink (maybe a bit late ..) - it's insufficient as it is - much better to just thermally attach the RAM to the GPU heatsink as follows -

RAM/GPU Heatsink ...

I totally agree here.

The ONLY way to have a smaller heatsink is to:

a) Make a custom copper one. Having a better conductive material will allow you to have a smaller area.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Rework the shroud to have no gaps.

You have to do both. On the other hand, if you are going to do that you might as well make the copper block the same size as the stock one and add thermal pads to the RAM. This way, you are taking even MORE heat out of there.

I don't have any of my tools here. Does anyone have the dimensions of the GPU cooler?

QUOTE(swdxr12 @ Mar 10 2007, 06:30 PM)

Hi, I have tried a similar method to yours (using screws and nuts to secure the heatsink and motherboard to the case) and have fixed the 3 red lights but occasionally I still get freezing problems. It seems that you are having a good success rate and I am interested in applying your technique to see if I can fix the screen freezes. Please can you post pictures so that I can copy EXACTLY what you have done.

Did you actually remove the X clips? You may also have to add thermal pads to the RAM next to the GPU die, heatsinks to the exposed RAM on the top and thermal pads to the bottom of the board on the RAM there if it didn't come stock.

This post has been edited by brywalker: Mar 14 2007, 04:24 PM

[dokworm]

Yeah I think using thermal pads to get the memory onto the same heatsink is a good idea.

Did a phone around last night, still haven't had a single lockup or problem with any of the 360s yet (at least with the guys who were home and answered the phone) whereas all the fixes we did before proved much more temporary.

The other thing is you really need to lap the heatsink, especially the CPU one, or use a relatively thick application of thermal paste. The finish on the CPU heatsink is really rough on the units I have seen.

[mattygabe]

So when replacing the X clips altogether, what type of hardware did you guys generally use?  Like, for the spacers specifically, how tall were they, what were they made of, and did they need to be threaded?  How about the bolt/screw that was sent down from the top of the motherboard/heatsinks and into the casing - is the threading in the case itself already?  How long of a bolt/screw did you have to use?  Besides these spacers and bolts/screws, was there anything else you had to use to get the job done?

[brywalker]

QUOTE(mattygabe @ Mar 15 2007, 02:31 AM)

So when replacing the X clips altogether, what type of hardware did you guys generally use?  Like, for the spacers specifically, how tall were they, what were they made of, and did they need to be threaded?  How about the bolt/screw that was sent down from the top of the motherboard/heatsinks and into the casing - is the threading in the case itself already?  How long of a bolt/screw did you have to use?  Besides these spacers and bolts/screws, was there anything else you had to use to get the job done?

Right now I am working on mine. M5 screws will fit the threads directly into the heatsink. I have nylon washers that are the same height as the "nut" on the original standoff - so the heatsink won't be torqued down too far. Make sure you use a nylon washer on both sides of the board.

I am going to use thermal pads on the rear memory for heat transfer and to keep reduce the board from drooping in that area. Thermal pad on the top memory under the GPU heatsink and ramsinks on the exposed ones on the top. For additional heat management I am adding the Talismoon fans and doing the shroud work like RBJTech.

Remember, I never got the red lights. Just lockups. Only in High Def, if set to standard TV all was well. 11/05 was the build date.

[davbere]

Good posts guys.

Months ago I tried fixing about 10 360's with most working 2-3 weeks and then dieing again.

My theory on several of the design choices made on the 360 are as follows.
 
The pressure on the gpu die is  not balanced. There are two heads on it (as you know).
The effect of the heatsink against it is a teeter totter of unequal pressure being applied
which with time contributes to the failure of the bga connections.
 One thing I have felt is a  heatcap (such as the ones sony uses) would help distribute the pressure of the heatsing to heatsource whilst allowing for a quicker dissapation and tranfer of heat.


Another factor while slight is the vibrations of the spinning drive.
Not a major factor but I put thin felt pads under the drive legs, to help deaden this effect, before screwing it together.

I like the idea of the pads brought up here and may try this at some point.

Cheers

EDIT:

I know Ms wanted to make the 360 nice and pretty but imho a couple more inches of thickness could allow for a better heatsink under the drive on the GPU. I'd like to see a casemod done to allow for a proper heatsing. hmmmm maybe a kit ?

This post has been edited by davbere: Mar 15 2007, 12:26 PM

[mattygabe]

QUOTE(brywalker @ Mar 14 2007, 10:43 PM)

Right now I am working on mine. M5 screws will fit the threads directly into the heatsink. I have nylon washers that are the same height as the "nut" on the original standoff - so the heatsink won't be torqued down too far. Make sure you use a nylon washer on both sides of the board.

I am going to use thermal pads on the rear memory for heat transfer and to keep reduce the board from drooping in that area. Thermal pad on the top memory under the GPU heatsink and ramsinks on the exposed ones on the top. For additional heat management I am adding the Talismoon fans and doing the shroud work like RBJTech.

Remember, I never got the red lights. Just lockups. Only in High Def, if set to standard TV all was well. 11/05 was the build date.

I feel my 360 is going to soon bite the dust again, right now it's working thanks to the heat gun trick again.  When it does go again, I'm going to reflow it and then properly fasten the motherboard around the CPU and GPU, and also add some pads to the chips underneath the heatsinks.  I'll try to take pictures and document my progress, letting you all know how this turns out and maybe help everyone come to better conclusions.

QUOTE(davbere @ Mar 15 2007, 07:23 AM)

EDIT:

I know Ms wanted to make the 360 nice and pretty but imho a couple more inches of thickness could allow for a better heatsink under the drive on the GPU. I'd like to see a casemod done to allow for a proper heatsing. hmmmm maybe a kit ?

Yeah I really think Microsoft went about it a bad way in responding to the first Xbox's criticisms.  One was that the box was too bulky and ugly looking, and the other was that it was too loud and got very warm.  Well, they must've thought that since the first console didn't have any heating issues, they could easily address the other two - the ugly appearance and the loud fans.  However, they seemed to have either run out of resources to address this last issue, or completely ignored it.  We may never know which.  We do, however, know that they did something wrong because a fairly significant minority of 360 owners are experiencing the same things, which should tell you something.