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Author Topic: GPU Reballing  (Read 524 times)

nagamin

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #120 on: July 26, 2009, 05:00:00 PM »

For me that was too much.
Max 210 C and duration was 320 Sec.
Temp ramp should 1 C per Sec and highest on 230 Sec and end on 320 Sec.
Keep on 210 C about 20 Sec.

For GPU, bring up Max to 250 C. Take Little bit longer duration.
Use pre-heater.

Taht was I got from good source.
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Nicpoe

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #121 on: July 26, 2009, 11:34:00 PM »

QUOTE(nagamin @ Jul 26 2009, 06:26 PM) View Post

Is that, last one was IR or hot air?
Did you using nozzel? Can you tell me solder ball you using is 63/37 or what?
What is your heat profile?


The last machine is an Martin 04.6 Expert and it has both, ir bottom heater an hot air top heater. I use Sn63Pb37, 0.6mm Solder Balls. The nozzle for the gpu is 35x35mm. A profile can be found in this article: http://www.martin-sm..._manncorpr.pdf

Did the threat starter solder back his reballed gpu successfully? I have nothin read in this way.
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nagamin

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2009, 05:47:00 AM »

Thanks for info update.
Why don't you use lead free. In my knowledge lead free is more heat resistance. Mealting arround 200 C.
So, even you are using manuf: profile, you can't solder back to PCB. Is that what you mean?
Are you using 250 C or 300 C to solder. Reflow will be fine with 250 and redolder or desolder should 300 C.
Try to adjust per-heat temp.  Should be work perfact. Try to cantact to manufacturer for best result. huh.gif
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nagamin

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #123 on: July 27, 2009, 12:40:00 PM »

I was realy confuse about Leaded and Lead Free.

Most of papers say -

While conventional 60Sn/40Pb or 63Sn/37Pb solders have a melting point of around 183°C, lead-free solders, which are usually 96-97% tin with the balance composed of various combinations of silver and other materials, have a melting point of 217°C.

That mean lead free solder melting point was higher than Leaded solder.

We should try slow tempreture ramp and longer processing time.
Like you said 120 sec was temp ramping rate was 3 degree per Sec. I don't think it will be perfact profile.
Any suggestion?
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IBeHoey

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2009, 08:13:00 PM »

Wow, I'm glad to see that this topic is still active, and I'm even more glad to see that I'm not the only fool out there who is attempting to successfully reball and reattach the 360s BGA chips on their own.

Currently, I've made about the same progress as nagamin has. I'm able to consistently remove all of the BGA chips (GPU, CPU, South Bridge, and RAM) with out damaging any of the pads on both the chips and mobo. So far, the GPU is the only chip Ive tried reballing, and I'm at the point now where I'm getting 3 successful reballs for every 4 attempts. I haven't tried the reattachment process yet but I can already tell that its going to be the trickiest part. So I'm holding off until I can figure out a reliable technique for realigning the chip properly on the motherboard and a way to hold it in place while its being heated.

Now to answer the questions I'm sure everyone is going to ask.

The hot air rework station I'm using is a Saike 852D+. Its a cheap clone but works really well.

For a hot plate I'm using a modified griddle with stand offs to securely mount and hold the motherboard in place. It has a max temperature setting of 420F (215C).

I'm using the stencil technique to reball, and the reball station is the KingFull model I ordered off the internet. The kit came with 4 stencils for doing the 360s CPU, GPU, Southbridge, and RAM, along with 2 sizes of solder balls and tacky flux. The balls used on the GPU, CPU, and Southbridge are lead based Sn63Pb37 and are 0.6mm in size. The other balls it shipped with are of the same alloy but are 0.45mm in size and are for the RAM chips. The tacky flux is Amtech RMA-223-TF.

The kit didn't include any kind of directions or literature but its design is pretty much similar to the other DIY BGA stations out there. A solid chunk of aluminum that clamps the four corners of the chip to hold it in place, then the stencil is installed into an aluminum frame that fits nicely over the chip. I was only able to find a couple videos out there that showed how to use a kit similar to the one I own but none of those techniques seemed to work well with the one I have, so I was on my own. Through trial and error, I was able to find a process that seemed to produce consistent results. According to the videos and information I gathered, their technique was to apply a thin layer of flux on the chip, set the stencil on top, pour in the balls, then ever so carefully lift the stencil off, leaving the balls perfectly aligned and ready to heat. For a solid week I tried to get this right, but every time I lifted the stencil, some of the balls would lift with it, and when I would try using less flux, the balls then wouldn't stay in place. I was beginning to get pretty sick of this damn thing when I decided, what the hell, lets see what happens when I try heating the balls with the stencil still in place. Foolishly, I put the hot air right on it and the stencil warped drastically, letting all of the little balls roll under nether it. Well that wasn't going to work, so back to the drawing board.

I would spend the next few days retrying the stencil lift technique again and right when i was about to crack, my dad suggested that I should try heating the balls with the stencil still in place again, but this time I should preheat the station first. So I clamped in the GPU and placed the aluminum block along with the framed stencil, side-by-side, on the hot plate and set it for "Serve" which was about 200F (93C). After about 15min, I took a temperature reading of the GPU with a IR thermometer and it read 140F (60C). I then applied a thin layer of flux onto the chip, insuring all of the pads were covered, then placed the stencil on top. After checking to make sure the stencil aligned perfectly with the GPU, I turned the hot plate up to 325F (162C). I then proceeded to pour in the little solder balls and brush them into place. Once everything looked good, I turned the hot plate up to 375F (190C) and let it sit for about 15min. BY now I figured that the GPU and solder balls should be very close to their melting threshold so I fired up the hot air, set its temp for 220C and air flow to 2.5 (the airflow scale on my rework station goes up to 7). This time around the stencil didn't warp at all. As I applied air to the stencil I used the little scrapper thing that came with the reball kit to lightly push down on the corners of the stencil where some of the balls were sticking to the side of the stencils holes. It was a cool effect watching the balls almost jump into place on their own, centering themselves perfectly on the pads of the GPU. Once all of the balls looked to be in place, I turned off the air along with the hot plate and went to go finish watching the rest of the FLCL series that I had started earlier. When I came back, everything was cooled off, so I lifted the stencil off of the GPU, praying that none of the balls would lift with it, and viola! I had a perfectly reballed GPU.

Below are a few pictures of my results. Unfortunately, my digital camera kicked the bucket before I could take more pictures of the GPU and of the process. The GPU shown reballed was my guinea pig through this whole trial and error process and that's way some of the solder mask(?) is missing in the corners. This picture is also of the first presentable result I had with the reball process, and is by no means perfect. Like I mentioned above my camera has died so therefore I cant show you all the more recent results I've been getting with a freshly removed GPU.

IPB Image

IPB Image

IPB Image

And here is a blurred picture of the BGA station I'm using taken with my cell phone.
IPB Image


I also ask that anyone with experience regarding temperature profiles of the GPU, or any of the 360s BGA chips, to please heavily scrutinize my procedure. I've been on my own through most of the process and the temperature settings I used were those that I found to work during my endeavor.

Oh yeah, I apologize for the super long post.  I, as well, enjoy writing way to much. -=D
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Atlasprime

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2009, 12:51:00 PM »

I been removing the GPU at like 400C lol.  So its been established 320 seconds at 250 ish should be good to lift the GPU?  I invested in some preforms for the GPU. I guess what I do it clean the chip, flux it, then apply the preform by hand. Then reflow. Then i clean the mobo, flux and reflow the newly balled GPU.

Ive been reading that most reflow profiles go up to 350ish C for 15 seconds... Is this just insane?
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Atlasprime

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2009, 02:49:00 PM »

Ok just did the following to attempt to remove the GPU.

Preheated table to 350F and let it chill for about a minute. Turned on my hotair device with nozzle 3939 and let it chill for about a minute on lowest setting, fan speed on medium(5). I then slowly ramped the temp to 250C over the course of 4 and a half minutes. I then let it stay on at 250C for 100 seconds more. Removed nozzle and immediately tried to extract but the chip is on way too tight. Am I doing something wrong here?
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dmkf

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2010, 03:42:00 PM »

Okay guys, just my two cents. Reballing with a proper equipment is a pleasure job. Check this out:
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dpmc21

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« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2010, 09:07:00 AM »

Hey guys just thought I'd add a post as I do plenty of 360 repairs up in Newcastle...I have been doing reflows on the 360 for over a year now with almost a 100% success rate with my current process, over 60 done using this technique and only 1 back, which was re-done and never seen again.

I originally started just messing around with ways to repair the RROD after mine got it, however I am not new to this, I was chipping and repairing the original Playstations and was one off the 1st people in the UK to import the accessories for them from china including the Game Shark if any off you remember them wink.gif....I have been repairing electronics since I was 15 and have owned a mobile phone repair shop where I did plenty of mainboard repairs for mobile phones. I didnt really have to much experience with large scale BGA chips etc, although I have done plenty of repairs on Laptop mainboards such as charging ports etc the GPU on the 360 which is the main culprit for errors was a new venture. Let me state that in my experience without the proper equipment then reballing the GPU is going to not only be very hard to do but it is more than likely that damage will be done when removing the chip (I know some off you have managed it and well done cos it is an unenviable task), if you manage to get that far then refitting it is another headache in itself. Even successfully done this is not fixing the main root of the problem, which is poor design by microsoft, the chassis mounting points, cooling and X-clamps leave a lot to be desired, and that is being generous to them!!

My fix which I cannot take all the credit for as the kit I use to replace the X-Clamps was developed by others (fantastic work by team hybrid)....using their kit addresses the issues of poor chassis design and replaces the X-clamps. I also add some thermal conductive heat pads to the ram chips, the other work I do is to reflow the GPU chip. I do this using a proper reflow station and a pre-heater. The key I have found to this is good pre-heating and patience. I wont go into detail on times and temps etc but I have noticed that a lot of people simply blast the chips with a heat gun at say 300C for a few mins..this will work temporarily but it isn't fixing or reflowing and that is why they are coming back. I have been using my method for over 6 months now and the results speak for themselves. I offer this repair service along with all other console repairs from my shop in Newcastle upon Tyne and I pride myself on good customer service, with hundreds of happy customers I pleased with my results so far.....hope its been off help to someone anyway, I will try n get some pics up of my repairs and my equipment soon!
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relaxxx

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #129 on: February 17, 2010, 05:18:00 PM »

So you revive a REBALLING thread to plug an X-Clamp replacement scheme?

Not cool.

Anyway I've been seriously considering getting a GPU stencil and leaded balls, looks like I can get what I need for about $20 from china. The auctions don't say if the stencils are for .5 or .6mm balls so I don't know whats best. I'm leaning towards .5 just to ensure they fit in the stencil?

I can successfully desolder a GPU so I think I could reball one. Another thing holding me back is I'd hate to ruin a board I know I can probably revive by just reflowing.

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dpmc21

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« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2010, 08:03:00 AM »

Actually relax I wasn't trying to plug or move off topic at all...the X-clamp fix is totally relevant to the reball repair, as I stated there is a combination of design flaws that lead to the RROD, by simply fixing 1 of them for example reballing you are only doing a temporary fix, albeit an extremely good one in the case of a reball, however the stresses and flexing on the board are still there and so inevitably it will re-occur at some stage altough it will undoubtedly last alot longer having been reballed. I was simply stating that if you are going to all the trouble of doing a full reball on the GPU then it would make sense to address the other issues, and I stated my repair process that has given me fantastic results as an example. I believe reballing is only nesecary in extreme cases, although am sure some people will disagree.
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relaxxx

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« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2010, 09:42:00 AM »

X-clamp replacements have zero relevance in a long term replacement because there is nothing wrong with X-clamps themselves. 360's fail from heat stress in brittle lead free BGA balls. The primary cause is insufficient cooling. The idea that X-clamps flex and cause this is a total myth. There are consoles that fail because of bad contact with heatsinks from x-clamps not having enough room between the case and board which pushes the heatsink away from the chip. This is still not a direct X-clamp issue. The hybrid "fix" admits to imperfections in the metal case and then relies in the very same case for its base of "level" pressure. It is nonsense, ALL x-clamp replacement schemes are based on unsubstantiated myths and misunderstood architectural nonsense!  

Anyone who knows anything about motherboard architecture knows you can not and should not prevent heat expansion and flex with brute force M5 bolt pressure! This will eventually destroy the processors internal substrate contacts. It is an insult to anyone who knows better to come to this site and see the first sticky "fix" to be an x-clamp replacement scheme.

This post has been edited by relaxxx: Feb 18 2010, 05:43 PM
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nafeasonto

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GPU Reballing
« Reply #132 on: August 10, 2010, 09:16:00 AM »

QUOTE(relaxxx @ Feb 18 2010, 12:42 PM) *

X-clamp replacements have zero relevance in a long term replacement because there is nothing wrong with X-clamps themselves. 360's fail from heat stress in brittle lead free BGA balls. The primary cause is insufficient cooling. The idea that X-clamps flex and cause this is a total myth. There are consoles that fail because of bad contact with heatsinks from x-clamps not having enough room between the case and board which pushes the heatsink away from the chip. This is still not a direct X-clamp issue. The hybrid "fix" admits to imperfections in the metal case and then relies in the very same case for its base of "level" pressure. It is nonsense, ALL x-clamp replacement schemes are based on unsubstantiated myths and misunderstood architectural nonsense!  

Anyone who knows anything about motherboard architecture knows you can not and should not prevent heat expansion and flex with brute force M5 bolt pressure! This will eventually destroy the processors internal substrate contacts. It is an insult to anyone who knows better to come to this site and see the first sticky "fix" to be an x-clamp replacement scheme.


So this is why my X Clamped/reflowed fixed Xbox 360 has been working for 8 months now?

As long as those solder joints don't break, your fine.  If I had a PROFESSIONAL reflow machine, I would reball the GPU and CPU with Lead/TIn solder.

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superfireball123

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« Reply #133 on: August 10, 2010, 09:19:00 AM »

People have different luck my X-clamp fixed console only lasted 2 months.
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wlintek

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« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2010, 07:21:00 AM »

QUOTE(nafeasonto @ Aug 10 2010, 04:16 PM) View Post

So this is why my X Clamped/reflowed fixed Xbox 360 has been working for 8 months now?

As long as those solder joints don't break, your fine.  If I had a PROFESSIONAL reflow machine, I would reball the GPU and CPU with Lead/TIn solder.


my theory is : the motherboard warps due to heat and cool cycles. during the cycles the x-clamp, when bolted to the case, makes the motherboard flex downwards and eventually the solder balls lost contact to PCB. if you replace the x-clamp with washers and m5 screws but do not tight up too much after reflowing, the xbox will last much longer than those still using x-clamp after reflowing.

anyone has more experiences , please join the discussion.
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