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[skiddd]

Hi Guys,

This is my first post in the forum...

I have an old 360 (Manufactured 2005-09-20) which died June 2006. I am from Asia and
it is not easy for me to get a replacement from M$ and so I just wen't out and bought a new
one. The new one died a week ago and so I started googling 3RL and arrived in this forum.

Anyway, my friend owns a cellphone repair shop and his technicians are experts when it comes
to reballing BGA chips. They were able to repair one of my 360s as of this moment by removing and
reballing both the CPU and the GPU. They also heated the other chips as well but did not remove it.

Here are some pics:

(IMG:http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u278/D18_Builder/_MG_0146.jpg)

(IMG:http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u278/D18_Builder/_MG_0147.jpg)


I admit that the tools they used were not very professional... but the technicians were
already experts in using these "unprofessional" tools.

They used a Bosch Hot Air to remove the CPU and GPU...  The heat was low but constant
and it took around 10 minutes to remove the CPU and around 30 minutes to remove the
GPU. For a moment, I thought that the mobo or the chips were already dead for sure
because of too much heat ;-|  The owner assured me that these guys were experts
when it comes to the heat gun and that the heat was raised slowly but surely.

Two guys were reballing the chips and another guy was removing most of the lead free
solder balls from the mobo. It took each guy roughly 1hour and 30 minutes to
completely reball the chips with new non lead free balls. It took only 3-5 minutes to
finally remount the chips back to the mobo. Then the completed mobo was soaked
inside an ultrasonic cleaner for 3 minutes, then it was slightly heated with a rework
station. After 10 minutes of cooling, they gave me the mobo and I assembled it there
and then. The 360 was fixed and this one was the old one that died june last year.

They were not able to finish fixing my other 360 since one of the technicians complained
about hurting his wrist while reballing the CPU chip. He requested that they will work on
the other box tomorrow because his hands were already shaking. They are not used
to working with big chips will a lot of solder balls... they were cellphone technicians who
were used to working with smaller chips and much much smaller ball size.

Anyway, I would just like to confirm that the reballing works if you leave it to the experts
and hopefully this is no longer just a 2 week solution.

I also upgraded the thermal paste with Arctic Silver 5. I added a fan on the CPU heatsink
following SMTRework's suggestion and placed 4 additional fans on different places inside
the 360 shell.

The revived 360 is currently playing the intro cut scene of one of my games over and
over again. It's been running for around 5 hours now. I want to see what will happen
in 24 hours. Actually, I was hoping that it would die again tomorrow because I don't
want to get my hopes up only to find out 2 weeks later that it will die again. It's actually
very frustrating waiting for it to die ;-( I know I am not alone when I say this! If this
thing dies again, I will finally have the courage to say NO to the XBox 360... It has
brought us more pain than game...

Best Regards,

[Tortuga2112]

keep us posted on the status of that box.

so you watched as they did the re-balling ? think you could get a video of them doing it?

how did they re-align the chip on the MB when re-installing it?


I like the "more pain than game" line . I'm sure a lot of people agree with you.

This post has been edited by Tortuga2112: Mar 1 2007, 08:37 PM

[skiddd]

12 hours and it is still running...

The box is not as hot as it used to be maybe because of the additional fans.
6 additional fans were installed, 2 on the CPU heatsink (1 on each side with both fans
blowing towards the air duct). 4 fans were installed in other various locations were it
could fit. Aluminum tape was also installed on the Air duct to seal the space in between
the duct and the heat sinks. These are not my ideas but ideas of people in the tutorial
sections so I guess there is no point in showing pictures about my cooling setup.

I called the shop told them that I want to take a video of the whole process while they
are fixing my 2nd box, but unfortunately they said that they already installed both
chips on the mobo. I will pick it up later and test it as they do not know how to assemble
it themselves.

If the fix on my second box will be successfull, I will probably increase the stress test
period on my first box to 168 hours (7 days running straight). Any suggestions on how
I can torture this box further for example using a specific game that is known to "kill"
the box because of the load it puts on the GPU and CPU?

I have witnessed how they reballed the chips and they do it manually putting each ball
1 by 1. First off they cleaned the chips using some kind of flux along with a soldering wick
and some lead solder. Then they applied a layer of sticky flux using a paintbrush. Then
they placed the chip under a 4X microscope and put the balls 1 by 1 (took them more than
an hour to finish one chip). Then they heated the balls using a Hakko 850. At this point,
the balls gradually melted but not in a uniform way. Then they applied some kind of
trasparent liquid which I assume is another type of flux dilluted in paint thinner. Then they
heated the balls again and at this point the balls became very uniform just like a brand new
chip. Then they applied a few layers of that sticky flux on the mobo at placed the chip
along the white lines on the mobo. Then they heated the chip in a circular manner using
the Bosch hot air gun for less than 5 minutes. Then they used the Hakko again to further
heat the chip on it's corners and they used a tweezer to tap the chip very lightly and observed
if the chip was sitting properly on the mobo. They tapped each of the 4 corners a few times.
Then they allowed it to cool and they inspected the four sides of the chip with their naked
eye. After visually confirming that every ball on the sides were connected to the mobo, they
then dropped the mobo on a ultrasonic tray bath and left it there for 3 minutes. Then they
dried off the liquid from the mobo using the Hakko at a low temp and full air setting.

When I was observing how they did it, it gave me a feeling that the success rate would be
less then 30% since they were using really low tech tools. You can get the same
impression once you see the dirty cotton swabs on my picture. That plastic red thing
on the 2nd picture has a needle on it's head and this is what they used to put the balls
on the chip 1 by 1. That black thing beside it is what they used to scoop the new balls
from a small container. That tweezer on the right side of the balck scooper thing is what
they used to tap the chip on the 4 corners while installing the chip on the mobo. As you
can also see, there are other smaller chips sitting beside the GPU on the second picture.
Those chips are from cellphones and they have matallic guides for most of the chip used
on N o kia cell phones. This was the bottom side of the guide and the top part consisted
of a thin metal with holes that match the contacts on the chips. When reballing cellphone
chips, all they need to do is pour some balls on the guides and each ball would then fall
into the holes alligning themselves to the contacts. This process only takes a few seconds
to accomplish, as compared to putting the balls one by one on the GPU. They did not have
a guide for the GPU and CPU so they were forced to put the balls 1 by 1. I think the
technicians are now mad at me because of this... because the owner did not charge me
anything and I got the reballing for free.

I had some experiences reballing NON-LEAD-FREE BGAs on cellphones a few years ago.
I no longer do it because other people can do it better than me and for a cheap fee.
The trick to alligning is simple, you just have to apply very little sticky flux on the board
so that the chip will not slide out of allignment during heating. Too much sticky flux will
cause bubbling flux when it is heated and this will make the chip "dance" in a popping
motion during the process. I usually heat one corner first and watch it sink gently closer
to the board. Then I heat the corner next to it (NOT the opposite corner but a corner on
the same side of the chip). Once one side has some of the balls sticking to the mobo, it
is very unlikely that the chip will go out of allignment. I hope that someone else will
agree with me when I say that "The Chip will actually allign itself" once a few balls on
one side has been alligned successfully. Initial alligment prior to applying heat is very
important. The sticky flux will prevent some of the movements on the chip when it is
still cool, but once you apply some heat, the adhesive property disappears. That is why
I start on just one corner so that I could get some balls sticking to the mobo before
the flux becomes completely liquid on all areas.

Please bear in mind that I am not in the BGA rework industry unlike some people here.
I don't have the slightest authority regarding these matters. I am only sharing my very
little experience regarding this topic. Feel free to flame me for my primitive understanding
on BGA reworking and reballing... I really don't mind since the process worked anyway.

I am not happy with the 360 and for me it is like a girlfriend that cheats on you. I will
never trust this thing again, but I still don't have the guts to dump it once and for all.
I treat this thing like a princess and I always buy her the latest games/accessories/hdtv
and spend most of my free time with her (in fact, she gets more time than my human
girlfriend). What do I get in return? Three Red Lights... ;-( Is this her way of saying "I Love You" ?  
You gotta see the irony in that...

Best Regards...


P.S. (Off topic)
Are there any good games for the XBOX 1 lately? I plan to hook up with my ex-girlfriend soon.
She may not be as sexy as my current girlfriend, but she is someone I can rely on...

Sorry for the long post... I love writing, it's my job.

This post has been edited by skiddd: Mar 2 2007, 07:01 AM

[RDC]

If you really want to be abusing that thing you need to run it for hours on end (gaming, GoW, Oblivion, not just a demo running), then turn it off and let it sit for hours on end until it's cooled all the way down. Having it on all the time isn't really going to stress it too much, unless the cooling was inadequate and you've about eliminated that factor. The heating up and cooling down cycles of the "average" persons use of the 360 is a lot more abusive (expanding and contracting) than firing it up and letting it run for a week straight.

Yes a BGA package will, to a point, "self-align" as long as it's close enough to begin with.

[bojngles]

This is fucking nuts.  Awesome, but insane.

[Biablo]

Hello

I have gotten the 3 red lights a week ago, i did not know what to do untill i got to this post.
I am sending the board to an Electornics company i know from where i work.
What should i tell them to check in the BGA Chips?

[Team Modfreakz]

GPU reballing is a permanent solution to fix errors, like 0102, 0110, 0022

We have reballed six xbox360 GPU's and also done 24h hardcore test!! no frezzes, no errors, no problems!!!

Profesionell reballing station is very very expensive, so we used a reballing kit!!
There is no simple and cheap solutions for noobs!!!

GPU/CPU stencil drawing for interested people!!


here is a small picture summary!





Important!! you have to follow this temperature profile if you want solder the BGA's back to board!!

[Tortuga2112]

Hi, looks good . good to hear there's a permanent fix.

where did you get the re-balling kit?

the stencil is the best time saving idea. are you selling those stencils/templates?

I"m assuming you only use the stencil to line up the solder balls and not while actually heating , right?

any video of the process?

are you using solder with lead now? what's this entire process cost?

did you heat the top and bottom simultaneously using two heat guns or something?

sorry for all the questions , but I'm sure other people want to known as well .

This post has been edited by Tortuga2112: Mar 8 2007, 08:48 PM

[weirdal68]

In the first pics of the BGA removal at the start of this thread, the yellow cap on the right looks like it may be bulging (ie overheated). Considering its proximity to the heatsink, I wouldn't be surprised if it was toast or at least marginal.

Secondly, somebody on eb-ay is offering a 3rl repair service for $30 iirc. According to the warranty, you pay $30 which is refunded if he can't repair it (and you're only out shipping costs). I wonder what his success rate is. If he does anything more than reflowing, I'd be surprised.

Another ebayer is offering a GET-RICH-QUICK REPAIRING <3rl> 360s book. No relation. Just mentioned it for the yuks...

[g0dM@n]

wow, never thought someone would spend all that time fixing it... your time is probably worth more, but damn that looks like an awesome accomplishment!!

[AbboBasT]

Anybody in the UK want their 360 reballed, use these guys: http://www.gtelectronics.co.uk/

My XBOX had 3 red lights, console froze after just 1 min of being switched on, not even playing a game!

These guys had it for 5 days, reballed the GPU and sent it back all for £65 (normally would cost £55 but i live in Northern Ireland), have had it back 6 days now and it has worked 100% since.

After reading this thread I can see how good value this was, considering the work/time involved. Can't recommend these guys highly enough.

Plus, you pay nothing until they call you to confirm it's been repaired and even then it's through Paypal.

Fantastic Service.

[wellmodded]

reballing it tht will fix it but eventualyl u the point will break again unless u use diffrent more stronger solder but if the smae solder it break givin time

[grim_d]

QUOTE(AbboBasT @ Jun 4 2007, 11:40 PM)

Anybody in the UK want their 360 reballed, use these guys: http://www.gtelectronics.co.uk/

My XBOX had 3 red lights, console froze after just 1 min of being switched on, not even playing a game!

These guys had it for 5 days, reballed the GPU and sent it back all for £65 (normally would cost £55 but i live in Northern Ireland), have had it back 6 days now and it has worked 100% since.

After reading this thread I can see how good value this was, considering the work/time involved. Can't recommend these guys highly enough.

Plus, you pay nothing until they call you to confirm it's been repaired and even then it's through Paypal.

Fantastic Service.

gt electronics use the heatgun method to fix boxes, and they make an awful mess of the board. Either they bought some every expensive reballing equipment (unlikely) or they lied.

[bandjwet]

QUOTE(Team Modfreakz @ Mar 8 2007, 05:02 AM)

GPU reballing is a permanent solution to fix errors, like 0102, 0110, 0022

We have reballed six xbox360 GPU's and also done 24h hardcore test!! no frezzes, no errors, no problems!!!

Another way to do the reballing of a XBOX360 GPU is via :

http://www.solder.net/ezreball.asp

with the instructions at:

http://solder.net/technical/ezreball_demo.asp

BWET

[Ichisuke]

QUOTE(bandjwet @ Dec 6 2007, 01:13 AM)

Another way to do the reballing of a XBOX360 GPU is via :

http://www.solder.net/ezreball.asp

with the instructions at:

http://solder.net/te...reball_demo.asp

BWET[/b]

I don't understand... what do I have to use for EZ reballing??? What tools do I need?
Anyway..... why someone doesn't make some "xbox360reballing tool" for sale.....