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[Tortuga2112]

I like it , but those damn fans are $25 each and shipping on top .

unless I already had them sitting around I wouldn't be using them any time soon .

the fans I was using may not be as good , but they're cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

post #111


have you done any temp testing with the cover on ?

I like the idea of reversing the fans as well. I know you're not supposed to do this because it blows dust into the box , but it seems worth it to me if you get better cooling.

just gotta open and clean it every now and then .

[fahrenheit]

So is it safe to say that PCB flexing is the root cause of most of these problems? Based on your findings SMTRework, it certainly seems like it to me.

The heat combined with the heatsink mounting being the cause of the flex, but the flex itself is the logical reason the solderpoints are seperating? Am I right?

It certainly would explain the heatgun fixes' mixed results and its a bitter pill for me to swallow as I've only recently done the heatgun fix (to what appears on the surface as a successful fix). But knowing this, my board is just one more flex away from failure.  

[IcBlUsCrN]

I guess i should check this forum more often but see if you can find the problem, these are not the 360 pics but identical
(IMG:http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/Icbluscrn/fig2.jpg)

another one

(IMG:http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/Icbluscrn/fig4.jpg)


and yes this is what i used SMT

(IMG:http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/Icbluscrn/P1010151.jpg)




"Were did you get the "BGA placement" and or Solder sphere alignment system? You forgot to mention that. It's not this easy people. This is a TON of misinformation. "

 not needed, sure if your building hundreds of boards ok, but i have done a ton of manual rework on bga chips with out special machines, fact is when have the chip on the board and the solder is reflowed the chip will actually stick to the board by the solder even in its molten state, you can tell by trying to move the chip slightly it will move back to the previous spot so all you have to do is align it right.

By the way i am not an assembler or reworker i am a rf engineer so most of the time i dont do my own rework. By no means am i saying it is easy just saying it possible.......Like i siad i am 1 for 2

Only tools i used was a rework station,oven,solder,tweezers,paint,flux  

You may call it misinformation or whatever you want  i call it worked for me.

[SMTRework]

Tortuga,

I never took a reading with the cover on but I did take a reading with the cover off after some play time. The reading at the base of the CPU heat sink (closest to the CPU) was ranging from 100 - 115 degrees F. Your pics look good. Definately an inprovment over the stock cooling system.



fahrenheit,

"So is it safe to say that PCB flexing is the root cause of most of these problems? Based on your findings SMTRework, it certainly seems like it to me. "

----> Yes.

The heat combined with the heatsink mounting being the cause of the flex, but the flex itself is the logical reason the solderpoints are seperating? Am I right?

----> Yes, Heat in addtion to the to board construction material and aided by the "pressure" the heat sink retention puts on the motherboard itself cases this failure.



IcBlUsCrN,

I do applaud you on your efforts. At least you're going in the right direction. The GPU is not the problem. Please read my findings here:

XBOX 3 Red Lights

If you can find a way to remove the CPU in order to reball it without damaging it or even warping it, you'll be golden. You also face the possibility of damaging the BGA Pads on the motherboard at the time of removal.

This post has been edited by RDC: Jan 29 2007, 04:04 PM

[Safrole]

I feel really dumb.  I never knew that exposing solder to high thermal cycles would raise its melting temperature.  I'm no metallurgist, but that's the first time I've ever heard such a thing in my life.

I contacted a guy who does BGA rework in Philly.  He's going to take a look at my board and attempt to repair it.  If successful, I said I would evangelize a bit for his services.  Of course such an endeavor can be hit and miss, but not as hit and miss as heat gunning down in your basement.

[SMTRework]

Safrole,

No need to feel dumb, there is no reason for you to know such detail about BGA reworking. This stuff isn't information that anyone outside the industry would know.

- Joe

[RDC]

Anyone that's been soldering awhile should know that heating and cooling the same solder over and over turns it to crap after awhile. That's nothing I'd consider "industry info", but is more well known among people that do repair work on different types of electronics (this happens in TVs a lot too) as opposed to someone that solders more for recreation.

@SMTRework - I fixed your links so they go to the article, instead of whatever the front page news is there, interesting read, though some close up pics of the damaged BGA joints before pulling the CPU would have been a lot better, if ya get ahold of another to check out that would be a nice add.

[hiddensphinx]

Great info by SMTRework

I wonder if MS uses high quality solder whenever it refurbishes a Xbox 360 motherboard which comes from its repair centre  

[SMTRework]

RDC, thanks for fixing the links. The "Edit" option seems to disappear after a certain time period. In the next few weeks I should be getting a hold of another board. I'll take a photo of the lifting sphere(s) once it arrives.

HiddenSphinx,

MS doesn't repair these boards. They replace them.

If they are ever repaired, it will happen at the PCB manufacturer's facility in the far east. We did discover over the weekend that some of these boards are manufactured by "Hannstar".

I've been dealing with Hannstar boards since 2000 off and on. They are some of the lowest quality boards I've ever seen.

[fahrenheit]

Well I've done the 'heatgun fix' once and have gotten about 15 hours of use so far, but in the inevitable failure of the unit again what else can be done that is fairly practical and potentially less harmful than just re-bombarding the board with heat in hope that I get a favourable flex again?

How much room for flex is there on these boards when they are in a cold state? Could a system of supports and anchors be mounted ridgedly to the case and motherboard inorder to either bow the board or prevent the board from bowing? I really like this idea rather than apply more potentially damaging heat, but it would take alot of fine tuning and some good old fashioned ingenuity to perfect.

[IcBlUsCrN]

QUOTE(SMTRework @ Jan 27 2007, 01:56 PM)

IcBlUsCrN,

I do applaud you on your efforts. At least you're going in the right direction. The GPU is not the problem. Please read my findings here:

XBOX 3 Red Lights

If you can find a way to remove the CPU in order to reball it without damaging it or even warping it, you'll be golden. You also face the possibility of damaging the BGA Pads on the motherboard at the time of removal.

Mine was a gpu issue , saw it on the xray myself no doubt about it, + the fact that it worked after the repair. My development 360, just developed the 3 red ligts as well so hopefully i can get it xrayd as well, even though this one is "starnger" then the other 3 red lights ive seen, as soon as power up it goes to the 3 red ligts , the other ones i have worked on took a few seconds for the 3 red lights, But thats for another thread.

[hiddensphinx]

QUOTE(SMTRework @ Jan 29 2007, 06:46 PM)

If they are ever repaired, it will happen at the PCB manufacturer's facility in the far east. We did discover over the weekend that some of these boards are manufactured by "Hannstar".

I've been dealing with Hannstar boards since 2000 off and on. They are some of the lowest quality boards I've ever seen.

You mean at this place in Taiwan? :......  

http://www.hannstarb...Frame-board.htm

[SMTRework]

Sphinx,

Yes, that's them. In all actuality it's not mainly their fault. It's the design engineers who are to blame and or the people responsible for the budget when the 360 was being designed.

For all you folks wanting to get the best cooling possible for your GPU, here is some helpful info...


Below is an image of the GPU. The smaller Die on top of the GPU does not make contact with the GPU heat sink. It's actually .017mm shorter than the main Die on the top of the chip.

You definitely want to add some kind of heat dissipating material to the top of that small die in order to fill the "gap" between it and the heat sink.

(IMG:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b84/aqs12/xbox360GPU.jpg)


- Joe / SMTRework

[T Ghost]

SMTRepair, I loved your article on Console Realms, but left me with some questions.

You say that reballing on 360 like BlackOmega posted would not be possible once the melting temperature of the solder used on the GPU is over 210°C and the component wouldn't survive such temperature, therefore you can't use the same component on a reballing job on the XBOX 360.

But if melting temp destroys component, how can you solder after reballing the component and correctly alingning it on the board? Wouldn't the temp needed to melt the new solder destroy the new component also?

Another question I got was when you say that the 360 problem #1 is the lack of fresh air entering the system.

Do you think that this problem is the sine qua non condition to 3RL?

If yes, how come not all XBOX 360 show 3RL, once all have the same air exaustion system?

I already requested MegaMania, the Brazilian technician who claims to have done several reballing procedures sucessfully on the XBOX 360 GPU's, to produce a vídeo showing the whole process.

He answered to that request positively, saying will produce such video evidence soon, but never said how or when.

I'm anxiously waiting for him to prove his claims, once he never answered the request of another user on a Brazilian XBOX forum for testimonials from his alledged customers for the reballing process. He was never able to produce names and emails of the people who owns the XBOX 360 that he alledged to have reballed sucessfully, a procedure that's fairly common on the XBOX Brazilian online community.

Thanks for the attention!

This post has been edited by T Ghost: Feb 7 2007, 03:09 AM

[SMTRework]

SMTRepair, I loved your article on Console Realms, but left me with some questions.

You say that reballing on 360 like BlackOmega posted would not be possible once the melting temperature of the solder used on the GPU is over 210°C and the component wouldn't survive such temperature, therefore you can't use the same component on a reballing job on the XBOX 360.

But if melting temp destroys component, how can you solder after reballing the component and correctly alingning it on the board? Wouldn't the temp needed to melt the new solder destroy the new component also?


----> T Ghost, I have to explain in more detail the general theory behind BGA reworking to help you better understand. The chip package (or body) itself is subjected to a much higher temperature than the solder balls (spheres) under it during the “reworking” or even “reflowing” process. The heat has to go “through” the chip first in order to reach the solder balls under it, this is a trait that is inherited by the design of the chip.

So, in order to get the CPU not GPU temperature high enough to reflow the broken down solder under the CPU to melt, you have to expose the rest of the CPU chip to uncommonly high temps that are severely high enough to damage it.

The breaking down of the CPU solder is due to the severely high operating temperatures that it runs at up until the time of failure or the 3RL appear.

T Ghost,
To answer your question, if you can successfully remove the CPU at a low enough temperature to avoid any damage to it, you can “clean up” the chip by standard methods and reball it with fresh new solder. The fresh new solder will not need such severely high temps as the old solder did in order to reball the chip and remount it on the motherboard. Standard reworking “lead free” reflow profiles would apply and those temperatures are within the standard levels of 210 – 240c which turn out to be about 300 – 320c from the top heater (because the solder balls under the chip need to reach 210 – 240c)



To the rest of the readers:

Understand that the GPU does not run at such a high temp as the CPU. The GPU solder is not nearly as broken down as the CPU solder balls. This in essence allows the GPU solder balls to possibly be reflowed at a much lower temperature. Please understand that in many cases of a heat gun being used on the GPU that the solder is STILL not being reflowed because it’s not that easy.

Understand that not only does heat need to be applied to the top of the chip but also under the motherboard directly under the chip that you are attempting to “reflow / rework” at THE SAME TIME. This is called “preheating” the board. Without any pre-heater running at the same time as the top heater you are in no WAY going to get the solder balls under the chip hot enough for reflow. If no bottom board pre-heater is used you will almost 100% damage the chip you are attempting to remove / reflow due to the additional heat that will be required from the top to “make up” for the lack of bottom heat.


=====================================================




Another question I got was when you say that the 360 problem #1 is the lack of fresh air entering the system.

Do you think that this problem is the sine qua non condition to 3RL?

If yes, how come not all XBOX 360 show 3RL, once all have the same air exaustion system?


----> The high heat level in the 360 is one of the main contributing factors for the 3RL.

----> Because possibly the other factors involved with the 3RL may not be as severe in some models as they are in others. (ie board warping, how the CPU settled onto the board at the time of manufacturing. Etc..) If I had to guess, I would have to say that many of the 360’s will suffer from this problem eventually.


To everyone,

This condition or problem of BGA packages is nothing new. I've been dealing with this stuff for many years. Currently I have a stack of 100+ pcs Sony Vaio Laptop motherboards with exactly the same "type" of problem here for repair. Engineering a repair solution for CPU based PCBs is not an easy task. I would have offered a repair solution for this 3RL condition but there is no money to be made. Laptop motherboards sell for $400 - $600+ each pc. Suggesting a repair charge of $200+ per board is not uncommon thus making it worth repairing. When you're dealing with a game console that costs $400 new, there is no margin to suggest a repair charge of $200. People, please understand that all this info would have never been released by me if a repair solution was possible to the public. I am a businessman first and foremost. I do not play video games on any regular basis. Once this problem was brought to my attention and I analyzed that there was no money to be made here I felt it was the least I can do to at least fill you in on what’s going on with your $400 boat anchors.


There is no guess work with my reports and my findings. What I state or have stated is fact. I'm not assuming this is a problem with the CPU or suggesting this is a problem with the CPU, I'm telling you this is a problem with the CPU and not the GPU in the now 3 3RL systems I've analyzed.

It's always expected to have people criticize one's theory and logic behind one's findings but please, if someone's going to make an assumption or even statement suggesting otherwise, please ask them for their credentials and or what underline proof they have that can support their findings or statement.


Joe / SMTRework

This post has been edited by SMTRework: Feb 7 2007, 04:25 PM