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[bigjimmy]

Very cool.....I like the pics.....

Reballing that thing with normal solder would take ages wouldnt it? And im guessing to be able to do that youd need a special SMD soldering tools

[JEB-101]

Verry cool and impressive! Props!


JEB

[sowa99]

Check Team Modfreakz's site:
http://www.freepler....l/hp/index.html
There are aslo few pics

[SMTRework]

Folks,

This is inaccurate information. The people in Brazil may have been able to remove the GPU from the board but what they are claiming to be the source of the problem is inaccurate. I'm willing to bet that there is no way that same motherboard pictured with the reballed GPU even worked after the re-mounting of the chip. This is mainly due to the amount of heat that was needed to remove the GPU from the board.

Also, the "black" points that the technician points out to be the suspect "bad contacts" can't possibly be the source of the problem due to their location under the GPU. You simply cannot have "Bad contacts" half way inside the outer row of balls from any given edge. ALL the balls leading to that row will need to have been "pulled" away to even get to that inside row of balls. Meaning that the GPU would have failed completely a long time ago with the loss of contacts of the outer pads until it finally reached the "blackened" area's solder balls.

Folks, I've been reworking BGA packages for the past 7 years. We're researching the problem with the 360 at the moment and a statement / results will be made in the near future.

Thanks,

Joe K

This post has been edited by SMTRework: Jan 24 2007, 02:07 AM

[hanksemenec]

To SMTRework

Maybe you can confirm this.

I have looked at the memories under a microscope and noticed that the balls were standing too high. It looked like the reflow profile was not correct when they build my 2005 machine.

If I am right they have applied solder paste and the profile was too cold and melted only the paste. The balls never got hot enough to melt and collapse. I have seen this on another device build for me by my CM. The attachment was so poor that the contact would crack after temp cycling.

I did a reflow on 2 memories that were suspect; the balls did reflow and collapsed into proper oval shape. Before the reflow some balls looked irregular.

Hank

[sh4dowd4ncer]

To SMTRework :

I have a friend who has just got a BGA rework station and he's planning to reattach the GPU from a "dead with 3 red lights 360" and i hope you can help him in clearing out a few things he's not quite sure of:

1. lifting the gpu from the mainboard can only be done with heating up the gpu itself up to the temperature that would melt the solder balls, but just how many degrees would suffice without causing damage to the GPU itself? and for how long should the heating process done?

and there are several very tiny SMD components like those ICs on the GPU, so they might get slightly relocated since the solder on the ICs would melt and the ICs would be prone to relocate if you're not careful when lifting the GPU, so i'm guessing the heating should be focused on the solder balls below without having heat transferred to the GPU above it which AFAIK is only possible with infra red soldering station?

2. are there any special way to be taken for cleaning up the solder balls from the GPU and the mainboard? just 'melt em and suck em' is good enough right?

3. he's not quite sure which size of BGA solder to use for soldering the GPU back, do you have any pointers on that?

Thanks in Advance...

[Safrole]

SMT, I don't understand how the heat to remove the GPU could kill it.  If one applies enough heat to reflow a component, haven't you by definition also applied enough heat to remove it?  When I attempted a reflow, I watched solder melt on top of the GPU, then I heated even further.  My reflow failed, but I applied quite a bit of heat and it worked perfectly for about 50 hrs and 25 thermal cycles, maybe more thermal cycles even.

As a BGA reworker, I am most interested in your practical advice, as Shadowdancer asked.  If any homegrown reworker can succeed, I can.  Half the battle is knowing who to listen to.  I've seen several pretty reballing pictures around, but nothing in the way of pointers or success.

As a failed heatgunner, I would like to hear your thoughts on reflowing with simple heating, perhaps with a small pressure on the component during reflow.  TIA

Here some Germans use sticky tape to pull a BGA component for rework: http://www.ibl-loett...bga_rework.html

Here's their other page with some interesting diagrams, and warnings on the "popcorn effect": http://www.ibl-loett..._soldering.html

[Safrole]

Here's some tips from the pros: http://www.empf.org/...s/oct03/bga.htm

[IcBlUsCrN]

SMT, You can remove and reinstall the gpu and still have it work, I just did it yesterday. Of course ive only had a 50% sucess rate , buti have figured some things out since my first attempt, I was lucky enough to have the board xrayd and saw the bad solder joints on my first board, on the second i could not get the xrays so i winged it and reflowed gpu & mem chips.

couple of tips for those that will try,
1st m$ft uses a cheap as pcb board, even though it is multilayered you must be very careful on my first board i used to much heat or to big of a nozzle and it warped the board, i mean badly, after it cooled off it returned to a semi  normal shape, but i am sure that the warping caused solder joints on the otherside to break so that board was KIA

2. the way that worked for me was i put the whole board in a temp chamber, and set it to 85°c for 30 minutes, then i used the  reflow sation to heat up the bottom side of the gpu a little and then over the whole tops side for couple of minutes then i applied fllux  and kept heating it up, nuged it with tweezers and it moved,  after i took off the gpu. same process to put it back on,

by the way nothing melted in the chamber all i wanted to do was build some heat in the ground plain.

on the 1st board i used i hakko 850b rework station, but like i said either i used a too big nozzle or to much heat
on the 2nd i used a xtronic hot air 626 , Heat set to 6 air set to 0~1
too much air will blow things around, You have to apply heat to everything , including the top of the gpu. It does take a few minutes, and use flux (i used solder paste "chipquik no-clean paste flux" comes in a handy syringe to squeeze under gpu .for solder  I used kester .015 rosin core (some old stuff expired it 02 to give you an idea)

This post has been edited by IcBlUsCrN: Jan 24 2007, 10:22 PM

[Safrole]

Do you mean you used regular solder and not solder balls?  85C is 185F on my handy kitchen oven, so I can preheat the thing similar to you before the real work begins.  Once you've removed the component, do you then wick off the extra solder and then just tin up all the pads?  Do you tin up the pads and the gpu?  Also did you apply paste only to the areas receiving solder?  Your comment makes it sound like you squirted it in there indiscriminately.  Sorry for the trial lawyer questions.  And I'm not looking for any assurances of success, just the best homebrew route.

[SMTRework]

Maybe you can confirm this.

I have looked at the memories under a microscope and noticed that the balls were standing too high. It looked like the reflow profile was not correct when they build my 2005 machine.

If I am right they have applied solder paste and the profile was too cold and melted only the paste. The balls never got hot enough to melt and collapse. I have seen this on another device build for me by my CM. The attachment was so poor that the contact would crack after temp cycling.

I did a reflow on 2 memories that were suspect; the balls did reflow and collapsed into proper oval shape. Before the reflow some balls looked irregular.



Hi Hank

If the actual ball wasn't making contact you would have seen problems right from the start (not sure if you were). It wouldn't have passed the post assembly functional tets at the manufacturer. What you're describing is a quality control issue at the time of manufacturing. I'm not an expert in the assembly process so I cannot comment in depeth as to what may have happened with the Video RAM. If you were able to reflow it and allow it to drop, that should hold for the life of the part if it's cooled properly during it's operational life.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shadow


 have a friend who has just got a BGA rework station and he's planning to reattach the GPU from a "dead with 3 red lights 360" and i hope you can help him in clearing out a few things he's not quite sure of:

1. lifting the gpu from the mainboard can only be done with heating up the gpu itself up to the temperature that would melt the solder balls, but just how many degrees would suffice without causing damage to the GPU itself? and for how long should the heating process done?

and there are several very tiny SMD components like those ICs on the GPU, so they might get slightly relocated since the solder on the ICs would melt and the ICs would be prone to relocate if you're not careful when lifting the GPU, so i'm guessing the heating should be focused on the solder balls below without having heat transferred to the GPU above it which AFAIK is only possible with infra red soldering station?

-----> Hi Shadow, the chip's solder spheres will need to reach 210 - 220 degrees C under normal circumstances. You will not be able to "reflow" either the GPU or the CPU due to the increased melting threshold that has developed in these 360's due to their extreme operating temperatures. This is where the problem lies. You can generate a ton of "Pre-heater" heat from the bottom of the board and increase top heater temps at the same time but all the heat will be transferred to the component wether you apply it from the bottom of the board or the top of the chip. It's a bad situation. Standard reflow "profiles" don't apply with these 360s.



2. are there any special way to be taken for cleaning up the solder balls from the GPU and the mainboard? just 'melt em and suck em' is good enough right?
-----> You get better cleaning by using a de-solder copper braid with a "blade" type of iron tip. If you're not careful with this process you can damage the overlay coating around the pads.




3. he's not quite sure which size of BGA solder to use for soldering the GPU back, do you have any pointers on that?
-----> Both of these BGAs are 24mil or .024"




Saferol

SMT, I don't understand how the heat to remove the GPU could kill it. If one applies enough heat to reflow a component, haven't you by definition also applied enough heat to remove it?
-----> under normal circumstances yes, you're right. But due to the extremely high operating temps of the 360 the reflow thresh hold of the solder is greatly increased beyond any reasonable level.



When I attempted a reflow, I watched solder melt on top of the GPU, then I heated even further. My reflow failed, but I applied quite a bit of heat and it worked perfectly for about 50 hrs and 25 thermal cycles, maybe more thermal cycles even.
-----> Yes, the solder on top of the chip may / will reflow but the solder under the chip is another story.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SMT, You can remove and reinstall the gpu and still have it work, I just did it yesterday. Of course ive only had a 50% success rate , buti have figured some things out since my first attempt, I was lucky enough to have the board xrayd and saw the bad solder joints on my first board, on the second i could not get the xrays so i winged it and reflowed gpu & mem chips.

-----> First, X-Ray inspection does not reveal cracked solder contacts with the motherboard pads. I know, I own an Xray system. "Bad solder joints" don't cut it for any kind of reasonable explanation.



couple of tips for those that will try,
1st m$ft uses a cheap as pcb board, even though it is multilayered you must be very careful on my first board i used to much heat or to big of a nozzle and it warped the board, i mean badly, after it cooled off it returned to a semi normal shape, but i am sure that the warping caused solder joints on the otherside to break so that board was KIA

------> Chalk this up to a learning experience.




2. the way that worked for me was i put the whole board in a temp chamber, and set it to 85°c for 30 minutes, then i used the reflow sation to heat up the bottom side of the gpu a little and then over the whole tops side for couple of minutes then i applied fllux and kept heating it up, nuged it with tweezers and it moved, after i took off the gpu. same process to put it back on,

------> "same process to put it back on? Are you Kidding? Were did you get the "BGA placement" and or Solder sphere alignment system? You forgot to mention that. It's not this easy people. This is a TON of misinformation.



by the way nothing melted in the chamber all i wanted to do was build some heat in the ground plain.
------> This is believe you may have accomplished.





on the 1st board i used i hakko 850b rework station, but like i said either i used a too big nozzle or to much heat
on the 2nd i used a xtronic hot air 626 , Heat set to 6 air set to 0~1
too much air will blow things around,
-----> If you're "blowing things around" you're way off the mark on proper BGA rework protocol. WAYYY too much airflow..



You have to apply heat to everything , including the top of the gpu. It does take a few minutes, and use flux (i used solder paste "chipquik no-clean paste flux" comes in a handy syringe to squeeze under gpu .for solder I used kester .015 rosin core (some old stuff expired it 02 to give you an idea)

------> You said:  "i used solder paste "chipquik no-clean paste flux" ....Well which is it? Solder paste or Paste flux? Kester .015 rosin core? This is solder wire!!! What are you using solder wire on? This is BGA reworking for the love of god.



Once again, this is Mis-information that is exactly how bad information gets around.

[SMTRework]

I think I need to restate an important factor in many of 360 owners "reflow" attempts. Also, this will better answer "Saferol's" question in a little more in detail.

When many of you are applying hot air to the top of the suspect chip, you're seeing results and assuming that you actually "reflowed" the solder of that particular component. What many of you are actually experiencing is a decrease in the clearance between the problem solder ball(s) and the motherboard pad. This decrease in clearance is enough for the two surfaces to make contact. This contact is enough to allow the system to function temporarily.

Why do you think that wrapping the system in a towel and suffocating the system allows it to work for a short period of time?

The main reason "reflowing" and or applying any heat to the chip / board is working is due to board flexing. The board is actually flexing or changing shape thus reducing the clearance between the suspect solder balls and the PCB (motherboard) pad.

To get true actual solder reflow on these 360's GPU / CPU is going to require a tremendous amount of heat. On one board I worked with, the bottom preheater was set for full heat at 220c and the top heater actually achieved heat in the 400c range which is almost certain death for any common BGA package. Of couse all of the finest BGA rework materials were used in this process.

This post has been edited by SMTRework: Jan 25 2007, 03:34 AM

[SMTRework]

Hello,

My full writeup can be seen here:

XBOX 3 Red Light Problem

This post has been edited by RDC: Jan 29 2007, 04:01 PM

[Tortuga2112]

hey smt ,

where'd you get those smaller fans ? do they come like that or did you build the aluminum housing for it ?

[SMTRework]

Hello Toturga,

Those fans are actually Sony Vaio laptop fans as seen here:

Sony Vaio Fan

The heat sink portion of the fan can be removed by gentle wiggling and pulling it off. It comes off rather easy. For the rear fan (fan C), you'll need to dremel cut a square the size of the FAN opening. The side fan (Fan D)simply uses the side vent holes already in the unit.



A better image of the system with the DVD Drive installed is below:

(IMG:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b84/aqs12/Xbox2-1.jpg)

These fans are great for the job because they actually take in air from the top and bottom and expel the air out of the side.


-Joe

This post has been edited by SMTRework: Jan 26 2007, 09:03 PM