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[awake33]

QUOTE(deltop @ Oct 13 2006, 12:03 PM)

I actually think they have a good point about ICT, there will be a large installed userbase of component only tv's for a very long time, add in the 360 HD-dvd drive and you've got a great number of people who can't support HDMI. It just won't make financial sense for studio' to use ICT, if ever.

The statement made by MS, if true, is one of the most egotistical things I've ever heard a company say.
This 360 add-on will literally be the ONLY HD-DVD device that does not conform to the full standard set of HD-DVD players.

So, IMHO,  this MS statement is totally backwards and it is MS that will get bad press for being the creator of the ONE AND ONLY device that does not fully function as it should for HD-DVDs.

QUOTE(deltop @ Oct 13 2006, 12:03 PM)

They are going to stuggle enough to get people to buy HD discs without crippling them to start with. Besides MS comitment to HD isn't only the addon drive, they have financial stakes in many other areas, they certainly know more about what's going on behind the scenes than we do and wouldn't have released a analogue only drive without being certain it wouldn't be a problem.

Big companies, including MS, make mistakes all the time.  The original Xbox is one example, forcing the requirement for MCE as an OS in conjunction with the 360 is another.  They do not have the best interests of the consumer at heart, it comes down to money.

QUOTE(deltop @ Oct 13 2006, 12:03 PM)

Worrying about a digital connection is pointless too, it's entirely down to your display. There is no technical reason why an analogue signal shouldn't give you just as good a picture as a digital one. In fact some tv's will even give you a better picture via analogue than digital. Although it can also be true the other way around! As I said it's all down to your tv.

  Where are you getting your information?  Information carried in digital formats is far more resistant to interference that analog transmissions.  It is dependant on signal strength, not signal quality.  Especially with video as it resides in the spatial domain when in analog form.

This is precisely why you can get a perfect picture over the air with an HD broadcast.  As long as the information arrives intact it will be perfect.

If a TV has a better picture from analog inputs that digital it means they did a shitty job on the scaler.

QUOTE(mc_365 @ Oct 13 2006, 10:41 PM)

MS is one of the main backers of HD-DVD and helped to develop some of the content protection used, so they know HDCP is not going to be strictley enforced for a few years at least.

MS is one of 15 companies working on this standard.  If you do some research you will also find that they have pissed off some of the other companies as well and the standards committee due to making statements equally assinine to some in this report.

QUOTE(rasstar @ Oct 13 2006, 07:02 PM)

Was that suppose to make sense? I actually meant televisions with HDMI. And yes the amount is in the single digits.

And to those of you mentioning this argument of TVs not having HDMI WITH HDCP....

All HDTV televisions manufactured after roughly June of this year have these features.  Even the cheapest of them like the Westinghouse brand.

You can buy a sleek and sexy 32" HDTV flat panel for less than a bulky 32" CRT cost just 3 years ago.

And like all electronics the prices will only continue to drop as more features are added for the same price.

MS needs to stick to operating systems and Flight Simulator.

As a side note, you should see the fiasco at my workplace that revolves around deploying Vista for 20% of our workstations......the Administrators are going insane from all the problems LOL.
It is RC2, and MS finally admitted that RTM will be pushed out to April, possibly later.
They talk big, but just because you are big doesn't mean you can make any promise you like just because you want to.

[mc_365]

QUOTE(Caldor @ Oct 14 2006, 12:35 AM)

These arguments are incorrect.

Sony itself has more than five models in the USA that support 1080P, and that's just one country's model range Sony internationally have far more different models. The Sony Braxia X LCD display range has more than five models. Then you have the Sony XRD LCOS model range. Then you have the Sony projector range. Ontop of this, *many* other manufacturers have native 1080P displays.

People with 1080P still want to enjoy the console solution for home theatre. It's cheap and certainly from the previous generation with XBMC gave better video quality, especially in the quality of the upscaling and interlacing. Many home theatre people with thousands of dollars into expensive scalers were upset to find the old xbox with XBMC provided better quality scaling.......

1080P is not a gimmick because progressive displays eliminate the possibility of interlaced artifacting. Progressive is better than interlaced.

http://www.avsforum....ad.php?t=729781



You are correct Sony just recently released 1 true 1080P model, in late Sept. 06.

But there are very few in the $1000 to $3000 range that do True 1080P.

At this point its marketing just like it was when they were selling EDTVs that only did 480P but they called them HDTVs becuase they could accept a HD signal.  That the whole reason the term EDTV was coined becuase of the scamming of un-educated consumers.

1080P LCDs have to display everything at 1080P becuase flat panels are fixed dispay sets everything is scaled to 1080P give or take some pixils.

Most manufacturers don't list pixil counts for a reason.

1080P is just a resolution it dosent mean 1:1 pixil mapping.

[Elemino]

QUOTE(xsirxx @ Oct 13 2006, 08:47 PM)

Its not that the audio and video doesnt play, it just looks like crap.  I have a dvd player with the Faroudja chip in it for scaling and it looks great.  I had trouble watchin a movie on it that was a dvd9+R(could read fast enough) and had to try it on the 360 and just turned it off, it was embarassing ugly.  The blacks were gray, not to mention the bad pixelation.

Sounds like a bad recording. Either that or you're using a cheap LCD tv to watch it on. I watch movies on my 360 using the component cables all the time and I NEVER have any problems. Plays better than all of my other DVD players.

QUOTE(awake33 @ Oct 14 2006, 12:57 AM)

Where are you getting your information?  Information carried in digital formats is far more resistant to interference that analog transmissions.  It is dependant on signal strength, not signal quality.  Especially with video as it resides in the spatial domain when in analog form.

You are right about digital being far more resistant to interference than analog, but we're not talking about a radio "transmission" here. You are wrong, it's signal quality, not signal strength that is the issue. You said so yourself... "interference." Analog is actually way more accurate than digital, as analog is infinitely variable. Digital does not have that benefit. Assuming the repoductive device can output all those variables, analog (interference free) is better than digital.

BTW... the reason your logic is flawed is because we have learned that if your source has a high enough signal strenth, it can override interference. That does not mean we want very strong signals. The first thing we do when connecting our tv to a cable line is throw in a dB filter to knock the level down. There is a such thing as having too much signal.

[Elemino]

QUOTE(Caldor @ Oct 15 2006, 02:28 AM)

Elemino your correct with the analogue issue -but the key to the issue here is that the media sources are typically digital now. And when you convert a digital signal to analogue there is a degree of error.

When talking about electronics the word is spelled "analog." I understand what you're saying about the d/a conversion... Usually theres no problem converting from digital to analog. You should get exactly the same results either way. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, the real problem isn't D/A conversion, its A/D conversion.

[tboneski]

why cant u just buy another one for your pc

[Elemino]

QUOTE(awake33 @ Oct 15 2006, 05:09 PM)

Elemino, I never said the stronger the better with regards to signal strength.  You are correct, you can have to much whether it is digital or analog.

However, it is very difficult to keep interference from analog signals.

What you say about signal strength vs quality is not true.

Take satelite for example, when setting up a dish you are going for the highest possible signal strength (on the receiving end, the transmitted power is already a set constant)

With digital signals, as long as your signal strength is within the optimum parameters, you have perfect results because it has not been interfered with.

I set up home theaters and whole house media distribution systems.  If you are correct then I guess we must all be in need of new schooling.

Well considering I'm an Electronics Telecommunications major, I'm pretty sure I have a good clue what's going on. There is an incredible dB loss when that signal finally gets to your dish. Like I said before, radio (RF) transmission is different. I forget what the formula is, but there is a significant dB loss just going like 10 ft from the transmitter to the receiver. I think we've both proven our points.. I'm not trying to argue the points, I just wanted to give another point of view.

[Tony42077]

Where exactly is the definitive source that says that the current 360s can't output an HDMI signal with the current hardware. The exact article that was quoted doesn't exactly sound like the official stance. The same guy that was asked the question about HDMI didn't know if the drive could play HD-DVDs with software when hooked up to a PC. So I would call his 'insider' knowledge a little suspect. Obviously someone in the know would have a solid answer for the ability to use this drive on a PC with software. I have a feeling that MS is keeping -everyone- in the dark while they finalize the specs for the new HDMI cable.

It looks like the retailers might have gotten more of a heads up than the HD-DVD rep did
http://www.lik-sang....roducts_id=8540
http://www.ebgames.c...oduct_id=802523

Quick question. Can the MS VGA cable theoretically output up to 1080P (1920x1080)? MS's website says that the cable can only due up to something like 1368x1024. Ayone know the full output capablities of a VGA cable standards?

[Elemino]

QUOTE(Tony42077 @ Oct 17 2006, 07:24 PM)

Quick question. Can the MS VGA cable theoretically output up to 1080P (1920x1080)? MS's website says that the cable can only due up to something like 1368x1024. Ayone know the full output capablities of a VGA cable standards?

VGA can definately do that resolution. It should be able to output whatever you monitor can take. It has no real bandwidth limits, because its not really a data output. (At least as far as I understand it its not)

I've never seen anyone definately say it cannot output digital. I raised that question a while back and no one had an answer. In fact I'm not sure who came up with "the output is only digital." I'm not sure if it was someone on these forums or a rep from MS. Someone came up with the idea and decided they wanted to believe it's only digital and asked their questions to reflect as such.

[throwingks]

QUOTE(emko @ Oct 13 2006, 09:02 PM)

why use it on a PC?

HTPCs or backups.

[pimpmaul69]

ok i have a big screen that is only 1080i native as probably 90% of everyone with big screens do..so personally i could care less.. it is only $250 usd as apposed to $500 usd the hd dvd players are.. so i dont understand why people are having such a fit about the hdmi wich isnt even being implemented for another 4 years and by then something bigger and better will be out, then everyone will complain that their hdmi is obsolete. i bought my premium 360 for $300 usd with a rechargable battery and plug and charge, a carrying case and ghost recon.. so $550 usd  is a great deal for an hd dvd player and an xbox 360...

[Tony42077]

QUOTE(pimpmaul69 @ Oct 19 2006, 07:08 AM)

so i dont understand why people are having such a fit about the hdmi wich isnt even being implemented for another 4 years and by then something bigger and better will be out, then everyone will complain that their hdmi is obsolete.

Most of the people complaining have TVs capable of 1080p. Most of these 1080p TVs will not display the full resolution (1920x1080) through the component hookups (although it's possible) that came with their 360s. HD TV is not going to get any higher of a resolution than 1080p for many years, so they want to display Halo 3 and other new games in their native res. of 1080p. For most it's not about the ICDT, its about displaying their 360 games and movies in full 1080p resolution.