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[Xbox-Scene]

No Digital Video Output (HDMI/DVI) for HD-DVD Xbox 360 Accessory?-- Posted by XanTium on May 22 20:23 EST
Major Nelson's latest blogcast (kinda) confirms (around min. 44:00) that the HD-DVD add-on won't support HDMI or DVI digital video output. That would mean that if and when the film studios decide to support the Image Constraint Token (ICT), the Xbox 360 will be forced to down-res the display output.
The addon will use the video output of the console and while Microsoft still doesn't want to officially deny the possibility of a HDMI cable/pack for the Xbox 360 it doesn't look very likely (also see A/V output). If it really was possible with a simple cable and without internal redesign of the Xbox 360 they would say it, don't you think?:

* Major Nelson (Larry Hyrb): "Talk to me about HDMI. What kind of output is this [HD-DVD accessory] gonna have?"

* Mark (a.k.a. The Xbox Accessories Guy): "The video output is handled by the console.  So you're gonna plug in the standard A/V packs that you're already using today... and I think the question is really, "hey, is there gonna be a HDMI pack?" ... You know, we continue to look at that stuff.  Today, component is great for HD; lets you get all the signal that you want out on all the TVs that are really out there.  We continue to look at this from a market perspective.  I think our competitors are doing the same thing, and we'll keep investigating that in the future.  Don't really have anything..." (trails off)

Thanks to Mike for the news/transcript.

In similar news... rumors suggest ICT a non-issue till at least 2010. From hdbeat.com:

That's the rumor that has been floating around the internet since E3. This German site (translated via Google) claims to have knowledge of a "backroom agreement" between hardware manufacturers and studios that would allow for full-resolution output through analog connectors until at least 2010. The theory is supported by the Xbox 360's HDMI-lacking HD DVD add-on, and the budget PS3's similar lack of a protected output. Still, rumors and back room agreements won't do much to ease the concern of HDTV owners with only analog inputs, and people considering buying a next-gen console to double as a high definition DVD player.

Image Constraint Token (ICT)?

HD-DVD and Blu-ray players must follow AACS guidelines pertaining to outputs over non-encrypted interfaces. This is set by a flag called the Image Constraint Token (ICT), which restricts the resolution for outputs without HDCP to 960×540. The decision to set the flag to restrict output ("down-convert") is left to the content provider. Warner Pictures is a proponent of ICT, and it is expected that Paramount and Universal will implement down-conversion as well. As of March 2006, 5 of the 6 studios releasing HD DVD content have announced they will not use ICT/down-conversion for the time being. AACS guidelines require that any title that implements the ICT must clearly state so on the packaging.

[Mega_mil]

ok.....so can someone tell me why I should get this now?  I'm really not into movies and DVD movies are good enough for me.  I seen a few HD movies and they do look alot better but to someone that isn't really into movies like that, I'm not sure if I should worry too much.  Are there any movie guys in here that have a good opinion on this drive?  Thanks in advanced?

(V)eGa

[Rebelatheart]

Uh, that sucks. Im not getting this now. I expected to use this until i get rid of my 360 for the 720 or whatever they call it. I dont wanna spend $200 or whatever its gonna cost, knowing i'll have to most likely get a standalone hd-dvd player in 3 years. I mean WTF. This thing better be $99. That'll be the only way id buy it.

Who cares about the market. MS should be worried about the future and all the pissed off ppl who bought a device only good for 3yrs.

Since they havent said "yes, we can make a hdmi cable for the 360 as the 360 supports it, but we wont release it until it makes sense", then Id buy it. But since they cant guarantee that they'll make one, and instead are beating around the bush talking all that mumbo jumbo that these companies like to do when they dont wanna admit something, Im passing unless its $99 like i said.

They just took away all my excitement for this add-on.

[smileboot]

Well thats setled it  no HDDVD addon for me  i might aswell wait till the ps3 drops to 300-200 if betaray wins or a HDDVD player at roughly the same cost by that time

[nightwulf28]

On an off note, the PS3 will support gaming and movies via hdmi, correct?  I believe I read that somewhere, but if someone could clarify.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

edit: spelling

This post has been edited by nightwulf28: May 23 2006, 01:59 AM

[rasstar]

I could care less about HDMI and HD movies. Hell my TV is HD but it does not have HDMI. Am I going to buy another TV just to get HDMI? HELL NO.

I know I am on the majority on this one. Not as many people care about HDMI or HD movies right now.

[Heet]

I'll be getting a set top hd dvd player, not a cheap substandard one.



In a year or two when they are within reach that is.  Till then dvd is good enough for me.  



I rip movies from 8GB to 1.5GB like most in these forums do so what do i care LOL.

[sicknasty413]

ehh idk why they bother making this if it doesnt even support hdmi/dvi... hdmi/dvi will deffinetly be growing redonkulously in the near future, in fact, its growing rapidly right now.

hmm, youd think a multi-billion dollar company would invest some of that money into what people want/need/and whats to come... but ehh, whatev. I wasnt gonna get one anyways.

[Lizard King]

It seems that every format of optical disc since DVD's inception have been an issue with format wars. In 1997 when DVD players arrived, Divx players were looming on the horizon. (at this time divx was a format of dvd that you would buy and could play for 48 hours after putting it in your player, then reactivate with a built in modem). The divx compression scheme came later and had no relation to the failed Divx disc.

 The promises that these companies were spreading were insane now when you look back at them (things like full audio soundtracks being in-cluded on the DVD movies, seamless branching for director's cuts type issues, divx discs killing rentals), and while people predicted Divx would not succeed, I think people were reluctant to spend $100 more for a Divx player (which also played DVDs) up until 1999 when divx folded. When this happened, you could get a player for about $200-$250, and I picked up one. The battle was won, I would not get stuck with a losing format.

Fast Forward to DVD-R and +R. Both good formats in their own right, but I wouldn't take sides. When dual format units arrived, I got on board with a burner for the PC quickly. While I prefer -R for the compatibility, +R seems more popular. An issue? No because I can use both. In this case, I do not care which format wins, as I will not be left in the dark.

Super Audio CD and DVD-Audio can both be great, especially when an artist plans for multi-channel (like The Flaming Lips' Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots), but it just isn't catching on. Clumsy disc interfaces, stupid format restrictions, etc. The Dualdisc and SACD Hybrid discs are keeping the formats alive otherwise. My latest DVD player features both formats, because AGAIN, I didn't want the losing side of this.

Now we have Blue Ray and HD Dvd. I think consumers are a bit more tech savvy, and with a few format wars still fresh, and DVD quality still acceptable for the masses, I'm guessing that most people will wait to see either a prominent winner, or a dual format player. I know I am. Format Wars only hurt consumers.

 So how does this relate to the Xbox HD player?

You now have a single mode player that may or may not have the movies you want to get. I'm sure that HD will have some titles that Blue Ray does not, and I'm sure there will be titles available on both, but I know one thing for sure: There will be some Blue Ray titles not available on HD. Add the that the ICT issue from lack of HDMI/DVI and this HD dvd player seems like a baby step. Maybe it's training wheels for a full featured player, and hopefully the price reflects that.

In my opinion, the HD player has three strikes against it. lack of HDMI/DVI and resulting ICT issues, single format and add-on. Im curious to see how it is percieved and purchased.

This post has been edited by Lizard King: May 23 2006, 02:04 AM

[assmonkey]

i really care less for hdmi untill there protection kicks in,thats the day people will go apeshit.

[kidkinetix]

QUOTE(assmonkey @ May 23 2006, 01:39 AM)

i really care less for hdmi untill there protection kicks in,thats the day people will go apeshit.

Exactly, the funny part about this ICT crap is that it will probably get reverse engineered within a year and people who want to record 720/1080 content will be able to do so regardless, but they'll do it digitally with a computer, not by cabling directly to the player.

[BasicAir]

Settle down people, come on now.

I'm not happy about them saying the HD-DVD addon, FOR NOW MS hasn't made an HDMI cable for it, but I'm not surprised and I stress the fact that this is just the decision as of RIGHT NOW.

Besides, I'm an A/V enthusiast and always have been, done years of advanced tech support for DirecTV about HTDV signals and troubleshooting and such, and so on and so forth, and I can tell you that a 720P movie or a 1080i movie on a good component cable (YPbPr/YCbCr) such as the Monster component gold-plated component cable for the 360 versus that of a potential HDMI cable you wouldn't notice much of a difference at all.

Even at 1080P, when HD-DVD starts releasing movies in 1080P (for now they still aren't, and I haven't researched WHY they don't want to yet, but they just haven't yet even though they can and have even said it would be easilly done), you won't notice hardly much of a difference at all.

Let's take the Xbox 360 component cables that come with it, though -- they are not high quality. Since every video cable except DVI and HDMI are analog cables, the higher-quality the cable is the better your picture will be. This means if I put back on my 360 component cables made by MS that came with my 360 and took off my Monster ones, sure, I'd notice a slight quality downgrade. Would it be much? No, and as a matter of fact the average person, especially adults, wouldn't tell hardly any difference even if you put two 360's side by side with one running the stock component cables and the other the Monster component cables.

Being such a big A/V enthusiast, however, I can tell the difference with my Monster component 360 cables because I look for differences and such. To me, the minor difference is worth the money, but to others it's not.

Now let's say you have one of the standalone Toshiba HD-DVD standalone units already (whether it's the $500 or $700 model, it doesn't matter). Let's say you have two of them and two of the same 720P native television as well and are playing the same HD-DVD movie in each player and have both televisions, let's say 50", side-by-side. Let us say that one of them is running to the same model TV the best component cables on the market (again, which is analog) and the other is running HDMI (same as DVI but also carries a DD5.1 signal with it, too - and - this is not analog, but digital as mentioned earlier).

How much of a difference would you see between these two side-by-side 720P TV's? It would be minimal. I've done tests like this (not with 1080P -- yet) but with every other resolution so I know what I'm talking about. The same would go for 1080i. The difference, if estimated, would be something well under a 10% quality difference in the component cables.

Let's say you have cheaper component cables, though. Ahhhh.... now you'll notice maybe up to a 10% difference or so. Why? Again, it's as simple as this: Component cables are analog and not digital. Even if you had the cheapest HDMI cable on the market and compare it to the most expensive HDMI cable on the market, you won't see a difference in quality and the same goes for DVI; why? They're digital-signal carrying cables, not analog like every other cable type.

This just goes to show many things come in to play. Even other things such as if the HDTV set is plasma, DLP, projection, or LCD... it all makes a difference, though it's minimal.

So what am I trying to get at? Sure an HDMI cable to my 50" DLP from the new HD-DVD addon when it comes out would provide a better picture than the component cables, but not by much at all - but definately more if you have cheap component cables like the ones that came with the 360.

Also let's not get off the point of the subject -- There is still a very good chance that MS will release a HDMI cable down the road (if it's possible somehow since the 360 does all the processing -- I don't personally know).

High-quality, gold-plated component cables versus cheapo-deapo ones like what comes with the 360 will show a better picture and the 24 karat gold ones by Monster really surprised me with the quality difference on the 360 and that's saying a lot since given all my previous experiments comparing this and that, this cable, that cable, this resolution, that resolution, this TV, that TV -- I expected to notice a difference, sure, but the Monster 360 component cables give me such a nicer picture than the MS component cables, and again -- when and if I get (if I can) an HDMI cable for my HD-DVD addon for my 360, I guarantee you there won't be much of a difference -- seriously. You would honestly have to put it side by side with another, replica setup to really see the difference and again I would say it'd be under 10% in quality which is hardly noticable, anyway.

MY BOTTOM LINE: It shouldn't make much of a difference AND, if MS can do it, they WILL come out with an HDMI cable for the drive because they just aren't that stupid NOT to.

God Bless and thanks for your time.
I know I'll get some people disagreeing but hey, I don't care -- I have the hands on experience and have done side-by-sides too many times to count and I know I haven't said anything untruthful in this entire post.

-Air (see sig for contact)

[ebrunn]

if that back-door agrement is correct, then by 2010, their will be new systems out by then with their own little HDMI ports (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

[sick_mate_xbox]

im just going to hang around for a standalone HD-DVD player i think.

[Jman232]

I get full HDTV (1080i) programming from my cable provider. I have a TV, which supports both HDMI and Component cables. I went and bought an HDMI cable and couldn't tell a difference between the two in 480, 720, and 1080. $60 waste if you ask me. Oh and the difference between HDMI and DVI is the connector of course and HDMI has a sound signal. But I use optical for my sound on my xbox1, 360, and digital HD set top box (cable) so big deal. They also make cables and connectors for transition between HDMI and DVI. As far as I know the signal on the component is digital. I use a single RCA cable (orange) for digital sound on my DVD player. Xbox1 supports up to 1080i(Entr Mtrx1 is the only game I know that plays in 1080), Xbox 360 also with a lot more games in 1080 (look at the back of the game box to see which formats the game supports). Also, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't we watching DVD's at 720 right now?
 SD-480 ?D-720 (I think it's ED) and HD-1080 are the resolutions- horizontal pixels that is the standard for digital television. Please correct me if I have any of my info incorrect and please cite your reference. Thanks and I don't really see what the big deal is. The cable and video switch is way cheaper for component anyway. DVD wars, and cable wars in the backround... Just have to wait it out to see who wins. I don't want a player that turns out to be like the old beta-VHS or the video disks (early 80's with the guts that stay inside the player).