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[puppydg68]

QUOTE(sunnyd71 @ Mar 4 2006, 03:04 PM)

There was also an article that said to manufacture Blu-Ray companies will have to spend millions to upgrade facilities and technologies, with all new equipment. But HD-DVD requires minor upgrades costing only a few hundred thousand dollars. That can make a huge difference in disk cost. Sony said Blu-ray disks will be $20-$30 in wholesale, which means the consumer will be paying much more. DVDs in wholesale are roughly $10 or less I believe. Also M$ can make windows only support HD-DVD or if they really want to please consumers make the upgrade for the 360 also be able to connect to a computer though this might create problems with encryption.

I'm not buying either for at least another year and then will probably just go with Blu-ray since it will come with the ps3 I'm probably going to buy.

Blu-ray makes the PS3 a no brainer, because it will be your cheapest stand-alone Hi-def player when it comes out, nevermind that it can play games. That is what sony and the studios are counting on, this is why they will take a large bath on the cost of the ps3.   Remember for sony, it's not just the licensing for the games with ps3, it's also having licensing for the movies..  Remember Sony owns Sony picutres and MGM so they already own part of the movie biz.    They will have 2 of the largest industries, licensing through them for their hi-def blu-ray and ps3 gaming technology.  For some reason Bill Doesn't like this, and of course CAN'T support blu-ray

The pricing of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD is way over hyped.   It's a matter of dollars..  here is the official line from the Sony Blu-ray Launch titles. "The studio will debut eight titles on 5/23 - 50 First Dates, The Fifth Element, Hitch, House of Flying Daggers, A Knight's Tale, The Last Waltz (via MGM), Resident Evil: Apocalypse and xXx, which should all sell for around $25 each."

But it's not going to be a big matter in the long run about going to the store and chosing between a $25 copy of Aliens on Blu-ray and a $23 HDTV.  There will be no $23 HDTV because fox doesn't support HD-DVD or MGM pictures.   Some people are losing sight of this.

[VinnySem]

One of the features I like about HD-DVD which MS is pushing is managed copying. Take a movie you own, archive it to your HTPC server, and voila! every extender node on your network can watch it... imagine that, legal rips!

[icefreon]

Ok, here is my concern. With the AACS security system on HD-DVD & Blu-Ray Disks, it states that any piece of equipment that has component video out will be down res'd to 960x540p and not the full HD 1920X1080. So if MS is going to add an HD-DVD external drive on the 360, are they going to add another video cable that has HDMI or DVI output on it that is HDCP compliant??? If not then all the hype on a HD-DVD drive is crap and all the HD will be down res'd.

[Disco_Gee]

QUOTE(VinnySem @ Mar 4 2006, 07:46 PM)

One of the features I like about HD-DVD which MS is pushing is managed copying. Take a movie you own, archive it to your HTPC server, and voila! every extender node on your network can watch it... imagine that, legal rips!

Meh. I'd rather just crack the copy protection and be the one to decide how many bakups of my movies I make, and where I play them.

[bubbathemaster]

Dunno what this bullshit news is doing on Xbox-Scene. Trully, that ain't serious. Man, the newsers aint supposed to be some sort of MS fanboys... and that what appeared to me when I read this crap.

[The Bat]

So if I buy one of the two new DVD formats, I'll be able to watch super high resolution versions of the Dukes of Hazard movie, unless I'd prefer to watch super high definition versions of A Knight's Tale (loved by David Manning) or Resident Evil: Apocalypse, in which case I'd have to get the other type of player?  What a dilemma.  

Even with Sony owning both Blu-Ray and some major movie studios, it would seem that there'll be reluctance at supporting unproven movie formats like what we've seen with UMD movies.  An inexpensive HD-DVD drive for the 360, like in the $75-$99 range, and the PS3 supporting Blu-Ray movies out of the box might encourage some to pick up a few movies in the new format for the hell of it, but that alone might not be enough to provide incentive to the movie studios.

Those with a HDTV instead of a CRT TV won't flinch as much at having to spend a few hundred dollars more for the cheapest player.  If a majority of HDTV owners want to take a plunge on a non-standard new format, and they purchase as many new movies as possible in that format, that'll probably be the incentive which the studios need.  But even if that does happen, the split between the formats and their consumer support will likely be too close to 50/50 to call a winner.

The only prediction I can make is that this format war is going to be long and messy.  In fact, I might even have an HDTV by then.

[Ahasver]

See this is a Massive article of mis information. the fact is Blu-ray only needs single layer to put out a 25 gig disc. and as for the person who said they haven't even made a double layer yet... well WRONG again since they have already made 4 layer versions that hold 200 gigs. I did a lot of research on blu-ray Vs HD-DVD the fact is for most applications Blu-ray will be the better format. You lose sight of the computer companies backing the format. Why would i want a crappy 15 gig single layer HD DVD when i can get a 25 gig single layer blu-ray to burn my files on ?

Blu-ray has by far more movie support and exclusives than HD DVD. currentely there are no companies leaving the blu-ray camp. the only company that supposidly did HP is actually STILL on the Blu-ray side they are just supporting both formats now.

and the ELITE Blu-ray player for 1800$.. how many fools use their DVD players to play CDs anyway? thats a stupid argument. i don't think my DVD player has EVER seen a CD in its life. and i have 5 DVD players around the house including my computers.

[Lifter]

I can't believe how lame people are over this thing.  First off, this article is complete BS.  Calling Blu-Ray "Beta-Ray" pretty much killed any speck of credibility this guy might have had.  Why do people become fans of particular video disc formats and cheer them on, bash the other guy, etc?

There will be no winner in this format war.  None.  There will be a stalemate and at some point, every high-def disc player will playback both formats.  Movies on Sony Pictures Entertainment will always be Blu-Ray, and they'll never give up on it.  

As for people's personal preference, I just don't get it.  Nobody knows what the prices are going to be like.  What is known is that Blu-Ray is BETTER.  Now I'm not a "fan" of one or the other - it's not a matter subjective opinion.  Blu-Ray holds more space.  That is the only thing that matters to us consumers.  You can argue that price matters, but I say it's all artificial.  You think 2 years from now, BR discs will cost more than HD-DVD (or vice-versa)?  Uh-huh.  Sure.  I'm not talking about manufacturing costs or other things that have nothing to do with anyone here.  I'm talking about what it costs you the consumer.

Price is always artificial.  Doesn't matter one bit to us that one format may be cheaper than the other.  Just because one format will end up costing 13 cents to produce vs. 10 cents - they're still going to charge $15-$40 for these things based on whatever the market allows them to charge.

I just can't stand all these idiots pretending like they're industry insiders and that any of these issues affect them whatsoever.  You are a CONSUMER.  That's it.  All you should care about is how much space it holds, when it's coming out, and how much will it cost.  The latter two are up in the air but eventually they will both be available, and they will both cost YOU THE CONSUMER the same amount of money.  You think Best Buy is going to charge more for movies on BR vs. movies on HD-DVD?  Not a frickin chance.  But we already know how much space each one holds.

I hate Sony's proprieter gulag as well.  The MiniDisc, the Memory Stick, movies on PSP, going way back to Betamax.  But they are making a superior product.  End of story.  And I don't care who wins because nobody will.  Both formats will continue to exist and customers will have disc players that will play both formats - so it will be transparent to them.

[ferrari_rulz_02]

QUOTE(Lifter @ Mar 5 2006, 06:38 PM)

Both formats will continue to exist and customers will have disc players that will play both formats - so it will be transparent to them.

good point. if it comes to it that neitehr party wills tep down, and we have two HD formats, then we will get players that will ply both. they both use the same type of laser, aso it wont take long to get players on teh market that will read cd/dvd/hd-dvd/blu-ray.

[pcfreakx]

This topic is always so loaded with FUD it is unbelievable.  First of all let me get some facts straight:

The current X360 (of which I own one so I am not an Anti-MS zealot) DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SUPPORT HDMI/HDCP.  That must be implemented at the firmware of the video controller.  Simply not possible.   And I can tell you that there is word that MS will have to make another version of the X360 to even support HDMI.  So if you own an X360 now you are outta luck either way.  The announcement at CES was purely distractionary to disrupt the Blu-Ray buzz at CES.  If it werent' for MS, HD-DVD would already be dead.  Out of the 6 major studios, 5 support Blu-ray.  2 that were exclusive to HD-DVD (Paramount and Warner Bros) have moved to support both leaving ONLY ONE studio exclusive to HD-DVD (Universal).  If you made a percentage to represent the currently available DVD movie library, HD-DVD would only have 30% of all available titles while Blu-Ray would be able to boast 90% of all the available library currently on DVD.  

Let's talk about price.  Am I the only one that remembers that Toshiba first announced the HD-DVD player would be $1000 and it would only do HD quality via encrypted HDMI?  Now that it seems like Blu-Ray is gonna kill them (and btw, Gartner, Forrester and other research groups have all predicted BLu-ray will be the dominant format) the prices for their first players have dropped to $500 and $800.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.  And HP softened their stance to supposedly support both formats cause MS put significant pressure on them (this comes from an HP insider I've spoken with - not made up).  Disney and MS co-developed the iHD layer that HD-DVD uses and MS/HP are the only ones complaining that it isn't in the BLu-Ray spec - not even Disney cares that much about that.  Of course Blu-Ray uses Java as their layer which is the main reason MS wants it gone.  Furthermore, anti-MS sentiment in the Blu-Ray camp have led all of those partners to shy away from MS's VC-1 (WMV9) codec and instead use MPEG2 or H.264/AVC/MPEG4-Part 10.  This is purely cause of MS's heavy handed tactics in this part of the industry.  And while we are on price, it is important to keep perspective.  The $1800 model that everyone uses as an example is NOT the same as the model Toshiba is offering.  If you think a Pioneer elite player that plays Blu-Ray, streams multimedia formats over a network with the Digital Network Architecture protocol (WMA, MP3 . . .) and puts out all video at up to true 1080p, is the same as toshiba's plain jane player with 1080i output you are nuts.  Keep in mind that HDMI version 1.3 that will support 1080p hasn't even been ratified so this is a significantly new thing they are doing.  And every Blu-Ray player on the floor (except for Samsung's first model) supports true 1080p. NONE OF THE HD-DVD PLAYERS SUPPORT 1080P.  And many TV's this year will support true 1080p in.  The Blu-Ray camp have gone after a significantly different level of video performance.  1080/24psf (profressive segmented frames) is the format which hollywood digitally archives their films and that same quality will be delivered on the first Blu-Ray players.

As far as external drives go, Samsung showed an external Blu-Ray drive for PC's that should launch around $500.  That is in the same ballpark as the HD-DVD external drives that are expected to ship for $500.  You think MS is gonna sell a $500 add-on to a $300 console?!?!?  You think they will subsidize the cost of an external and sink more into debt on the xbox division just so you can watch movies?  And the AACS forum (the copy protection scheme used by BOTH CAMPS) recently ruled that studios can put a flag on the disc that MUST FORCE THE ANALOG OUTPUTS to 960x540p - 1 quarter the true rez of the disk and only slightly better than DVD.  You gonna spend $500 for slighly better than DVD?  Or are you gonna buy a new version of the 360 ($300) to support the encrypted digital out and then the $500 add on to get the full resolution?  Wow, $800 after my intitial $400 for a premium system doesn't see so cheap.  So if you know all the facts it is really commendable Sony is trying to deliver True 1080p over encrypted HDMI so people can play HD movies straight outta the box at full quality. MS screwed up, misread the market and didn't implement HDMI and now they have to try to fix it.  YOU WILL SEE ANOTHER REV OF THE 360 with this added.  Flame me now, but revisit this forum in 9 months and you can apologize.

And the FUD about layers just kills me.  Panasonic has shown a laptop slimline BDROM drive for a laptop that can read dual layers, why the hell do you think Sony can't do it for the PS3?!?!?  I've seen the drive, open and playing a frickin' movie at CES.  And MS's guys say they haven't even made dual layer discs yet outside of a lab.  Another piece of FUD.  TDK has said several times that they currently produce them and are ready to go.

Sure Blu-Ray is more expensive to make.  Did you cry when we went from Tape to CD?  How about VHS to DVD?  Those were much more significant differences and we seem to all have made it out just fine.  

Finally I want to mention another major advantage between the two formats - Speed.  The first movies authored on Blu-Ray wouldn't even play on HD-DVD.  Fifth Element will supposedly offer video at 35Mbps and 5.1 UNCOMPRESSED audio.  The max video bitrate for BDROM is 48Mbps which is way more than the total max bandwidth of HD-DVD at something in the mid 30's.  The BLu-Ray camp has demonstrated that they should be able to hit 10x within a couple of years.  This equates to 360Mbps of bandwidth which would be amazing to burn and read on a PC.  And yes, I am aware that you can get better efficientcy if you don't use MPEG2 and instead use AVC.  But, for the 2 years I've seen these demos at CES, the VC1 and AVC content looks far worse than MPEG2.  My opinion is this is purely because MPEG2 encoders and decoders are so much more mature.  It will certainly get better, but personally I want the best picture possible - I could care less what algorithm they use.

So, sorry to dissappoint, but the writing is on the wall.  Look at the supporters.  On the Blu-Ray side you have Dell, Apple, HP, Samsung and Sony.  That is something like 90% of all PC's shipped.  On the other side you have Hitachi, Toshiba and NEC - come on.  And let's look at electronics brands.  Sony, Sharp, Samsung, Mitsubishi, Pioneer on the Blu-Ray side.  HD-DVD - Toshiba, Sanyo and RCA.  Do you go to the store to buy an RCA or a Sanyo product?  Do you see these Sam's CLub brands doing well on the market vs the Pioneer or Sony players who are targeting early adopters specifically looking for HD capability?  It really is a shame that HD-DVD players won't be able to show the full 1080p functionality that will be on the discs.  They have definitely gone for the cheaper route.

Okay, if I'm off on some of the facts, please point it out and send a link to an article showing where I'm off.

[imagenius]

^^
Damn! I had to take a breath after that one. Good post

[BasicAir]

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Mar 3 2006, 11:57 PM)

Have you actually read anything on this? The BR drive in the PS3 reads 50GB Dual Layer BR discs, single layer, plus all the old DVDs. The HD-DVD technology, Dual Layer is only 30GB max, 15GB single layer. It's on every documentation on it. Not to mention, there was a press release about a month ago about one of the dvd-r publishing companies that they can make BR single layer dvds that have a single layer of BR and a single layer of DVD, it works in both standard DVD players and BR. And the BR players were announced at $900, wherever they got this $1,800, I'm quite curious. HD-DVD cannot handle triple, quad. etc. layer discs. That was the BR, they can stack layers on the BR (was also tied into a press release). HOWEVER, BR is slower reading than HD-DVD. Which can be a drawback on some, but I don't think it's going to be the deciding factor.

You are wrong on a few things.

HD-DVD can hold up to 3 layers. They can hold up to 45 GB on one side. They will be pumping out $30 HD movies that havd on one side of the disc 30GB HD versions of the movie and on the other side 8.5 GB 480P/480i versions of the movie.

This new article definately looks like BR is doomed.

[BasicAir]

Everyone should read this article about HD-DVD. It's not biased and it goes into a great deal of depth.

It doesn't even talk about Blu-Ray, really, it's strictly an article, more or less about HD-DVD. At least, probably until they update it to a version 2.0 of the article or something which they may do. I don't know.


http://editorials.te...ode-I-HD-DVD/p1


ESPECIALLY pay attention to pagees 3 and 4 if you only want to read all the technical information on the HD-DVD.

You'll even see cool pictures like this of the 15GB / 30GB / 45 GB discs:


http://media.teamxbo...hree_hddvds.jpg


It's a very great read.

By the way, I am planning on buying tge HD-XA1 by Toshiba ($799.99) and the HD-A1 ($499.99) HD-DVD players that are going to be released by Toshiba this month so within 3-3.5 weeks it'll be available.

Crutchfield.com, Amazon.com, BestBuy.com and Best Buy stores and other stores are already taking pre-orders. It's probably going to sell out right away.

It should be mentioned NO retail store I know of, personally, except possible high-end ones that are regional and not in every state (like Ultimate Electronics here in the U.S.) will be carrying the higher-end one.

If you want more info on the different versions (there really isn't much of a difference so I'm surprised the prise difference is so much more) goto Toshiba.com or Crutchfield.com, etc. and look at the details of 'em both.

I'm buying them to sell on eBay for profit.

[Roland]

My kudos to Lifter and pcfreakx...some great information in your posts (in support of Blu-Ray).  Also compliments to BasicAir for another fine post (in support of HD-DVD).  One thing the Xbox-scene article DOESN'T mention (which many posters in this thread have mentioned) is the draconian level of copy protection being implemented in BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (which in large part is responsible for the delays in getting Blu-Ray standalone players to market and thus the PS3 as well)...and don't blame Sony or Toshiba either (as least not entirely).  The following link from IGN.com makes it all very clear...all the early adopters who bought a High-Def TV? You (and I) are ALL screwed    because Sony and Toshiba are letting high-level Hollywood studio executives control the market (here's hoping that the potential market is still-born if Sony/Toshiba/MS won't stand up for their customer's rights not to be screwed just because their customers were early adopters who bought High-Definition televisions...wait isn't that an oxymoron like military intelligence...Sony/Toshiba/MS and great personal service?   ) ==>

http://gear.ign.com/articles/691/691408p1.html

You think copy protection in the past was bad?  As least you didn't have to invest in a whole new graphics card/TV/monitor etc.  Hollywood (along with Sony and Toshiba and MS) deserve to choke to death on their greed.  And let's get one thing straight...MS and Sony are both heartless corporate machines out to increase their bottom line.  Just because I might respect them doesn't mean I like them or worship them like a bunch of the fanboys who like to post here (and at PS3Scene.com).

In the end I think Lifter is closest to the truth...all players (probably by 2007) will play both formats...neither side will "win"...they will just split the market and confuse/annoy consumers.

[mikedavis2838]

QUOTE(pcfreakx @ Mar 5 2006, 05:59 PM)

This topic is always so loaded with FUD it is unbelievable.  First of all let me get some facts straight:

The current X360 (of which I own one so I am not an Anti-MS zealot) DOES NOT AND WILL NOT SUPPORT HDMI/HDCP.  That must be implemented at the firmware of the video controller.  Simply not possible.    You think MS is gonna sell a $500 add-on to a $300 console?!?!?  Y

Alright, first off the external drive can have HDMI output itself, no need for the video out on the xbox to be HDMI, and second of all do you think that the drive sony is putting in cost them $500. The standalone drives have to have lots more parts than the drives they are using. It may have been Kenny boy that said the ps3 will do all the the proccesing so no need for all the extra stuff. The same thing will happen with the 360, it will have the ability to be priced much cheaper that any stand-alone HD-DVD drive because the 360 will do all the processing.

Also i have not heard that movies will be recorded in 1080p and downconverted to for tv's that don't support it. I had thought it was the other way around. Can i have a link?