Print

[astr4twin]

*UPDATE* [2011-11-14 04:12PM UTC]
There is still a lot of analysis to do. Unlike the changes to the dae.bin in the previous updates, this time around the changes aren’t so simple. In addition to possibly having to re-burn/re-press, accommodating the changes has a ripple effect across XBC, abgx360, other associated/internal tools, as well as potentially the fw itself. Right now it’s too early to make any definitive statements. It should be clarified in the original post where mention was made that “the drive fw’s are not affected” — this was not in reference to c4eva’s fw, but rather to the ofw re-flashing of non-updated drives. The fw versions those drives get updated to has not changed in this update (e.g. Lite-On phats to 02510C, and Lite-On slim 9504 to 0272). The team appreciates your patience. More concrete info about what these changes entail will be posted in the days ahead as analysis progresses.

[filletofish]

QUOTE(dawidkk @ Nov 13 2011, 11:22 PM)

Ever seen how retail discs are being made? It's all burnt initially by laser. The difference is that this "burner" can write any type of binary code to a disc. ECC corection codes, TOC etc. can be inserted to a disc not by laser firmware itself but by its software in initial image preparation. Laser can do whatever you "tell him straight to do" only if you do it in low-level code.

eg. bad sectors are not something which your drive can't read, but can't interpret logically due to wrong corrections added by a system software- not by the laser. You can't burn bad sectors to a disc because your firmware is unable to do it. furthermore you cant burn whole sector of zeros cause your firmware will always add extra byte of correction to an every single byte.  

other words: we need a firmware which is making full rip of disc - not only data but whole data sectors with all its redundancy - bit by bit. All data-readed corrections should be done by software on ripped image- not by a firmware (non scratched retail discs never have any "Parity Outer Failures" which require extra sector read)
And of course a burning software for a (low-level) firmware which is burning all data just without any other "internal" modifications.

It is possible but not easy to do. Ask c4eva how he fooled drive to burn 8.7GB to 8.5 disc. You could force drive to write DL 10GB to a SL 4.7 disc with a success response and guess what...after all your burner would be still working.

Sorry for bad english.  

Biggest load of gibbering rubbish i've read for quite a while mate.

Bad sectors have been used for more than 10 years as a form of copy protection (Starting in the original pc copy protection called SafeDisk from Macrovision wayyyyyy back). They used bad sectors for the first 10,000\20,000 sectors, basically if you had a Liteon cd writer you could read the bad sectors as bad sectors and write them as bad sectors too. Some writers would automatically "correct" them.

The only special thing here was writing in "RAW" mode. This was 10 years ago though, things have moved on a LONG way since then. So your argument would make sense 10 years ago....slightly...I say slightly because that is only for PC games, where the reading hardware would not be consistent (different cd drives being used to read disk obviously) so they could only use the readable area on a disk that could be read by *any* normal cd reader.

Consoles are different. Take the Playstation 1, it's disks had an area with a signature in that could not be read or written by a CD writer, this means ANY cd writer - it was physically impossible - because the signature was in an area that a cd writer couldn't move it's head to write the data.

Even the "silver" stamping factories in thailand couldn't reproduce it!!!!

Sure you could get "silvers", but they still needed a mod chip belive it or not.

Later on in the Playstation 1 lifecycle, disks started being released that had data in the subchannel, so more advanced writing methods were needed (or simply a ppf patch to remove the protection in the exe), these "advanced writing methods" were called "DAO96", and also being able to write subchannel data without correcting it automatically in firnware of the writer - NOTE you still needed a mod chip!

Any console from then on uses similar technology as a base.

Basiclly, you're talking rubbish - complete rubbish.

The firmware C4E has hacked is simply to allow more bits to be in each sector on a disk - much like an audio cd has less error correction bits and hence a 700MB CD can hold 800MB of data by using less bits for error correction. This is why when an audio cd gets a small scratch it's often audible when you'd think it wouldn't be.

The Dreamcast back in the old days, once it got hacked had a similar thing, there was a program called "Disk Juggler" that could write DATA as an audio CD. GD-ROM disks were 1GB in size, so scene groups stripped out as much un needed data by downsampling video\audio and then burning it on a CD, you can overburn a CD so you could normally get about 820MB of on a 700MB CD. The reason the dreamcast could play copies isn't because the special signature could be written - it was because an audio track was placed in the first session on a CD that made the dreamcast think it was an audio cd, however data then followed...(i'm not certain on the details for this but in laymans terms, it's that).

Anyway, hope you feel suitably clued up now on these things. And please don't peddle that nonsene to anyone else.

[bubbafett4hire]

QUOTE(filletofish @ Nov 14 2011, 05:36 AM)

Biggest load of gibbering rubbish i've read for quite a while mate.

Bad sectors have been used for more than 10 years as a form of copy protection (Starting in the original pc copy protection called SafeDisk from Macrovision wayyyyyy back). They used bad sectors for the first 10,000\20,000 sectors, basically if you had a Liteon cd writer you could read the bad sectors as bad sectors and write them as bad sectors too. Some writers would automatically "correct" them.

The only special thing here was writing in "RAW" mode. This was 10 years ago though, things have moved on a LONG way since then. So your argument would make sense 10 years ago....slightly...I say slightly because that is only for PC games, where the reading hardware would not be consistent (different cd drives being used to read disk obviously) so they could only use the readable area on a disk that could be read by *any* normal cd reader.

Consoles are different. Take the Playstation 1, it's disks had an area with a signature in that could not be read or written by a CD writer, this means ANY cd writer - it was physically impossible - because the signature was in an area that a cd writer couldn't move it's head to write the data.

Even the "silver" stamping factories in thailand couldn't reproduce it!!!!

Sure you could get "silvers", but they still needed a mod chip belive it or not.

Later on in the Playstation 1 lifecycle, disks started being released that had data in the subchannel, so more advanced writing methods were needed (or simply a ppf patch to remove the protection in the exe), these "advanced writing methods" were called "DAO96", and also being able to write subchannel data without correcting it automatically in firnware of the writer - NOTE you still needed a mod chip!

Any console from then on uses similar technology as a base.

Basiclly, you're talking rubbish - complete rubbish.

The firmware C4E has hacked is simply to allow more bits to be in each sector on a disk - much like an audio cd has less error correction bits and hence a 700MB CD can hold 800MB of data by using less bits for error correction. This is why when an audio cd gets a small scratch it's often audible when you'd think it wouldn't be.

The Dreamcast back in the old days, once it got hacked had a similar thing, there was a program called "Disk Juggler" that could write DATA as an audio CD. GD-ROM disks were 1GB in size, so scene groups stripped out as much un needed data by downsampling video\audio and then burning it on a CD, you can overburn a CD so you could normally get about 820MB of on a 700MB CD. The reason the dreamcast could play copies isn't because the special signature could be written - it was because an audio track was placed in the first session on a CD that made the dreamcast think it was an audio cd, however data then followed...(i'm not certain on the details for this but in laymans terms, it's that).

Anyway, hope you feel suitably clued up now on these things. And please don't peddle that nonsene to anyone else.

+1

[Dale7]

QUOTE(DodgeM4s @ Nov 11 2011, 06:11 PM)

I dont think there has been any reports of bans from people using an xkey online yet.

QUOTE(bubbafett4hire @ Nov 11 2011, 06:41 PM)

EVERYONE CALM DOWN

1st) This is almost no different then every other time a new dash comes out with different AP2.5 data with the need for re-burning backups with proper info, many of you should expect this by now as we've gone through this how many times already.

2nd) Why would you opt to put a beta update on your flashed machine when you know almost every past update they have changed AP25 data as well as other hidden items and wonder why backups won't boot.

3rd) Everyone who's jumping the gun thinking this is a bad thing needs to remember that XBC isn't even fully done yet as the current version of XBC still can't burn XGD3 discs , and we are still waiting for a new ABGX beyond this new change.

Everyone take a pill or smoke somthing and relax!!! people are working on it and jumping to speculation is just going to put out bad information when we have no real facts yet other then a DAE table change and C4E saying we will need some new software
According to C4E he claims he knows of 2 already being banned using xkey

• c4eva Speaks!  automated irc logs, updated instantly whenever and wherever c4eva speaks
http://c4evaspeaks.com/


[2011-10-30 06:49PM UTC] #fw <c4eva> zoneout: all ode are not live safe, already had one banned
with xkey, rgh>ode, ode is expensive way of getting banned!


[2011-06-15 06:42AM UTC] #c4e <theJ3STeR> You watch the New x360Key Vid c4?
[2011-06-15 06:44AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> jester:yes, wont take MS long to make xkey a good door stop

[2011-06-15 06:47AM UTC] #c4e <soon> c4eva, why you are sure that xkex won’t be save on live?
[2011-06-15 06:47AM UTC] #c4e <soon> sorry mean xkey
[2011-06-15 06:48AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> soon:by its very nature the emulator is just that, an
emulator, and can be detected very easily

[2011-06-15 06:48AM UTC] #c4e <soon> with a new dash update it’s maybe also possible for m4 to
detect your fw
[2011-06-15 06:49AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> soon:soon:as fw is orig hardware,much harder to detect
[2011-06-15 06:50AM UTC] #c4e <Newb> ms can detect the diffrences between emulator and real and
we dont know if they can detect fw
[2011-06-15 06:50AM UTC] #c4e <[Athos]> the question is rather, would it be possible (in theory) to
make an emulator that is not detectable?
[2011-06-15 06:52AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> the problem you will have is MS will not just ban but stop the
game from booting offline, so it will be useless

_____________________________________



• All XGD3 (Xbox Game Disc 3) games are AP 2.5! This means are "Capable" of AP 2.5, but only those XGD3
games in the latest updated dae.bin file have been "Activated" for it!


• There are currently as of today "26" "Activated" AP 2.5 games! 6 of those are the XGD2, the rest are XGD3!



REFERENCES


The New System Update Faq - Scenyx Entertainment Community
http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=730311

AP25 FAQ by Defosho UPDATED 4th October 2011 - Team Xecuter
http://team-xecuter....ead.php?t=62153

The Ap25 Faq - In Depth And Updated For 13604 - Scenyx Entertainment Community
http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=728912

AP25 games list
https://spreadsheets...cF9JSWs3VmhBNXc

[filletofish]

QUOTE(Dale7 @ Nov 15 2011, 07:17 AM)

• c4eva Speaks!  automated irc logs, updated instantly whenever and wherever c4eva speaks
http://c4evaspeaks.com/
[2011-10-30 06:49PM UTC] #fw <c4eva> zoneout: all ode are not live safe, already had one banned
with xkey, rgh>ode, ode is expensive way of getting banned!
[2011-06-15 06:42AM UTC] #c4e <theJ3STeR> You watch the New x360Key Vid c4?
[2011-06-15 06:44AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> jester:yes, wont take MS long to make xkey a good door stop

[2011-06-15 06:47AM UTC] #c4e <soon> c4eva, why you are sure that xkex won’t be save on live?
[2011-06-15 06:47AM UTC] #c4e <soon> sorry mean xkey
[2011-06-15 06:48AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> soon:by its very nature the emulator is just that, an
emulator, and can be detected very easily

[2011-06-15 06:48AM UTC] #c4e <soon> with a new dash update it’s maybe also possible for m4 to
detect your fw
[2011-06-15 06:49AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> soon:soon:as fw is orig hardware,much harder to detect
[2011-06-15 06:50AM UTC] #c4e <Newb> ms can detect the diffrences between emulator and real and
we dont know if they can detect fw
[2011-06-15 06:50AM UTC] #c4e <[Athos]> the question is rather, would it be possible (in theory) to
make an emulator that is not detectable?
[2011-06-15 06:52AM UTC] #c4e <c4eva> the problem you will have is MS will not just ban but stop the
game from booting offline, so it will be useless

_____________________________________
• All XGD3 (Xbox Game Disc 3) games are AP 2.5! This means are "Capable" of AP 2.5, but only those XGD3
games in the latest updated dae.bin file have been "Activated" for it!
• There are currently as of today "26" "Activated" AP 2.5 games! 6 of those are the XGD2, the rest are XGD3!
REFERENCES
The New System Update Faq - Scenyx Entertainment Community
http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=730311

AP25 FAQ by Defosho UPDATED 4th October 2011 - Team Xecuter
http://team-xecuter....ead.php?t=62153

The Ap25 Faq - In Depth And Updated For 13604 - Scenyx Entertainment Community
http://forums.xbox-s...howtopic=728912

AP25 games list
https://spreadsheets...cF9JSWs3VmhBNXc

[DodgeM4s]

QUOTE(filletofish @ Nov 14 2011, 11:36 AM)

Biggest load of gibbering rubbish i've read for quite a while mate.

Anyway, hope you feel suitably clued up now on these things. And please don't peddle that nonsene to anyone else.

Good read and I didnt know someone has been banned using the x360key.

[Drefsab]

QUOTE(Master Reefed @ Nov 12 2011, 09:09 PM)

ya... easier if you dont mind soldering how many spots on that 200$ motherboard?

Yup 6 (phat) or 7 (slim) simple solder points, on a dirt cheap console to never have to worry about burning games again. Sure you stay off live but then you have to say off live with things like the xkey etc anyway.

If you can't solder those points you sure as hell shouldn't be doing an MRA hack or the Kamikaze hack, or soldering on a Sputnik. Sure soldering is not for everyone that's why you take it to someone who can solder have them install it and give them something for their time and effort.

Don't get me wrong I don't mind doing drive flashes for people but if MS were smart they will start doing these kinds of changes more and more often, people then have to reburn more often, and what with people having to use Verb's now its going to cost more and more money. How long will it be until people are spending so much on new disc's until they say sod it im either going to give up playing on live or buy originals (or both and have 2 box's like myself and many others do).

[HotKnife420]

QUOTE(Drefsab @ Nov 15 2011, 02:26 PM)

Don't get me wrong I don't mind doing drive flashes for people but if MS were smart they will start doing these kinds of changes more and more often, people then have to reburn more often, and what with people having to use Verb's now its going to cost more and more money. How long will it be until people are spending so much on new disc's until they say sod it im either going to give up playing on live or buy originals (or both and have 2 box's like myself and many others do).

 If MS were a small business, yes, they could do that all day (until they went out of business), but it all boils down to $$$. Microsoft isn't going to spend a bunch of money on something, only to throw money at it. Microsoft does see a spke in console sales when they have a banwave, but despite the fact that piracy has been possible on the 360 for almost it's entire life, Microsoft manages to have more developers and publishers than their competition. In order to keep publishers and developers happy, they need to take measures to at least make it harder to do something that may enable piracy (ie: drive security), so they can at least look like they're on top of things, but they're not going to go over-budget and keep paying people to come up with methods that will inevitebly fail, and in the end, still suffer the same "damages" they claim due to piracy.

 So from a business perspective, it's a necessary and redundant cost, but not exactly a high priority.

 Also, about the "having to use Verbs now" part - you can use other media. There's a guide on another forum that tells you how you can hack the BurnerMAX f/w to patch a different Media ID (ie: Ritek-04 for Memorex). FWIW, you can also burn on other media anyway (turn OPC off; try 2.4x), but I've heard mixed results. When I get my hands on some more off-brand crap I'll post my results

[danthaman673]

QUOTE(ruciz @ Nov 12 2011, 09:39 AM)

Another point, if it was 1:1 - you wouldn't need to modify the 360 in any way.

By the reports it seems like MS finally got the 'keyrolling' working in some fashion without modifying the drive's firmware.

Does being connected or disconnected from LIVE affect anything?

If M$ wanted to roll the key they could have done it any time,(actually they already added to the number of challenges ages ago) there are many reasons why they wont just add a whole lot or try to add 'secret' ones (some of those reasons are obvious some are not)

QUOTE(dradra @ Nov 12 2011, 03:04 PM)

I have a suggestion:

Calculating the angle from two different sectors in the disk will be practically infinite. But save the coordinates of every sector in the disk not. two doubles per every sector. With that information, it'll be possible to replay every angle. The storage needed will be ~1/128 the size of the DVD without compression.

And If the XBOX 360 DVD ROM is only capable of reading angles between sectors, and not positions, it's also possible mathematically (I Think) deduce the positions, from angle differences.

I've been saying this fer ages, but it's still thwarted by complexity amongst other things, mind you if they push us that far, I'm sure the formulas and methods will appear in a surprising amount of time XD .... But I guess that wont happen on this generation..... besides there are other ways

QUOTE(Spark @ Nov 12 2011, 05:25 PM)

I believe that all of the XGD3 titles use it. For some reason it never really took off for XGD2, never could quite understand the MS strategy on that actually.

 My guess was that M$ believed implementing ap2.5 on XGD2 was kinda a waste of time while we had the extra disc-space to store challenges, they wisely reclaimed the space before fully bringing it to bear.

QUOTE(dawidkk @ Nov 14 2011, 06:52 AM)

Ever seen how retail discs are being made? It's all burnt initially by laser. The difference is that this "burner" can write any type of binary code to a disc. ECC corection codes, TOC etc. can be inserted to a disc not by laser firmware itself but by its software in initial image preparation. Laser can do whatever you "tell him straight to do" only if you do it in low-level code.

eg. bad sectors are not something which your drive can't read, but can't interpret logically due to wrong corrections added by a system software- not by the laser. You can't burn bad sectors to a disc because your firmware is unable to do it. furthermore you cant burn whole sector of zeros cause your firmware will always add extra byte of correction to an every single byte.  

other words: we need a firmware which is making full rip of disc - not only data but whole data sectors with all its redundancy - bit by bit. All data-readed corrections should be done by software on ripped image- not by a firmware (non scratched retail discs never have any "Parity Outer Failures" which require extra sector read)
And of course a burning software for a (low-level) firmware which is burning all data just without any other "internal" modifications.

It is possible but not easy to do. Ask c4eva how he fooled drive to burn 8.7GB to 8.5 disc. You could force drive to write DL 10GB to a SL 4.7 disc with a success response and guess what...after all your burner would be still working.

Sorry for bad english.  

I agree with the earlier comments, I don't think you don't understand how Xbox AP works,(among other things) but you are kinda right(in one regard.. kinda) in that it may be possible (in theory) to get a burner to burn angles with some types of media (although I doubt anyone would go to the trouble/expense to get it to work) If a drive laser can read an angle then in theory it should be able write at that angle, perhaps a media of higher density could be used in a different manner and store the angle(s) over a larger area of the security sector. I wouldn't write it off entirely just yet, however unlikely it is, I argued with numbers of ppl who said it would be impossible to ever burn XGD3 etc.. (not that this is the same thing in any way, but given FW can translate the way things are decoded, and that angles are still converted ADC style... anyway you get what I'm saying..... Blurays hold a lot.. we may get in to hybrid systems if need be, if there really is that much data that can't be emulated based on 3d laser-scan in XBC of the sector, and I'm not convinced that that info can't be at least drastically condensed in a  formulaic/3D EMU type of manner, then maybe (if needed) we could go to a piggy-back chip that supplies just that SS data to ANY challenge either with an online cahcing system or USB HDD storage.. hell maybe we'll end up with 2 discs for every game 1 XGD3 and one HDRW/BlUrayRW that just holds SS info (lol) .. This stuff about xkey being door-stop soon? surely they didn't build it that poorly? Perhaps we can pray for open-source ODDemu finally (or at least free) for offline use?  Why not scene-release hybrid? I think C4eva does excellent work and has been at it for a while, I guess it would not surprise me entirely that ODDemu's are a ways off live-safe.


Brgds

[Exobex]

QUOTE(dradra @ Nov 15 2011, 07:41 PM)

I don't like to bash C4Eva comments... But... how many people got banned because using C4Eva firmware? A lots more than 1. If x360key got only one ban, then is the way to go. Also i don't like C4Eva bashing emu products without any proof. He only says it's detectable, he doesn't say how.

Exactly. If someone's been banned using an X360key can they please stand up and be counted, otherwise this remains a statement that should be tagged as, as Wikipedia would put it, [citation needed], along with the tales from the man in a pub whose mate's got a hacked Sky box but that for some reason you'll never get to see.

I don't have an ODE nor any links to their development, but I, no doubt like many others, am watching their performance with interest. It will be interesting to see what MS pulls out of the hat this forthcoming update, and whether it detects, blocks or renders inoperable ANY circumvention, be it RGH, ODE or modified drive firmware.

I personally think the Wasabi one, with its (at present) reliance on Microsoft's built-in media player for ISO selection, is on particularly shaky ground.

[filletofish]

QUOTE(danthaman673 @ Nov 15 2011, 10:38 PM)

If M$ wanted to roll the key they could have done it any time,(actually they already added to the number of challenges ages ago) there are many reasons why they wont just add a whole lot or try to add 'secret' ones (some of those reasons are obvious some are not)
I've been saying this fer ages, but it's still thwarted by complexity amongst other things, mind you if they push us that far, I'm sure the formulas and methods will appear in a surprising amount of time XD .... But I guess that wont happen on this generation..... besides there are other ways
 My guess was that M$ believed implementing ap2.5 on XGD2 was kinda a waste of time while we had the extra disc-space to store challenges, they wisely reclaimed the space before fully bringing it to bear.
I agree with the earlier comments, I don't think you don't understand how Xbox AP works,(among other things) but you are kinda right(in one regard.. kinda) in that it may be possible (in theory) to get a burner to burn angles with some types of media (although I doubt anyone would go to the trouble/expense to get it to work) If a drive laser can read an angle then in theory it should be able write at that angle, perhaps a media of higher density could be used in a different manner and store the angle(s) over a larger area of the security sector. I wouldn't write it off entirely just yet, however unlikely it is, I argued with numbers of ppl who said it would be impossible to ever burn XGD3 etc.. (not that this is the same thing in any way, but given FW can translate the way things are decoded, and that angles are still converted ADC style... anyway you get what I'm saying..... Blurays hold a lot.. we may get in to hybrid systems if need be, if there really is that much data that can't be emulated based on 3d laser-scan in XBC of the sector, and I'm not convinced that that info can't be at least drastically condensed in a  formulaic/3D EMU type of manner, then maybe (if needed) we could go to a piggy-back chip that supplies just that SS data to ANY challenge either with an online cahcing system or USB HDD storage.. hell maybe we'll end up with 2 discs for every game 1 XGD3 and one HDRW/BlUrayRW that just holds SS info (lol) .. This stuff about xkey being door-stop soon? surely they didn't build it that poorly? Perhaps we can pray for open-source ODDemu finally (or at least free) for offline use?  Why not scene-release hybrid? I think C4eva does excellent work and has been at it for a while, I guess it would not surprise me entirely that ODDemu's are a ways off live-safe.
Brgds

Nothing of what dawidkk has any basis in reality whatsoever. The AP2.5 data CAN be written to a dvd, and it can be stored in it's entierity. It's got nothing to do with 3d lasers, deathstars, or luke skywalker just in case you were going to make another set of unfounded theories.

I'm only playing, but if you're interested in understanding have a look on google with the search term "twinpeak" or "twin peak sectors", also have a search on terms mentioned here http://en.wikipedia....ion_Measurement

QUOTE(bubbafett4hire @ Nov 16 2011, 03:30 AM)

If I'm not mistaken xkey has stated no XBL use yet on their site and in demo videos. Support for XBL was to be added later in upcoming updates according to their site, so yes if someone was banned using a ODE please stand up but in the same respects the xkey team even stated a ban was possible at this current time.

As far as your comment about the Sky being opened....guess you can't find a CAM or IKS service to use cause it is open and has been for some time.

OT sorry but i'm quite sure Sky is water tight as it's always been, edit....I see you're referring to card sharing. That's not hacked though in any sense of the word.

[bubbafett4hire]

QUOTE(filletofish @ Nov 15 2011, 09:52 PM)

OT sorry but i'm quite sure Sky is water tight as it's always been, edit....I see you're referring to card sharing. That's not hacked though in any sense of the word.

I stand corrected , was thinking of triple dragon and dreambox STB's with the sky cards, but now memory serves those still needed official cards and had to be updated by official receivers if I remember correctly could be wrong. I know card sharing is not a hack if anything it's a joke and a great way for grandmas to get hit when servers get captured. I've been playing with charlie for more then few years now and dave before that and have never supported IKS fully nor will I ever not safe enough for my tastes.

[AarunJon]

Nicely put there  

Always interesting to see alternative methods though!

[BoNg420]

I feel bad for those who bought xk3y and other such devices since they need DAE.bin...

[BaDHaBiTt]

QUOTE(BoNg420 @ Nov 17 2011, 08:23 PM)

I feel bad for those who bought xk3y and other such devices since they need DAE.bin...

Well, so do CFW Einstein.