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[KAGE360]

QUOTE(ikecomp @ Jan 30 2006, 02:46 PM)

I must say I agree with the people who are complaining. If you can't do it don't advertise it.

while that is true to an extent, it was a technology demo.  the technology is still in the game but not to the exctent that they originally wanted.  its done all the time in the industry, so i dont think it will stop anytime soon.  i think us gamers should learn to take things like this into consideration for future titles so we dont get our hopes up to unrealistic levels.  like i said before, the effects are still in there but not to the level originally shown in the tech demo.

[ikecomp]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Jan 30 2006, 03:16 PM)

while that is true to an extent, it was a technology demo.  the technology is still in the game but not to the exctent that they originally wanted.  its done all the time in the industry, so i dont think it will stop anytime soon.  i think us gamers should learn to take things like this into consideration for future titles so we dont get our hopes up to unrealistic levels.  like i said before, the effects are still in there but not to the level originally shown in the tech demo.

Thats true and I'll probably still buy it but nonetheless I still have the right to be disappointed about some of of the features that were a major part of the demo but now are non-existent.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(jaskerzada006 @ Jan 30 2006, 03:23 PM)

Lately I've read a lot of suggestions to fellow gamers to take things into consideration and lower our expectations.  That's just a dressed up way of saying bend over and smile while you take it up the ass.  

I won't appologize for expecting roughly 4 times the eye candy from a machine with 4 times the power of it's predecessor.

its not lowering your expectations, its just having realistic expectations to begin with.  the evolution of technology isnt so simple of multiplying assets and expecting performance to be equal.  

and by your account, i would consider the "eye candy" in oblivion to be over 10 times that of morrowind not just 4 times.  so again whats there to bitch about now?

QUOTE(ikecomp @ Jan 30 2006, 03:24 PM)

Thats true and I'll probably still buy it but nonetheless I still have the right to be disappointed about some of of the features that were a major part of the demo but now are non-existent.

very true and no one is saying not to be let down, but atleast they still exist to some extent and arent taken out entirely.

[ikecomp]

Ahh well....All we can do now is wait and see

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(ikecomp @ Jan 30 2006, 03:48 PM)

Ahh well....All we can do now is wait and see

im only trying to stay on the positive side for a game that we all know will be a great experience regardless.

[RalliArtEvo]

while it is dissapointing, I'm still looking forward to this game and fully expect to be blown away by the experience of the game, not just how pretty the graphics are.

[Foe-hammer]

There still definently is normal mapping going on, just look at the prison walls.  I can detect it's wet, plastic look anywhere.

[shodanjr_gr]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Jan 30 2006, 10:16 PM)

while that is true to an extent, it was a technology demo.  the technology is still in the game but not to the exctent that they originally wanted.  its done all the time in the industry, so i dont think it will stop anytime soon.  i think us gamers should learn to take things like this into consideration for future titles so we dont get our hopes up to unrealistic levels.  like i said before, the effects are still in there but not to the level originally shown in the tech demo.

Im sorry to disagree but it was not a tech demo. The E3 videos were done on a version of the actual game... When they go public with those videos they set a (really high) standar they are expected to meet... and if they fail to do so, well, i believe we have every right to whine about it... i didnt spend 400 euros plus another 30 for the VGA cable to have features which "should" be becoming a standar in 360 games, pulled out 1+1/2 month before release...

[yaazz]

QUOTE(m_hael @ Jan 30 2006, 05:53 PM)

wow - so callous...

there is no "work right" with a game engine, its an amorphorous blob of code that molds to the game and hardwares requirements.

I know what a game engine is, I have been working on one for a while now. While technically you are right, the engine has to meet halfway with the softwares requirements. In order to meet the requirements of either field, there is always tweaking that can be done. Bethsoft said it themselves that with more time they could make their new, faster shadows work just as well as the originals

EDIT:

QUOTE

something else that should be mentioned is that those screenshots have a LOT more than shadows turned off.... its lost


soft shadows
shadows at ALL
normal mapping
specular mapping


all these add to the realise and contrast and its REALLY obvious when they are not there.

Hmm you do have a point there, my only gripe is the extreme leap from screenshot A to screenshot B, and it does look like everything was turned off

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(shodanjr_gr @ Jan 30 2006, 04:48 PM)

Im sorry to disagree but it was not a tech demo. The E3 videos were done on a version of the actual game... When they go public with those videos they set a (really high) standar they are expected to meet... and if they fail to do so, well, i believe we have every right to whine about it... i didnt spend 400 euros plus another 30 for the VGA cable to have features which "should" be becoming a standar in 360 games, pulled out 1+1/2 month before release...

when i see a video that highlights all of the various technologies used in the game (AI, shaders, textures, shadows, physics, and procedural synthesis).......umm yeah i think tech demo.  no matter what, until the game is running on final code pressed on a disk in front of your face it is considered a demo of some type.  the actual game is over 16 sq. miles i believe and that demo didnt seem anywhere that huge.  

again im sure they meant to keep everything up to that level but when all of the elements to the game finally were put together it didnt work out as planned.  the effects are still there just toned down.  and yes you can expect many features to be the norm for 360 games but like prevously stated this game is designed for the PC first, so if any blaim is going to be pointed it is to the limitations of that fact.

[Deftech]

Kage is on an Elder Scrolls Crusade  

[m_hael]

the technique they are using is fantastically more complex than most people realise and while it looks good it is something that would need massive amounts of control and LODing in order to use it on a large scale so yes they could optimize and get things going fast but in this case they are battling with more than just shadows... the AI has been struggling along too.

removing the shadows sped up the whole game.

ps - I work on an engine too, actually designing and writing the engine for xenon/ps3

[shodanjr_gr]

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Jan 31 2006, 12:06 AM)

when i see a video that highlights all of the various technologies used in the game (AI, shaders, textures, shadows, physics, and procedural synthesis).......umm yeah i think tech demo.  no matter what, until the game is running on final code pressed on a disk in front of your face it is considered a demo of some type.  the actual game is over 16 sq. miles i believe and that demo didnt seem anywhere that huge.  

Well, thats not the standar definition of the term tech demo... Usually a tech demo is just something that showcases new technologies.

from wikipedia:

QUOTE

A technology demo is a prototype, rough example or an otherwise incomplete version of a product, put together with the primary purpose of showcasing the idea, performance, method or the features of the product. They can be used as demonstrations to the investors, partners, journalists or even to potential customers in order to convince them of the viability of the chosen approach.

Yes, the video did that, but it did it on a normal game version (which was indeed under development). It was not a "target graphics" video (like the one EA showed for Madden). It was a version of the game, a few months before its release. Not your standard tech demo at the very least.

QUOTE

again im sure they meant to keep everything up to that level but when all of the elements to the game finally were put together it didnt work out as planned.  the effects are still there just toned down.  and yes you can expect many features to be the norm for 360 games but like prevously stated this game is designed for the PC first, so if any blaim is going to be pointed it is to the limitations of that fact.

Actually it was not designed for the PC first... that happened with Morrowind which was more or less ported over. Withthe 360 the 2 versions where made in parallel.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE(shodanjr_gr @ Jan 30 2006, 05:22 PM)

Well, thats not the standar definition of the term tech demo... Usually a tech demo is just something that showcases new technologies.

from wikipedia:
Yes, the video did that, but it did it on a normal game version (which was indeed under development). It was not a "target graphics" video (like the one EA showed for Madden). It was a version of the game, a few months before its release. Not your standard tech demo at the very least.
Actually it was not designed for the PC first... that happened with Morrowind which was more or less ported over. Withthe 360 the 2 versions where made in parallel.

the process isnt the same as with morowind that is true, but the game was not designed and built from the ground up for the 360.  PC was the home base of design and they developed both version in parallel from that, but it isnt the same as building the game specifically for the 360.  when the base design of the game is based on hardware argueably weaker then whats in the 360, then its safe to assume that you will run into limitations.  and while the video was presented in the game world, to me it was still a tech demo which doesnt always show new technology but also existing technology actually used in game.  it may not have been your standard tech demo, but all things considered, it was still a tech demo in the end.  not trying to argue, just trying to give a rational explenation.  besides, no one has seen the 360 version yet so maybe things will turn out better.  

[Hyper_Eye]

QUOTE(Ballz2TheWallz @ Jan 30 2006, 02:53 AM)

and when i talk about atmosphere i talk about this


vs the promised

http://img374.images...nap543954ng.png
granted the 2nd is a lower quality pic you get why its more immersive hopefully

I don't care what anyone says. That screenshot still looks damn good.

You guys are worried about nothing. This game is going to be fantastic no matter what. Some shadows aren't going to change the experience this game has to offer. And I don't know about you but I would prefer that the hardware in the 360 is gradually utilized as has been done with previous consoles. That means that the console can surprise me for a few years at least. There is a reason why consoles have game generations. The developers get better at devloping on the hardware and they continue to find ways to improve speed and visuals on the hardware. There is no difference between the hardware used for Max Payne and the hardware used for Half-Life 2 on the XBox. But it demonstrates how the development advanced from the first generation of games to the last generation of games. The 360 is just as powerful as it would seem to be. It is simply going to take time for the hardware to be truly utilized.

I also realise that you simply can't make everyone happy. For those people, get a PS3 when it comes out and see if that does it for you.