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[mc_365]

QUOTE(stopit33 @ Jul 31 2007, 11:55 PM)

Even if MS were afraid of loosing the format war with blue ray they still should have put a HD drive in there just for games if nothing ells

That would have added to the cost significantly.

200 for drive.
50 for larger HD
50 Digital video out.


Whats the purpose of putting the drive without hdmi connect and digital out circuitry?
If the used a HD dvd or BD they would need to decompress the game to the HD so now you need a larger HD becuase you will be competing for space with downloadable content.

At the time there had not been a major console release at over 300 USD retail. the sticker shock would have been tremendous.  From 299 USD to 700 USD.
I don't think the most Hard Core Gamer Halo Luvin Sony Hating Microsoft Fanboy could have stomached that.

PS3 had the benefit of coming out a year later, the 360 had already broken the price ceiling and the PS3 had BD but it still hasn't caught on.

Even with its lack of games,  I think the PS3 could have sold 3 times as many consoles if it cost 100 less.

[0794]

QUOTE(Mr Invader @ Jul 31 2007, 02:55 PM)

Because PGR4 is further away from us than Halo 3, Bungie seemed to have optimized the code and compressed the information pretty well. PGR4 is still in heavy production for the most part.

I'll wager that this isn't the last that we hear from PGR4's capacity problems, either they'll compress it more or find a different way around it. Bizarre is a very talented gaming studio.

i agree, but these news posts only cause more confusion about limits that don't exist on the 360...

[ConteZero76]

QUOTE(Nemo[ @ Aug 1 2007, 10:16 AM)

I quote from the post
"So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city."
So they couldn't fit all of the raw textures, and they solved the problem. Now WHY is everyone whining?

The thing that really gets me though is that for every time we hear this out of space crap, they aren't even close to fill the whole DVD.

The darkness 5.8 GB
Forza 2 6.4 GB
Overlord 6.7 GB

And that's the image size including overhead for iso format.

Same thing with the PS3, there are three games that are above the 8.4 GB of a dual layer DVD
Resistance Fall  of Man 15.4 GB, largest PS3 game out there.

Just to be blunt, as everyone can confirm every XBox360 dump is around 7,05Gb so the ceiling is around 6,7-6,8 Gb (the rest is data structures, the dancing circle in DVD video format and so on).
Oh, and most of PS3 games (that are more than 3) are over 8 Gb.

[pingrr]

I don't see what the big deal is.  Why can't they just put games on multiple discs?

[throwingks]

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 07:24 AM)

Just to be blunt, as everyone can confirm every XBox360 dump is around 7,05Gb so the ceiling is around 6,7-6,8 Gb (the rest is data structures, the dancing circle in DVD video format and so on).
Oh, and most of PS3 games (that are more than 3) are over 8 Gb.

You can't compare straight up like that. PS3 uses redundant data because blu-ray is slow, and the disks are nonregional. They include videos and audio for all regions, not just the specific region like Xbox360.

If you stripped Fall of Man to US only and no redundant data, what would the size be then?

QUOTE(pingrr @ Aug 1 2007, 10:04 AM)

I don't see what the big deal is.  Why can't they just put games on multiple discs?

I don't see the big deal either.

[dvsone]

QUOTE

Um, disc space isn't an issue - we just decided to do more cities with more environments, but without time of day. We have *double* the amount of locations/tracks than PGR3, we *could* have chose to keep the same amount but used different locations.

DVD space was never an issue, we just decided to use it this way rather than another. To be honest I don't understand the fuss, we're still going to knock your socks off.

Chris

http://www.bizarrecr...tart=40#p255926

I also found this:

QUOTE

The weather system is cited as the focus for Bizarre Creations this time around in PGR4. A series of screens were provided to backup the variety of lighitng/weather conditions.

[cerealkillajme]

Wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard a PS3 supporter use the words "soon", "future", "wait" or "coming"....

I'll take my gaming today rather than tomorrow. Hell we're almost already halfway to the next gen already (console gens are normally about 4-5 years and we're almost at 2 for the x360) and Sony is still only stepping up to the plate. I'm glad I have a 360 and not a PS3 as I get to enjoy games now, not tomorrow. And if the games are too big tomorrow, multiple discs is not a problem for me at all.

And I completely agree that M$ would have been stupid to add the HD-DVD in from launch. I feel they made the smart move and the sales stats prove it.

After seeing those screenshots of PGR4, I think I'll have to rent it when it's out (didn't really like the 3rd one much, so I'll rent the 4th and buy it later if I like it). Thanks for the pix dvsone  

[twistedsymphony]

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Aug 1 2007, 01:43 PM)

Wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard a PS3 supporter use the words "soon", "future", "wait" or "coming"....

I'll take my gaming today rather than tomorrow. Hell we're almost already halfway to the next gen already (console gens are normally about 4-5 years and we're almost at 2 for the x360) and Sony is still only stepping up to the plate. I'm glad I have a 360 and not a PS3 as I get to enjoy games now, not tomorrow. And if the games are too big tomorrow, multiple discs is not a problem for me at all.

And I completely agree that M$ would have been stupid to add the HD-DVD in from launch. I feel they made the smart move and the sales stats prove it.

QFT

If Ms had included HD-DVD it would have drove the price up and they'd be in the same crappy situation as the PS3 is right now. I probably wouldn't have bought one at launch I can tell you that.

Anyone who thought we wouldn't see the storage size become problematic for at least a handfull of games is kidding themselves, but I still don't think it's such a big deal... it's been a problem with what? 5 out of nearly 250 games in the Xbox 360 catalog. Give me a break, I'll take switching discs or a few missing features for the much much lower price which has allowed the 360 to garner such a vast catalog of titles.

As for the PS3 somehow magically getting much better down the road: I'm waiting, I have cash and I'm just waiting for Sony to give me a good reason, ANY REASON to buy a PS3 TODAY. I'll wait until there is something on that platform I actually find worth their price. In the mean time that cash is earning interest while the PS3 prices get lower. At this rate by the time PS3 is worth buying I'll have twice as much money in the bank and the PS3 will only cost $200, which is fine by me. No reason to spend money on something until it's actually worth buying.

[ConteZero76]

QUOTE(throwingks @ Aug 1 2007, 03:08 PM)

You can't compare straight up like that. PS3 uses redundant data because blu-ray is slow, and the disks are nonregional. They include videos and audio for all regions, not just the specific region like Xbox360.

If you stripped Fall of Man to US only and no redundant data, what would the size be then?
I don't see the big deal either.

I wasn't comparing, I was responding to someone.
As for "regional" and "nonregional" things, WTF ?
XBox360 PAL games are multilanguage aswell and audio/text isn't the issue here (are you really telling me that 6-7 languages are adding 15+ Gb up ?).

PS: Oh, FYI, one game used duplicating as a way to handle the "slow" (9 Mb/s) BD, most aren't because they don't need to... PS3 developers can rely on HARD DISK.

[twistedsymphony]

QUOTE(stopit33 @ Aug 1 2007, 03:21 PM)

Wow that will be something to look forward too a 360 2 in 3 years cant wait bud lol you 360 fan boys have thick skins I must say you take all the crap that MS throw at you and keep coming back for more

What crap exactly?

Yeah a lot of people had hardware problems, yeah the storage space is tight for less games than I can count on one hand.

Is that it?

I've played nearly 60 games out of the catalog and I throughly enjoyed most of them, there are easily another 40 games I  haven't played yet that are out now and I'm excited about and easily another 20 coming before the end of the year. I haven't had any hardware issues to speak of and my launch day console is still under warranty... seems pretty damn good to me.

Give me one good reason I should buy a PS3 to use as a game machine today.

Give me a reason it's worth buying now instead of waiting and give me a reason that actual has to do with games and not some worthless non-gaming related feature.

If MS dropped support of the 360 TODAY I'd be perfectly content with the gaming experiences I've had so far. Yeah I'd upset that no new games would be coming out but I would no no way shape or form lament the money I've spent on gaming up to this point. As far as I'm concerned I've got my money's worth out of the console and then some. Can you say the same about your PS3?

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 03:36 PM)

I wasn't comparing, I was responding to someone.
As for "regional" and "nonregional" things, WTF ?
XBox360 PAL games are multilanguage aswell and audio/text isn't the issue here (are you really telling me that 6-7 languages are adding 15+ Gb up ?).

PS: Oh, FYI, one game used duplicating as a way to handle the "slow" (9 Mb/s) BD, most aren't because they don't need to... PS3 developers can rely on HARD DISK.

IF they're adding multiple voice tracks in different languages and multiple pre-rendered cut scenes in different languages then yes it can easily double if not triple the game size.
Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox 1 had both English and Japanese video clips and voice tracks The game was just over 6gigs normally but if you removed the Japanese version of the video clips, and the Japanese voice tracks the total game size dropped to about 3.5gigs... and that was all content that you would NEVER see/hear if you were playing on a USA console (the disc was multi regioned)

The same can be said for 360 games but to get the extra space they simply leave out the foriegn retion content. Chances ar those multi region European discs are simply adding sub titles and new menus... which usually adds 100-200MB  at best.

[cerealkillajme]

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 02:54 PM)

twist, relax.
Don't start some stupid flame war, "xbox people" dragged in PS3, we're just avoiding FUD about PS3, the rest is up to you.
If you've someone to blame blame the one who just dragged in PS3.

If you want to say that 8+ Gb are useless for games, you're out of luck here.
As for PS3, we're alive and well with our WASTED 50Gb BD, just like PS2 owners were happy with their WASTED 8,4Gb DVD (as Dreamcast fans liked to say).

Very first post of this thread.

QUOTE(stopit33 @ Jul 30 2007, 07:37 PM)

If this would have bean a ps3 game there wouldn't have bean a problem because ps3 uses blue ray disks instead of normal DVD

QUOTE(stopit33 @ Jul 31 2007, 05:55 PM)

Even if MS were afraid of loosing the format war with blue ray they still should have put a HD drive in there just for games if nothing ells

QUOTE(stopit33 @ Aug 1 2007, 09:31 AM)

As far as a can remember MS knew the ps3 would have blue ray before they put 360 out?, all I'm thinking is when the ps3 starts to get some good games and starts taking off the 360 may be playing catch up just because they use stranded DVD for playing games

QUOTE(stopit33 @ Aug 1 2007, 11:49 AM)

I think your clutching at straws mate the ps3 will be here for duration and it will compete with the 360 and should shine soon

So which one of us "xbox people" dragged the PS3 into this discussion?

[ConteZero76]

QUOTE(cerealkillajme @ Aug 1 2007, 09:16 PM)

Very first post of this thread.
So which one of us "xbox people" dragged the PS3 into this discussion?

I got caught at page 4, I was responding to somebody there and I got flamed.

[stopit33]

QUOTE(ConteZero76 @ Aug 1 2007, 09:47 PM)

I got caught at page 4, I was responding to somebody there and I got flamed.

It was me was only stating a fact if the 360 had a br/hd drive they wouldn't be moaning about disk space end off, I love my 360 but unlike some people on her I don't were blinkers and can see the potential of my ps3, at the minute its just collecting dust waiting to shine (if ever it happens)

[ConteZero76]

I was flamed only because I pointed out that XBox360 games can go up to 6,8 Gb max.
Every XBox360 dump to date is 7,05 Gb, you've to take out the bogus video session at the beginning, security placeholders (<- I think they are still there) and XISO filesystem structure.

[KAGE360]

QUOTE

As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...

When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.

The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.

Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!


Click for larger size... (aprx. 5MB)

We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.

Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.

http://www.bizarrecr...article_id=5257

carry on