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Author Topic: When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?  (Read 292 times)

Ozy

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« on: October 15, 2005, 07:00:00 AM »

When are we going to get real next gen games?

You may be confused about this question thinking, ozy is at it again, hasn't he seen how good the games look, perhaps they will ban him this time, etc.

Well the thing is high res tectures don't make a game next gen if the gameplay can be done on old hardware minus the textures and poly count.

Take a look at the previous generations, N64 and PS1. Perfect dark for example squeezed every bit of juice out of the N64 and it had great graphics of it's time, yes? Yes. The levels were big for it's time and the story and gameplay was the best since golden eye a few years before.

Then you have the xbox and ps2, on the xbox there was Halo on release day, this was even bigger and much better graphics and had better gameplay with great physics (ah, warthog jumps wub.gif ) and raised the bar to what people were expecting from console FPS with things that weren't possible on the N64 like flying and seamlessly transition to ground firefights while shooting rockets with 25 AI people all shooting and no slowdown.

Now we have the x360 (well in few weeks) and the games look good, but the gameplay is the same standard as the xbox, DoA4 and PD0 could be done on the xbox with lowergraphics.

You may say that the games aren't using the full power of the x360, but tell me this;

Halo wasn't using the full power for the xbox but still managed to be much better than any previous generation of console shooters in terms of graphics, physics, AI and general gameplay fun, so why don't these games on the x360 seem to have this big gap like the previous generation jump did?

The only game near release that I would call next gen offering better gameplay, better AI and physics is Oblivion (damn that game rocks smile.gif ).

So my question remains, when will we see true next gen games and why hasn't the gap between this generation and the next being as big as before?
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VariableElite

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2005, 07:36:00 AM »

Two words:

Diminishing returns.

For example, by doubling the resolution measurements of the sides of a texture, you quadruple the space and effort needed to create and store that texture. (Going from 512x512 textures to 1024x1024 textures takes up 4X as much space, not 2X, as is sometimes assumed.) Having programmers abruptly move from single core development to triple core development is jarring, to say the least. They're still learning how to manage all this incredible power that's been thrust at them, all while having to program games that their bosses and customers need to be impressed over.

Halo was in development for years before the Xbox was even a twinkle in bgates's eye. The same with Oblivion -- it would've been a PC title regardless of the launch of the 360.

You say the only game that you feel is truly next-gen is Oblivion. What about PGR3, with its 35,000 spectator support, GothamTV's capability of supporting thousands of simultaneous viewers, and its 100,000+ polygon car renders? Call of Duty 2, which reportedly leaves players literally shell-shocked? Gears of War, which just looks damn good?

Yes, there will always be crap titles -- graphics can make a good game great, but they won't make a bad game good. But we've simply got to give the developers more time to get a handle on the system and its power.

Finally, you've got to admit that you do have a preconceived view of the 360 and its capabilities. However, the ones that are worried about the 360 not being at the same level as the PS3 need to remember that the 360 is in its final configuration, while the PS3 is still in its early-90s-PC size alpha kit. PS3 games might as well be running on SGI workstations: the true test of the PS3 and its power will come once the Sony engineers try to fit it into the case they've been showing off. Until then, it's simply a tech demo, not a new console.

PS: Every game on the 360 is, by definition, a next-gen title. Just because you (or others) may feel that it doesn't adequately show the capabilities of the system is beside the point.
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Ozy

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2005, 07:47:00 AM »

Well you seem to have cleared that up a bit for me.  beerchug.gif

QUOTE
You say the only game that you feel is truly next-gen is Oblivion. What about PGR3, with its 35,000 spectator support, GothamTV's capability of supporting thousands of simultaneous viewers, and its 100,000+ polygon car renders? Call of Duty 2, which reportedly leaves players literally shell-shocked? Gears of War, which just looks damn good?


I haven't seem the lastest GoW trailer yet because it is so far off.

PGR3, it is the same as PGR2 only with flashy graphics, although spectator mode is good.

Call of duty 2? Never seen it because war games don't interest me.
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KAGE360

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2005, 08:00:00 AM »

VariableElite makes some good points and its true.

Ozzy, all flaming aside, the next gen games are coming out at launch.  sure you could point out PDZ, the NBA games (both of them), or DoA4 and say that if they lowered the graphics then it could have been possible on the xbox.  well you could say that for almost every next gen launch game.  

Games like Test Drive Unlimited with its huge island and miles of road could not be done on the previous gen consoles, CoD2 and the huge battle fields with hundreds of soldiers on screen could not be done, If PGR3 was on xbox then the damn system would only be able to render a bridge, and oblivion would have been a quarter of the size and scale if it was on xbox.  when you have over 8 times the polygons in the cars for PGR3 compared to PGR2 you are seeing next gen and you could see similar examples in other games as well.  the scary thing is all these launch games (even the exclusives) can not be claimed to be built for the 360 from the ground up because the devs havent even had the complete kits for a few months.  they were built using altered macs that contained an old ass ATI card and a duel core G5 with no multi-threading, all that is a HUGE difference compared to what were getting in the 360.  trust me you will see a big jump between launch games and later games that are really built from the ground up for the 360.  

to answer your question why was halo a launch title but also such a huge leap compared to previous generations is easy.  halo was being developed as a mac and pc game.  the xbox 1 is basically a pc in a box.  developers (especially PC devs) were used to the architecture in the xbox (CPU, GPU, unified memory, sound card) and the learning curve was next to nothing compared to what developers have to deal with now.  games havent been built to take advantage of and run on multi-core architectures and the GPU in the 360 is custom made and entirely different then a normal GPU.  if the developers were used to the new architecture you would see a bigger gap between the last gen and the next gen.  i think what were seeing now is scary because it looks this good but isnt taking any advantage of the new technologies in the 360.  

i posted this in another thread to someone who was voicing their dissapointment for the next gen, just ignore the parts that dont relate to your question ozzy:

QUOTE
i understand everything your saying and a lot of people were expecting the same thing. however you have to realize that we have reached that level where its not as easy to reach drastic leaps compared to previous generations. in the past generations many new advancements have been made (explosion of poly count, new texture mapping (bump, normal, spectral) and advancements are still being made but i dont think that we will see as many advancements to notice the jumps that have accured in past generations. when you put your mind to it i dont see much more that sony or MS could have done to advance their graphics any further, they got the most powerful next gen GPU from the respective company that they could get while packing in as much CPU power that they could without melting the house down (well the ps3 is still out on that verdict  )

i say just sit and wait and when the systems are ACTUALLY being taken advantage of and the technology in the systems are finally being put to use you will see the huge jump in graphics that you are expecting. remember that the architecture in these systems is far from the norm when it comes to consoles
.


i say trust us when we say that you see the next gen when you put your first game in and your jaw drops not just from the visuals but also from the gameplay that is only possible on the next gen systems.

i like how the next gen is going honestly.  i think because we arent seeing that DRASTIC leap from previous generations to this one, we will be able to see that jump for every generation of games that come out on the 360.  i cant wait to see what these devs turn up when they are actually programming games to take advantage of the next gen systems.

ok im done with my rant  tongue.gif
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zX_Storm

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2005, 08:03:00 AM »

The only thing I can say is, wait until the X360 comes out, play some demos at local gamestore [or friend's], then make your decision. Same with PS3. These "videos" are 100% hype. Of course some of them are real gameplay, but watching someone play is quite different compared to actually playing it, to feel how it feels, to see what happens when you press on the controller. There's no measure on how much you're missing by just skipping it. Live it up a little  pop.gif  beerchug.gif
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Ozy

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2005, 08:17:00 AM »

QUOTE(KAGE360 @ Oct 15 2005, 03:11 PM)
to answer your question why was halo a launch title but also such a huge leap compared to previous generations is easy.  halo was being developed as a mac and pc game.  the xbox 1 is basically a pc in a box.  developers (especially PC devs) were used to the architecture in the xbox (CPU, GPU, unified memory, sound card) and the learning curve was next to nothing compared to what developers have to deal with now.  games havent been built to take advantage of and run on multi-core architectures and the GPU in the 360 is custom made and entirely different then a normal GPU.  if the developers were used to the new architecture you would see a bigger gap between the last gen and the next gen.  i think what were seeing now is scary because it looks this good but isnt taking any advantage of the new technologies in the 360. 
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deakphreak

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2005, 08:19:00 AM »

QUOTE(zX_Storm @ Oct 15 2005, 04:14 PM)
The only thing I can say is, wait until the X360 comes out, play some demos at local gamestore [or friend's], then make your decision. Same with PS3. These "videos" are 100% hype. Of course some of them are real gameplay, but watching someone play is quite different compared to actually playing it, to feel how it feels, to see what happens when you press on the controller. There's no measure on how much you're missing by just skipping it. Live it up a little  pop.gif  beerchug.gif
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Carlo210

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2005, 08:46:00 AM »

QUOTE(Ozy @ Oct 15 2005, 03:58 PM)
Well you seem to have cleared that up a bit for me.  beerchug.gif
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Ozy

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2005, 09:43:00 AM »

QUOTE(Carlo210 @ Oct 15 2005, 03:57 PM)
Btw, PD0 couldn't be done on Xbox1 due to the 360 version streaming the whole map at once (huge maps, might I add). It could've been done without the streaming, shaders, and polys - but that's like saying Unreal Championship could've been done on the ps1 with lower graphics as well.
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Carlo210

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2005, 09:49:00 AM »

QUOTE(Ozy @ Oct 15 2005, 05:54 PM)
I said without the pollys and high res texture. Isn't GTA SA bigger than any PD0 level?  dry.gif
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Carlo210

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2005, 09:54:00 AM »

doulbe post. Stupid server.
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Ozy

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2005, 10:03:00 AM »

QUOTE(Carlo210 @ Oct 15 2005, 05:00 PM)
Why do I bother with you.
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draken333

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2005, 02:10:00 PM »

I feel the era with video games is going to plateau soon. When you see the big gaps...like SNES to N64 there is a huge leap, going from 2d to 3d is amazing, same with ps1 to ps2/xbox the graphics all smoothed out and looked so much more refreshing. Now we are seeing the 360 after xbox and yes, it looks great...the graphics seem better and the gameplay areas are bigger and more can be done, but its really not making that huge leap that we are usually used to in the video game era. I agree that PGR3 is basically PGR2 with better visuals and some new power like the 35k spectators.  But what is really next gen about it?

But then again the 360 is not out, i have not played it, ive only looked at videos so who am i to judge. Im sure in a year we will start to see some amazing games come out once the developers can utilize all that power.
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incognegro

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2005, 02:30:00 PM »

QUOTE
I said without the pollys and high res texture. Isn't GTA SA bigger than any PD0 level? dry.gif

As for streaming, i would say add a few loading screens. PD0 could have run on the xbox.


yes and add hair of a virgin, pig brains and balls of a horse then cast the magic spell..
and voila!!!

A MODERN DAY MIRACLE, PD0 ON XBOX!
 beerchug.gif

 dry.gif Who the hell thought it was a smart idea to teach ozy to develop games!? blink.gif

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Ozy

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When Are We Going To Get Real Next Gen Games?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2005, 03:10:00 PM »

QUOTE(incognegro @ Oct 15 2005, 09:41 PM)
yes and add hair of a virgin, pig brains and balls of a horse then cast the magic spell..
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