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[Nunix]

QUOTE(Devedander @ Jan 13 2008, 11:02 AM)

That makes no sense... first off you will always be waiting for the next ban wave to prove the latest firmware is safe forever and secondly it proves nothing to survive a ban wave... we have users who survived with really old xtreme firmware and some who are probably still playing with old firmware.

It does make sense. If the next ban wave comes and not ONE single person with a virgin console + 1.4 iXtreme has been banned, it will be a damn good indication that MS is struggling with 1.4. At least it will give me more confidence to actually use it online.

[Reaper527]

QUOTE(Nunix @ Jan 13 2008, 06:31 PM)

It does make sense. If the next ban wave comes and not ONE single person with a virgin console + 1.4 iXtreme has been banned, it will be a damn good indication that MS is struggling with 1.4. At least it will give me more confidence to actually use it online.

until the ban wave after that comes and picks up the 1.4 user? its a game of cat and mouse. microsoft will improve their protection, the scene will improve its stealth and spoofing, and it will never end.

if you mod your console, you run the risk of being banned. saying "i'm not going online until microsoft improves their security" seems kind of counter productive to me personally, and also i don't entirely see how that is different from actually being banned.

end of the day, do whatever floats your boat

[Nunix]

You imply that microsoft has an infinite number of ways to verify that a console has a flashed firmware. They do not.

By your reasoning, what's the point of trying to make iXtreme continually "stealth-er"? We'd might as well give up then.

The point is, there's only so many variables that microsoft are checking, and every iXtreme version brings us closer to an online-safe firmware.

Even if some virgin 1.4 consoles get banned, it will be interesting to see *how many*. If only a small number of them, it might mean that microsoft is having a harder time checking for these things and it might have been the user's fault (left a backup in the drive, etc).

Of course,it could be that 1.4 isn't online-safe. In which case, I will still not play my console online. In my specific case, I will wait until a semi-online-safe firmware comes along.

[nbitzis]

"are they playing their originals on live? if they aren't going on the live service, you could just pull the ethernet cable (hide it perhaps) and give them the backups."

 

yes, they do like live.  that is one of the problems.  no worries at this point, i am thinking about just going to the local "gaming store" and getting another used console and running 2x consoles.  but with as much as they like live it will be a tough sell... or it just may be lesson time for the 10 and 8 y/o... take better care of your stuff and it would not get ruined....

 

thanks all



oh and BTW.... i do have a virgin console that was flashed directly to 1.4 then 1.41... it has never seen a backup though... i am not even sure they work cause i flashed to 1.4 right when the last wave started and have not tested anything cause I am holding off on backing up until i have a better idea of things.  been reading up since i joined in Nov a lurking trying to get a handle on things.

 

....sure was easier with the PS2 and the Wii.  lol

[Devedander]

QUOTE(Nunix @ Jan 13 2008, 03:31 PM)

It does make sense. If the next ban wave comes and not ONE single person with a virgin console + 1.4 iXtreme has been banned, it will be a damn good indication that MS is struggling with 1.4. At least it will give me more confidence to actually use it online.

Yeah and here's the skinny... that next ban wave, will result in a 1.5 to fix whatever they suspect MS of tracking down for that ban wave... are you gonna wait until the ban wave after 1.5 to see if that's safe?

Here's were it falls apart... EVERY ban wave is likely to be followed by a firmware to combat it... you will always be waiting for the next ban wave to prove the current firmware is safe... problem is a ban wave will always bring the potential of unsafe so you will never be able to be sure.

That's not even considering the fact that MS has been very sneaky and smart about how they ban so that it's very hard to tell who is banned for what reason.  You could even argue the banning of legit users makes it more cloudy as you can't even be sure it's a mod they are detecting now, you might just get banned because their system has a flaw...

In short... you can't be safe until you find out insider info on what MS is really doing.

So no, it doesn't make sense.

This post has been edited by Devedander: Jan 14 2008, 07:04 PM

[Toddler]

QUOTE(Devedander @ Jan 13 2008, 05:02 AM)

That's the thing... how would you know your own backup is good if you don't check with mulleter, and if mulleter says it's bad how do you know it wasn't an error in ripping or something and your rip really isn't bad?

People don't understand Mulleter or the "error" messages.

When you do your own rips, it is better to just validate for yourself.  If your rip happens to be in the database, that's great.  If it isn't, rip it a second time, run Stealth Uploader on each rip and if they match then you've added another game to the Mulleter database, and voila, your rip is verified.

[Devedander]

QUOTE(Toddler @ Jan 14 2008, 11:55 AM)

People don't understand Mulleter or the "error" messages.

When you do your own rips, it is better to just validate for yourself.  If your rip happens to be in the database, that's great.  If it isn't, rip it a second time, run Stealth Uploader on each rip and if they match then you've added another game to the Mulleter database, and voila, your rip is verified.

I understand you can have a valid rip that isn't in the mulleter database, but from what you say above, first off you still have to use mulleter (ie you can't forget mulleter) and as unlikely as it would be, you could still rip twice with an error couldn't you?  ie your disc has a tiny scratch or something that rips wrong twice?  And if you did then both files would match but be wrong...

I suppose the same could be said for any mulleter signature files but hey...

BTW this does beg the question... and it's kind of OT but I never see it answered anywhere else... how does one know that people aren't sending bad stealth signatures to the database with stealth uploader?

[Toddler]

Nobody said forget Mulleter, what Cypher said was to forget patching your own rips with Mulleter (Autofix).  At the very least, you're changing your pressing to look like someone else's, which could be from a pressing released in another country (region free/multi-region games).  Is that a problem?  Supposedly it isn't, but given that we don't know what Microsoft analyzes to determine a ban, I would rather play US games I can get at Best Buy on my US Live account.

Then there's the question you raised about potentially patching with bad data.  The Mulleter database relies primarily on the submissions of regular users like you and me.  To contribute bad data, someone would need to do it deliberately and maliciously, because it would have to come from two unique rips (raw SS) which match for it to be upped and verified and added to the database.  But even if it's just a theoretical risk, it's still an argument for never patching your own rips with Autofix.

There's more to how it works than I care to explain, and even more to it than has been revealed to me.  Suffice to say that there are some checks in place, but it's not foolproof.  Closer to foolproof I think is ripping your own disc.  A tiny scratch won't produce a bad rip.  If it's bad enough to affect the data read, it won't return the same bad value twice.  That's not how media works.

[Devedander]

QUOTE(Toddler @ Jan 14 2008, 02:55 PM)

Nobody said forget Mulleter, what Cypher said was to forget patching your own rips with Mulleter (Autofix).  At the very least, you're changing your pressing to look like someone else's, which could be from a pressing released in another country (region free/multi-region games).  Is that a problem?  Supposedly it isn't, but given that we don't know what Microsoft analyzes to determine a ban, I would rather play US games I can get at Best Buy on my US Live account.

Then there's the question you raised about potentially patching with bad data.  The Mulleter database relies primarily on the submissions of regular users like you and me.  To contribute bad data, someone would need to do it deliberately and maliciously, because it would have to come from two unique rips (raw SS) which match for it to be upped and verified and added to the database.  But even if it's just a theoretical risk, it's still an argument for never patching your own rips with Autofix.

There's more to how it works than I care to explain, and even more to it than has been revealed to me.  Suffice to say that there are some checks in place, but it's not foolproof.  Closer to foolproof I think is ripping your own disc.  A tiny scratch won't produce a bad rip.  If it's bad enough to affect the data read, it won't return the same bad value twice.  That's not how media works.

You're right, I missread cyphers post...

I have thought about the whole region free thing also... it does seem safer to rely on your own data in that manner.

Now as for the database... I don't think someone would have to do it either deliberately or maliciously... I would think someone could make a legitimate mistake and good intentions might end up sending a bad signature... I used small scratch as it seems the most likely to create a reproduce able error (I only have a general idea of how optical media and error correction works but it would seem to me that if the exact same circumstance was met up with twice, the error correction would correct it the same way both times... if it did it wrong once, it would do it again the second time) but it could come from people with weak or faulty lasers as per the c4e explanation of the rolled back bans.

We have a lot of users who are eager to be helpful but aren't really understanding of the process... might one of them not (in a fit of helpfulness) not understand the double rip portion and just copy the same rip to two locations, verify and send it?  I mean we have people trying to get Xboxes to play 360 games via a soft mod...

I mean these are all very long shots, but it certainly doesn't seem impossible...

And then you can't really eliminate malicious and intentional either... bad movie rips and bogus mp3s sent up by the RIAA and the likes come to mind...

I suppose the only saving grace there is that in order to match against (not auto fix but come back with a green light from) the database, you would have to have the exact error someone else sent up...

[Toddler]

Copying the same rip to two locations doesn't cut it.  That will get flagged as a duplicate and rejected.  It has to be two different rips which match in order to verify.  Right now I know your brain is asking, "if they match, how can they be different?"  Answering that gets into discussions of raw SS and jitter, and I don't care to write a dissertation.  Just trust me that it's not as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.  It would be just about impossible for two different 6.4GB rips to both be bad and yet identical.  If you pull off that feat, you can start picking my lotto numbers from now on.

[cypher21]

Ah when reading some posts, i was affraid i had to type a long story to make things clear, but Toddler, you've already clarified thx

to sum it up, with 1.4 or > you can forget the kreon checker,
and as I said before, and toddler clarified, if it's your OWN rip, only use mulleter to verify it, and not to autofix it.

[Devedander]

QUOTE(Toddler @ Jan 14 2008, 05:57 PM)

Copying the same rip to two locations doesn't cut it.  That will get flagged as a duplicate and rejected.  It has to be two different rips which match in order to verify.  Right now I know your brain is asking, "if they match, how can they be different?"  Answering that gets into discussions of raw SS and jitter, and I don't care to write a dissertation.  Just trust me that it's not as simple as you are trying to make it out to be.  It would be just about impossible for two different 6.4GB rips to both be bad and yet identical.  If you pull off that feat, you can start picking my lotto numbers from now on.

Nope that makes sense... still leaves worries about the intentional malicious possibility though...

[Toddler]

QUOTE(Devedander @ Jan 15 2008, 12:13 PM)

Nope that makes sense... still leaves worries about the intentional malicious possibility though...

Then you can stop worrying, because it will never affect you if you're ripping your own games, since you'll never patch with Autofix.  I believe we've finally closed the loop on your concerns.

[thaone0523]

QUOTE(cypher21 @ Jan 15 2008, 02:57 AM)

Ah when reading some posts, i was affraid i had to type a long story to make things clear, but Toddler, you've already clarified thx

to sum it up, with 1.4 or > you can forget the kreon checker,
and as I said before, and toddler clarified, if it's your OWN rip, only use mulleter to verify it, and not to autofix it.

If i purchase a new arcade xbox360 (virgin) and flash to ixtreme 1.4. I dont have to worry about disc jitter or stealth issues?

Or with 1.4 whether i DL games or Rip it on my own with Ix1.4 I should use mulleter?

Sorry if im being thick headed but im just confused with your wording and new to this.

[Devian]

I've been playing backups for almost a year on live.
Halo 3 i play the most. The way i check my games is by using Xdvdmulleter & the Autofix Feature. After everything is good i check the SS-file wiyh Kreoncheker. If that passes also then i play on live.
I haven't been banned yet and i'm running Ixtreme 1.4, 12x Speed.
When i play a backup which isn't in the database of Xdvdmulleter then i pull out the ethernet cable because of the fact that i can't verify the data of the backup.

The backup-games i play on live are:
Call Of Duty 4
Halo 3
Sometimes i accidentally leave my cable plugged while playing a backup which wasnt in the database of Xdvdmulleter but always pull it out within 5-10 minutes.

HAvent been banned yet

I have 2 consoles :
Hitachi Ixtreme 1.2 12X
Benq Ixtreme 1.4 12X

No problems yet...