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[rgtaa]

Would these guys need lawyers to advise them beforehand on what the consequences could be?

Not only "gamers" could be upset, but MS could be upset too, because these guys were the people who "hacked" the first xbox. And many people here wrote on their behalf, "it's these guys" that cracked the first xbox and got away with it.  So in trying to "help" them, you actually "pointed them out in LINEUP".

If M.S. was unclear beforehand. Or upper management was un-clear... you guys just "made it clear" in no uncertain language.  

If you haven't talked to Lawyer, do it now, maybe someone on Board is lawyer , and can explain the situation a lot better than me.  Are their dangers in what they did?  I'm looking at this from "protecting" these guys.

P.S. maybe this thread should go in shredder... for their sake.  I'm not sure they thought it through, maybe a lawyer can "write" something here, to shed some "light" on this matter.

[Hopeful]

QUOTE(rgtaa @ May 16 2007, 12:41 AM)

Would these guys need lawyers to advise them beforehand on what the consequences could be?

Not only "gamers" could be upset, but MS could be upset too, because these guys were the people who "hacked" the first xbox. And many people here wrote on their behalf, "it's these guys" that cracked the first xbox and got away with it.  So in trying to "help" them, you actually "pointed them out in LINEUP".

If M.S. was unclear beforehand. Or upper management was un-clear... you guys just "made it clear" in no uncertain language.  

If you haven't talked to Lawyer, do it now, maybe someone on Board is lawyer , and can explain the situation a lot better than me.  Are their dangers in what they did?  I'm looking at this from "protecting" these guys.

P.S. maybe this thread should go in shredder... for their sake.  I'm not sure they thought it through, maybe a lawyer can "write" something here, to shed some "light" on this matter. (Ridiculous)

Oh my GOD. Just STOP WHINING kiddies.

Anything to jab at the situation?

Anything to save face, Any excuse to keep bitching?

STOP IT.

By the way don't even try this angle. It was clear from the start.

A) It's one of the reasons ms met up with the guy in the first place.
If it hadn't been, the whiners like you pointed it out here and other places long ago from the start of the topic.
C) Quit it. Admit you're wrong. Give up.

If he wanted anonymity, bunnie wouldn't have explained exactly who he was and met up with ms, in the manner that his blog describes. He also wouldn't have described how he's relieved to escape the anonymity. (Which you obviously haven't read for all your 'mere concern about the safety of the guy'.) You're indignant that hacking was "deserted", and trying to find a ridicule angle AND save face. Just give it up and admit it. This has to be the silliest excuse yet.

Stop making excuses to whine, and most of all...

Stop whining. Be men for once.

[rgtaa]

Guy, I admit I don't know all the "facts" .  


Hopefully you will come to realize that bunnies actions did effect some members of MOD community.

And this site is where modders come and gather, and writing that bunnie gave away "loophole" to MS could get some people upset.  

There is no "right/wrong" here but his actions do have consequences, and it does effect others, including the MOD community.  

[caster420]

Clarifications from bunnie....

QUOTE

http://www.bunniestudios.com/wordpress/?p=173            Wednesday, May 16th, 2007                              There are some important misconceptions that need to be corrected.

 1. I did no technical work on the Xbox 360 hack. Felix Domke (tmbinc) is the true technical genius behind the hack — please give him proper credit for his hard work. My role in this is entirely diplomatic; I was consulted because my previous work on the Xbox meant I was already familiar with the legal risks and the best contact methods. And, as with any hack, there were many other unsung heros involved who are forced to choose anonymity due to risks and circumstances out of their control.

 2. No money was involved. The hack was reported to Microsoft per legal requirements, and per security industry standard operating practice. It is no coincidence that this is the exact same path that was taken on the first Xbox hacks (Hypertransport, 007 and Dashboard). The difference is that this time, Microsoft took the time to listen, and eventually invited us to their house to give a talk.

 3. Finally, this was the opportunity to tell Microsoft that locking out low-level code development (and consequently Linux) will never work. It’s neither sound technically nor good for business development in the long term. We believe they have listened. Although this approach has never been tried before, based on their reactions, future Microsoft devices may not lock out homebrew; at least, we have planted the seeds of a feasible technical and business path to such a future in key minds at Microsoft.

 In closing, I don’t think Microsoft is right in locking down hardware to outside developers; I also don’t think that the pirates are right, either. As a result, I must walk a fine gray line, and I am continuously faced with many a difficult and ambiguous decision.

 And, http://www.bunniestudios.com/wordpress/?p=171#comments, who posted in the comment round on a previous blog entry:

 

“The reason to stay anonymous so long was…about not getting sued. But after Bluehat, it become clear that this was no issue anymore.

 And my strict demand for working on a project like free60 is that i can publish stuff in public, under my real name, without hiding anything, and still be able to sleep well at night. This would not have been possible if we hadn’t worked together with Microsoft."

            

-Caster.

[Hopeful]

QUOTE(rgtaa @ May 16 2007, 01:08 PM)

Guy, I admit I don't know all the "facts" .  
Hopefully you will come to realize that  bunnies actions did 'effect' some members of MOD community (and their expectation of this being handed for free to them sooner)

And this site is where [leeches] come and gather, and writing that bunnie gave away [the] "loophole" to MS could get some [leeches] upset.  

There is no "right/wrong" here but his actions do have consequences, and it does effect others, including the MOD community.

Oh we all realize that. Quite obvious that they EXIST. Also known as "Worthless ungrateful bitches". (The issue: Exterminating them.)

They contribute WHAT? Bitching over not getting their free mods/info soon enough?! WHOA BIG MEN HUH?  Bitching about bunnie/felix for this is simply nonsense and greed. (Dumb too, since this is partly to take the best shot at getting homebrew.) "Guy I admit I don't know all the facts" No one absorbs the whole situation before making a comment. NICE.)

And uh, sorry but no one is 'accountable' to leeches who depend on copying your free research and work for their mere entertainment.

We're ALL leeching off bunnie's discoveries, and Felix's, who is a part of this too. And every other developer working hard for us yet working also to avoid legal issues. Their chosen methods of giving us things for free, are above any "Judgements" douchebag users can ungratefully spew as "consequences" for not "sharing good/fast enough". You are wrong. Stop trying to find ways to excuse being a douche about it, and express gratitude already.

Those of you BITCHING that you weren't given this FREEBIE in the exact fast+unsafe way you WANTED... are insignificant reapers of someone else's hard work and it's not good enough for you. A.K.A Douches. If any of you is aching to PROVE you have no spine or brain... Say something negative about this. The fellas chose to protect themselves a little before kindly GIVING it to you. Anyone who could complain towards that is truly a worthless pig, and never deserved to leech the scene's free knowledge.

BTW. HAHA  I like how it switches to passing it off as "i'm really looking at the legal protection of these guys" for a second then when proven wrong switches back to "look of course it's going to make some of us ingrates angry". NICE. Have some personal accountability. Stop blaming CONTRIBUTORS for not risking their neck exactly the way you want. Thanks. Thanks for calling me "guy" too.

If anything, we should be thanking bunnie and felix for all their generously HUGE sharing, and CONGRATULATING them for their personal successes.

LETS ALL lay off the twatful greedy bitchfulness and congratulate the man gratefully. Or, those of us not man enough to do that keep your mouth shut  

From all of our homebrew/linux collections which would be impossible without the sharing of such brilliant minds, I thank you bunnie, felix and all the un-named contributors for the possibilities you have and continue to provide this community. You have truly given us a lot. Congratulations in finding some relaxing success and fun. Good luck in the fight for true homebrew. SALUTES!

[rgtaa]

Hopeful!

You are "cute" when you "whine"!

I like how  you "bracketed" what you said I wrote  and my "actual statement" of what I said differ. I guess you have no problems "re-writing" history.

I didn't whine bro, you are.  And you do it very well.  You are pretty good at it!

If I feel and many others feel  that what bunnie and you are doing is "strange" , accept it and move on. I took the label right/wrong out of the equation.  And the fact that you have to "get so worked up over it" ... shows me that you must be very young or emotionally unstable.   Go rant all you want.  Intelligent people differ on many subjects, and can disagree in a "adult" way, obviously you have not learned that yet... judging by how you "can't even quote what I did say, but you had to re-write it in a way that was vulgar and not what I said.  Others can read what I wrote and your quote of what I wrote and see that TRUTH of what you are "really" about.

  I'm okay with that.    

Peace

[rgtaa]

I just read what Caster420  wrote or relayed.  I can understand their viewpoint and there reasoning .  And it does sound reasonable, I just don't "feel" good about it, personally.     Please allow some people to feel "upset" with this development.  (I don't expect HOPEFUL to cut me any slack).

Also, my earlier remarks about "lawyers' was only because I really didn't know if they were "protected" or not, so, even though I might not have liked what they did, I didn't wish them any "trouble" either.  

Sorry for double post but after reading what Caster420 thought , I felt that I should at least post that what he relayed was very helpful for me to at "least understand the reasoning behind their acts".  

Thanks Caster420 for reposting that.

Peace

[openxdkman]

What I really fear (these are just hypothetical dialogues based on true nature of people) :

Bluehat conference
- Bunnie & Co : "We helped you to fix the hole. We have ideas allowing homebrew without piracy. Can we have legal homebrew now?"
- MS engineer : "Thanks a lot. Yes, that would be a great idea. Let me talk with my hierarchy first."

MS headquarters
- MS engineer : "We received help from homebrew scene. Can we accept their demand for legal homebrew?"
- MS executive : "Will that raise our money income?"
- MS engineer : "Eh... no."
- MS executive : "Forget it."

About whining or thanking. I can't really do something global :
- Finding the exploit : "Thanks a lots tmbinc, you are a true genius!"
- Revealing it in early 2007 (doesn't matter to who yet) : "Arggg... Hardware is not reliable yet! Too soon!" (just publishing which firmware is vulnerable, anonymously would have been fantastic!)
- Revealing to MS first and wait for firmware fix before opening homebrew on vulnerable firmware:
"Well, a lots will upgrade without knowing what they miss, but if you are seeking a normal life and avoid the outlaw life, it's an acceptable reason. You certainly deserve it."
- Trading help against legal homebrew with MS engineers : "Good luck. However, keep in mind bottom of MS hierarchy can be sincerely gentle but top of MS hierarchy can just behave like sharks... independently."

Judging globally all these actions is too hard. At least for me.

I want to say something about console xbox360 lack of reliability (that's my whining: too early exploit) :
There is certainly a significant "hardware failure rate" for the first 18 months of a purchased console (because of epoxy low quality).
I can't imagine there isn't, as well, a significant "abandon rate", i.e people don't bother repair (especially outside united states). So, and it's a big difference with Wii and ps3, if MS is boasting about a high global sale (shipping) figure, let's say 20M, if we take in consideration both the "hardware failure rate" and the "abandon rate", it's possible the installed base (working) will be just 10M. Later when MS is boasting again about new sale (shipping) figure 2 years later, let's say 30M, it's possible the installed base (working) will be just 12M. Of course I'm not pretending predicting anything precise, but I want to say that it's possible that high "hardware failure rate" creates a very unexpected fate for this console. The number of people subscribing to Live would be an interesting figure to survey. However I fear subscribers will be a merge of xbox360 users and Windows users since you can now subscribe to Live as a Windows user. So this figure won't be so relevant... (unfortunately).

In other words, we may have really missed homebrew on reliable MS next-gen console hardware... unless the "trade" of Bunnie & Co succeeds... But you know why I'm not optimistic about this "trade". But it may be worthy to sacrifice that console, just to see if that kind of "trade" can work with MS...
If "trade" fails, this attempt will be surely judged as "naive" afterwards.
If "trade" succeeds, personally, I will just shout "MIRACLE!".

Now something out of topic :
I'm really interested in knowing "hw failure rate" and "abandon rate".
I suggest someone to create a site that ask people to register at least 10 users they know (more if they can). That excludes lonely players, but aiming only massive groups of players should help to get good statistic accuracy and we dont' care about players that play only 1 day per month offline (doesn't stress epoxy enough, and yes there are games out there that offer a solo campaign you can finish in 1 day!)... Need to register first name, last name, still using console or gave up, number of hw failure, number of purchase, number of replacement through warranty, first date of purchase, model, etc... Then a database allows to discard doublons, and if result is not the same for doublons mark that person as unreliable statistic source if changes are incompatible or just update existing entry with updated data. Then calculate "hw failure rate" and "abandon rate" based on reliable statistic sources found in database. It should be an independant, ad-less, site.