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Author Topic: Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie  (Read 571 times)

dokworm

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2008, 07:11:00 PM »

A couple of points.

1) Bitrate does make a difference. T2 looks MUCH better on HD-DVD than on the WMV version. On the WMV one, and in fact all of the WMV HD titles banding is clearly visible. colour banding drives me nuts, it is one of those things that once you notice it is hard not to see.

2) 720P vs 1080P vs 1080i, it really depends on your display. If you have a native 1080P panel type display (e.g. LCD) then 720P tends to look awful as it has to be re-scaled. comparing 1080P on such a display, there is a huge difference, even at quite long viewing distances. If you have a CRT though, and run the 720P videos at 720P resolution, and the 1080P ones at 1080P resolution, then the difference really isn't that noticeable on reasonable sized displays. On a CRT projector though, you *really* see a difference between 720P and 1080. I run a 10ft wide screen and it really does make a huge difference. and the difference between the downloaded content and HD-DVD is also really really different, to the point where the compression artifacts (banding, mosquito noise etc.) really do annoy.

3) It depends what you are used to . Most americans don't notice the 60Hz judder, most europeans and australians can barely stand to watch it. Americans tend to notice the PAL 50Hz flicker, those of us who grew up with it tend not to. (although that is changing as people get used to high refresh and/or panel displays). A lot of things you don't notice at first, like the colour banding, or lack of black levels on LCD displays -  but once you do , it becomes an annoyance. I wish I could un-notice things. The higher compression used for downloadable HD and even FTA TV really does suck once you notice it. sometimes much worse than others though. Some are just poorly encoded.

4) Physical Media vs Downloads. Physical media will be here for a long while yet. you get far better quality, don't have to worry about running out of storage or yr download quota. In australia, if you don't live in a capital city, then a $50 per month internet plan  is limited to 5GB per month and a 1.5Mb connection or 8Mb at best ($70pm then)  Doesn't get you a lot of movies.
In the capital cities it is better, but even then not available to everyone.

so a lot of the criticism is valid. the HD downloads are generally better than standard-def  DVD, and it is cool being able to get 720P content that way, and easily, but until broadband gets a *lot* faster and a *lot* cheaper, the discs will continue to be a mainstream choice.

If you are happy with the way your movies look, then that is good enough. If you aren't there are better alternatives available. It is all good. we have never had such access to such high quality transfers for so little money.
You can buy a HD-DVD player for $149 and get movies for less than $30 each in the US, that is amazing quality for the money (and scale up yr DVDs). It wasn't long ago that laserdisc was the way with players costing a grand and the movies being up to $100 each, and the quality, by comparison was appalling.

These are amaazing times for movie lovers (if you overlook the DRM crapola).

Now if they would just enable 75Hz and 71.91Hz on the 360 or HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players so we could playback movies without judder, I'd be a happy boy

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ekruob

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2008, 08:15:00 PM »

As they say, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...

The author doesn't know what he's talking about I'm afraid:

The stated HD DVD bit rate of 28mbps VC-1 is close to the maximum - not the minimum as claimed!
This is evidenced by Blu-ray titles that use 40mbps for MPEG-2; VC-1 compresses 2.2 times more efficiently than MPEG-2.  So 40mbps MPEG-2 = 18mbps VC-1.  This in itself clearly demonstrates the lack of knowledge the author has.

Secondly, 720p video uses half the bandwidth of 1080p video - this means that 9mbps for 720p is PERFECT (very high quality).  Which also means that the Xbox downloads at around 6-7mbps are perfectly fine.

Thirdly, 480p video uses almost half the banwidth of 720p video - so 4mbps is absolutely fine using VC-1 as well.


Recommendation: author loses his job due to blatent incompetance.


Cheers,
Richard.

Computer Systems Engineer

This post has been edited by ekruob: Jan 21 2008, 04:18 AM
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erexx

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2008, 09:49:00 PM »

Claiming to know something simply because you have a "title" and therefore makes it fact is much more dangerous.
If you have a problem being insulted by a freak then that’s a personal issue.

No matter how you see it.
No matter what codec is being used.
(Apparently it’s all a matter of subjective experience. Especially for the blind.)

The argument is if internet download of HD online-content can compete with HD video on disc?
(Not how far away from the TV you sit.)

The answer is no.
Get over it.

No matter how you want to justify it "that" just won’t happen for a long time.
They will compliment each other for various uses.
They will share the market in their own way.

It’s the source and transmission methods used that matter the most.
HD Player to TV vs. Internet or Cable to TV....
24p HD-video vs. 25fps / 29.976fps TV vs. Upscaled DVD's blah blah blah...
MPEG vs. VC1 vs. whatever are loosing arguments for all sides.

It’s the source that matters most and all things derive differently from that point.
... Don’t you know that compression is the devil?

This post has been edited by erexx: Jan 21 2008, 06:09 AM
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btally

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2008, 10:49:00 PM »

HD should actually mean something. Calling these crappy itunes download videos HD is a joke. X360 HD isn't bad, but comcast's HD on demand is by far the best. If you want any better, time to buy the disc.
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ekruob

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2008, 11:11:00 PM »

QUOTE(erexx @ Jan 21 2008, 02:49 PM) *
The argument is if internet download of HD online-content can compete with HD video on disc?
(Not how far away from the TV you sit.)

The answer is no.
Get over it.

No matter how you want to justify it "that" just won’t happen for a long time.


250+mbps* ADSL is only about three (3) years away (currently called VDSL2).

This will mean 40+mbps real life speeds are possible - even over the most dodgy of the current copper lines...

That will provide 'Full HD' 1920 x 1080p streaming no problem at all :-)


*250+mbps is the maximum speed of the technology under ideal conditions.

This post has been edited by ekruob: Jan 21 2008, 07:22 AM
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erexx

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2008, 10:58:00 PM »

QUOTE(ekruob @ Jan 21 2008, 06:11 AM) View Post

250+mbps* ADSL is only about three (3) years away (currently called VDSL2).

This will mean 40+mbps real life speeds are possible - even over the most dodgy of the current copper lines...

That will provide 'Full HD' 1920 x 1080p streaming no problem at all :-)
*250+mbps is the maximum speed of the technology under ideal conditions.


That's fair to say.

Maybe ADSL will be available
Maybe it won’t.
Maybe FiOS will be available
Maybe it won’t.
Maybe High Speed Cable will be available

Who knows?

Granted Truly High Speed internet is inevitable.
It’s only a matter of when, how and how much.

It’s still a matter of time.
The next 5 to 15 years.

It’s still also a matter of apples and oranges.
On-Demand vs. the DVD is an example.
HD On-Demand vs. HD-DVD is a fair parallel.
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ekruob

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2008, 12:10:00 AM »

QUOTE(erexx @ Jan 21 2008, 04:34 PM) *

Granted Truly High Speed internet is inevitable.
It’s only a matter of when, how and how much.

It’s still a matter of time.
The next 5 to 15 years.


True - 3 years for the early adopters - but as you correctly state; 5+ years for everybody else.

So that only gives about 5 years left for optical media :-)

No wonder Sony is so pissed off about Blu-ray - LUV IT :-)
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21cwSpanky

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2008, 11:35:00 PM »

QUOTE(erexx @ Jan 21 2008, 07:34 AM) View Post


It’s only a matter of when, how and how much.
.

 
That's the big question, how much. There are many cities across the US, nevermind the rest of the world with only one service provider, if even. When you hold a monopoly on the ISP's in your area they have no reason to switch to a better, faster, system. It's already been proven that standard cable can go up to 30 mbits (cablevision). Yet you're lucky if you have a provider which even supplies 10 mbit lines in the rest of the country.
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jaynigs

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2008, 12:31:00 AM »

QUOTE(ekruob @ Jan 21 2008, 03:15 AM) *

As they say, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...

The author doesn't know what he's talking about I'm afraid:

The stated HD DVD bit rate of 28mbps VC-1 is close to the maximum - not the minimum as claimed!
This is evidenced by Blu-ray titles that use 40mbps for MPEG-2; VC-1 compresses 2.2 times more efficiently than MPEG-2.  So 40mbps MPEG-2 = 18mbps VC-1.  This in itself clearly demonstrates the lack of knowledge the author has.

Secondly, 720p video uses half the bandwidth of 1080p video - this means that 9mbps for 720p is PERFECT (very high quality).  Which also means that the Xbox downloads at around 6-7mbps are perfectly fine.

Thirdly, 480p video uses almost half the banwidth of 720p video - so 4mbps is absolutely fine using VC-1 as well.
Recommendation: author loses his job due to blatent incompetance.
Cheers,
Richard.

Computer Systems Engineer


Are you confusing bit rate with compression rate?

The peak A/V mux rate for Blu-ray is approx 48Mb/s(40Mb/s for video)

The codec used is irrelevant for this particular argument

Whether it be Mpeg2, VC1 or AVC, the max bitrate is still 40mbps for blu ray ( and 28mbps for HD DVD ).

Thus, blu ray VC1 max video bitrate is also 40mbps, and 28mbps for HD DVD

This post has been edited by jaynigs: Jan 21 2008, 08:46 AM
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jaynigs

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2008, 01:07:00 AM »

Didnt get chance to finish what i was saying as i clicked post by mistake..

Anyway, the point of this posted blog was that HD DVD VC-1 @ 28mbps should be the accepted reasonable minimum loss for HD content.

HD 720p therefore ideally should be at least VC-1 @ 14mbps ( judging by it being half the bandwidth of 1080p )

Xbox live HD is 720p VC-1 @ is 6-7 mbps as you stated, which is what he is claiming is simply not good enough.

Would you buy a HD DVD 1080p disc that is encoded with VC-1 @ 14mbps?

If DLC is to rival optical media, then it should be equal quality! people are being fooled into thinking it is!

This acceptable standard of quality is of course subjective, some people are fussier than others.

When people download HD they expect quality on a par with HD or Blu Ray, and as he is pointing out, it simply isn't the same!

This post has been edited by jaynigs: Jan 21 2008, 09:22 AM
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Coolpplse

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2008, 02:51:00 AM »

QUOTE(mlmadmax @ Jan 20 2008, 06:57 PM) View Post

What about the fact that NO ONE broadcasts in 1080p? Comcast and satelite and over the air are both 1080i or 720p who the hell cares about 1080p when the only thing that can play it is blu-ray and hd-dvd? Also aren't all the downloadable stuff not 1080p as well?

I only bring this up because the entire article is talking about downloadable or broadcast service right?

1080i 60 frames Interlaced Movies from Comcast/Satelite/OTA -> 3:2 Pulldown from ur TV = volia 1080p 24 Frames progressive!

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Chancer

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2008, 04:10:00 AM »

QUOTE(ewok666 @ Jan 20 2008, 11:37 PM) View Post

To spot a difference on 37" at that distance you would have to have exceptionally good eyes....assuming the 720p and 1080p are otherwise of equal quality.

In movies I struggle to find differences from 1-2ft away from my laptop 17" wuxga screen.

Trust me. Real world there is a marked difference. I know exactly what I am looking at and for. I am also picky about very minor things. It's my job (for the last 29 years).
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bonevichio

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2008, 09:49:00 AM »

QUOTE(sgr215 @ Jan 20 2008, 09:27 AM) View Post

On a side note, It's times like this I'm happy I've got FiOS. biggrin.gif


I have FiOS and think it's the best picture too.

Compressed video is just not the same as full uncompressed 1080p.

FiOS has a great picture for the new york station broadcast - mostly 1080i or 720p for abc, fox, nbc.....

Divx HD can look really great if encoded properly.


QUOTE(swampy @ Jan 21 2008, 03:26 PM) View Post

1080p is just a scam to get suckers money.   If you really want better looking video on large displays, you will have to wait for 1440i or 2160i or whatever video to start being produced.  Movies are shown on huge screens using projectors at 24 fps, and the look of film seems to be the standard everyone is shooing for, it's resolution that makes movies look good on huge screens, not fps.


While 4K is several years away from broad adoption......calls 4K a “quantum leap” over HDTV.
http://www.wral.com/.../story/1247955/
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FoxRacR17

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2008, 10:27:00 AM »

QUOTE(Skitals @ Jan 20 2008, 08:49 AM) View Post

Damnit I'm feeling old. Member here since 2002, member # 1184 sad.gif


I hear ya, member since '03 right here  blink.gif
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feflicker

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Don't Believe the Low Bit-Rate 'HD' Lie
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2008, 01:12:00 PM »

I think everyone is missing the point:

Does the HD download look better than the SD download? If it does, then it's HD. That is how it is being looked at by these companies. Furthermore, they are paying more attention to the SOURCE. So if the source is HD, the download is HD.

Good luck trying to get any standards implemented for what really constitutes an "HD" rip of a HD source.

The bottom line: Does the movie look good when you play it back? If it does, WHO CARES HOW THEY MADE IT LOOK GOOD OR WHAT THE BITRATE IS, ETC. If it doesn't look good, don't pay for the service any longer and file a complaint with the company. Consumers drive the market. If consumers don't buy it, they'll make adjustments...
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