Print

[Chancer]

QUOTE

I know the two technologies pretty well. Bluray is more expensive, that's why the players cost more and a lot of the feature that are standard on HD DVD are optional on Bluray. The bottom line for Toshiba is get more people on board or get ready to close up shop. In my store we have at least 8 player models (including two hybrids) that play bluray, and only 4 players (including two hybrids) that play HD DVD. Forget the A2 and A20, they've been discontinued. The A3 and A30 account for two of the players. Why is Toshiba the only company making HD DVD? Has anyone in here forgot what happened to Apple when IBM introduced the PC and everyone else started building it?

 The materials cost involved in Blu ray is not what it was even a year ago. If required companies such as Funai could build for bigger name manufacturers  at low cost. That would happen if Toshiba released a cheap player. Toshiba would have to take an almighty risk to do this. It bottled it in the Tv war by opting to drop it's own (excellent) in house chassis designs to buy in cheap crap from vestel, not because it wanted to, but because the financial viability of trying to compete using it's own designs.
Toshiba would need another big backer and MS being MS will not risk financing an operation to flood the market with cheap standalone players. A move which would be immediately countered by the BR camp.
The amount of electronics manufacturers standing side by side with Sony is massive. The big players like Panasonic and Philips are only a couple.
 If HD-DVD falls over Toshiba will be jumping ship as well.

[a94cobra]

QUOTE(Elemino @ Jan 6 2008, 06:21 PM)

and only 4 players (including two hybrids) that play HD DVD. Forget the A2 and A20, they've been discontinued. The A3 and A30 account for two of the players. Why is Toshiba the only company making HD DVD?

First if you still have A2 and A20 on the shelves, why not count them.  You didn't specify.  And how can you have hybrids and say no one else builds players.  

But you do have a case.  Maybe the Toshiba players are too cheap for the competition(other HD DVD makers) to get involved yet.  Wal-mart is suppose to be getting an off brand model soon.  I forget what I read on when.

[Chancer]

Which other manufacturers will get involved.
There is only really NEC.
The other manufacturers are all Blu Ray (Dell, HP, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics,Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson)
MS have never really said they are one or the other despite the add on HD-DVD drive.

[ChoZ3nWon]

QUOTE(PirateElf @ Jan 5 2008, 08:48 PM)

My only real problem with the format war is the fact that it does indeed seem Blu-ray is gaining ground and that really scares me. Let's look at history of what sony brought to the table:

Beta-max
UMD
Mini-discs
Super Audio Cd

And the list goes on I just can only remember those few. Point being is Sony is notorious for making crappy products. They always have been. People want to point and laugh at the microsoft RROD (Red Ring of Death for you little people) but lets get serious here folks who had a playstation 2 (Gen 1 -3) that for no apparent reason whatsoever just stopped working. MILLIONS upon MILLIONS. Sony admitted to the problem and it was fixed 4 generations later BUT whereas microsoft just increased the warranty Sony basically told you to jog on and deal with it.

I am not saying I am a fanboy for one thing or another but I do tend to know when I see superior products and that's usually ANYTHING that is not sony. And it not just their game systems either but look at their record of other stuff. Sony speakers blow, Sony Tv's are a joke, Sony headphones are awesome for a period of no more than 30 days, (Note personal Experience coming:) Playstation 1 breaks and Sony fails to honor warranty, Sony fails to honor almost all of its warranties unless you pay them. Oh, and lets not forget the travesty that is/was the sony walkmans. Dear god! You remember those things right? You just bought that brand new Metallica Black album and you were so excited, only to have that damned thing eat your tape after only a few plays. The discmans were even worse. Twice as expensive as any other cheap cd player on the market and made with worse parts that would not even play flawless cds sometimes.

Bottom line is in the long run Sony has become synonymous with cheap crappy products that break way faster than they should. They are known to make less than superior toys. Although I must admit that the mini-discs were innovative and a really good idea, just got destroyed due to the ipod/digital music players era. The only thing sony has successfully accomplished was a gaming system. And personally I really think that was a fluke. They happened to be in the right place at the right time. Sony had no competition. When PS1 hit the market they were up against the aged SNES, and the ridiculous hard to program for Saturn by sega and people were losing confidence in sega after the BS that was the 32X / Sega CD addons (Both of which were cool, but not what they promised to be). Sure Nintendo finally release the N64 to our shelves two years after the PS1 already had a foothold in a stagnate market. It simply couldn't complete with the FMV and bigger gaming experience that was the PS1. The PS2 was the same thing really. PS2 was fighting against the aging N64 (Cause let's face it, even though it was a good system most of the games showed their age and were not "Next-Gen" and it was Cartridge based) and the Exalted Dreamcast (The best gaming system in recent memory had it not been for the fact it simply had no third party support, consumer confidence had dropped significantly, and couldn't compete financially with the Juggernaut that is Sony) So since the inception of the Playstation idea sony has always banked on one idea: We have no competition.

The current gaming war is really not even a war. It's a fanboy marathon, and for good reason. This time around Sony really has competition. They have the powerhouse that is Microsoft. With their money and resources they can't be bullied out of the scene like poor Sega, and for the first time since the SNES Nintendo has really done something extraordinary. This time around they really have to show what they are made of, and at this time Sony has nothing going for it except for being the cheapest Blu-ray player on the market. The games at this point are a joke. (Just like almost all 1st gen sony games that have come out over the years.)

With these new companies coming over to Blu-ray no doubt sony is excited, but it just saddens me that companies are choosing a company with a track record of making bad products that just get replaced by better products. Some people might flame me for being a fanboy against sony, but everything I have just told you has come directly from news sources, wikipedia (Not reliable as a source I know but it works), and personal experiences with Sony products. So while I think that this format war is not over just yet, it seems that HD-DVD is indeed losing the battle. Which should bother you, because it could set a trend for further horrible products from Sony.

you sound like one for not knowing that its the BDA that controls Blu-ray and sony is just one of 50+ manufactures.

[biga55]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Jan 6 2008, 12:49 PM)

Which other manufacturers will get involved.
There is only really NEC.
The other manufacturers are all Blu Ray (Dell, HP, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics,Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson)
MS have never really said they are one or the other despite the add on HD-DVD drive.

I agree with your posts on this like I've said before.

But MS is heavily vested in HD-DVD as they developed HDi (used in HDDVD) which they tried to get into BR but was turned down.  BR decided to go with java, and you can bet MS was pissed off.  This isn't proven but many believe that Toshiba was ready to throw in the towel in 2005 but MS convinced them to stay in.  MS also publicly announced that they would back HDDVD over BR.

Whether this was done to have HD-DVD succeed or have physical HD media fail for the sake or download services (a la Michael Bay) only MS knows.

HDDVD fanboys, please quit mentioning region coding.  Of course no region coding would be better for us as consumers, but what do you think the studios would prefer to support?  It's not ideal, but that's just the way it is.  And please quit ranting off about how Sony can't succeed with media formats.  You've heard of CDs and DVDs right?

Sony isn't a saint either but google "toshiba fined" and see what a great, straight shooting company Toshiba is.

[juan_2006]

Well we got our hd-dvd on the 27th so i guess we're gonna return it one of this days.

[Elemino]

QUOTE(a94cobra @ Jan 6 2008, 11:40 AM)

First if you still have A2 and A20 on the shelves, why not count them.  You didn't specify.  And how can you have hybrids and say no one else builds players.

They're not still on the shelves... that's my point. But people still talk about them. In my store we have 4 models that will play HD DVD. Toshiba HDA3, HDA30, Samsung BDUP5000 (Hybrid), and the LG BH200 (Hybrid). Bluray on the other hand we have more manufacturers than HD DVD models combined. Sony, Samsung, LG, Sharp, and Panasonic. It still reminds me of Apple Vs IBM.

BTW.. bluray is still expensive... it's definately getting cheaper, but it still costs more than HD DVD.

biga55: Sony wasn't the sole inventor of the CD. And as far as the DVD goes, the technology is based on the original creation by Toshiba (it was a colaboration of the two trying to avoid what's going on now with the HD formats). That's the main reason Toshiba is the big backer of HD DVD.

[djtonic]

QUOTE(m00nstone @ Jan 6 2008, 07:07 AM)

Ok, you touched a sore spot here.  Why would anyone want their game console's optical drive to double as a video player.  Every optical drive has a limited lifespan based on usage.  Why would I want to waste that on movie watching?

And like most people, I watch alot of movies... but I want my video game system to last.  

Don't even get me started on this crap where people want them to bundle hd-dvd in their 360s.  People have no brains.

I love when "people" talk about "people".  Do you mean the entire human race?  Could you say "people" 1 more time please!!!??

I too wanted HD-DVD to last and become the standard but this is a major set back!  (HD-DVD even has a better, easier name with DVD in the title)

I will now watch and see what will happen and buying a PS3 may be on the radar.  I bought my xbox 1 not only as a game system but because it was my first DVD player.  My drive never died because of watching movies or playing games.  Early indications are the PS3 hardware is very sound and well built.  however I will probably wait until the next revision of the hardware comes out to purchase it.

Remember Sony isnt the only company involved with bluray
Everyone complaining about Sony prices....just don't buy it if you think it is too expensive.  

Bad news for the consumers here and for HD but complaining about it and pledging support for a format that won't be around in a year or 2 doesnt make any sense either.
I can probably see HD stick around as a storage medium for the pc maybe but it seems obvious that movies will be BD only



~Dj~

[biga55]

QUOTE(Elemino @ Jan 6 2008, 03:43 PM)

biga55: Sony wasn't the sole inventor of the CD. And as far as the DVD goes, the technology is based on the original creation by Toshiba (it was a colaboration of the two trying to avoid what's going on now with the HD formats). That's the main reason Toshiba is the big backer of HD DVD.

Yes, I know that.  We can also say that Bluray is also a collaboration.  My point is that people are ignoring these formats so they can talk about how Sony sucks at developing and promoting media formats.  Even if you want to dismiss DVDs for the argument as it was mostly Toshiba, you still got Philips/Sony developed CDs.

What's your point?  Not being a dick, I am just curious as to why you bring that up?  Are you saying the fanboys are right?  I never said Sony was the sole inventor of the CD/DVD.  Developments like that are often undertaken jointly.

[a94cobra]

I doubt it related to the announcement, but Sears is giving a HD DVD A3 free with purchase of 42" Plasma.

[GuntherMP5]

A lot of people seem to be complaining just because BlueRay is a Sony backed product.

People are saying sony makes crappy products.
I don't know if I agree with that, Sony makes very good TV's,  I currently would only buy a Sony Bravia or a Samsung ( 5 years ago I wouldn't even include SAMSUNG) and 3rd choice would be a SHARP AQUOS.

Sony's problem is their total proprietary crap that they don't like licensing. But they might be learning, look at the Memorystick, other people make Memsticks although I would only buy SANDISK and their PS3 has slots for CF,SD/MiniSD and memstick, so they are not trying to force people as much. For proprietary BS , you could include Microsoft with there, Proprietary HD and there proprietary wireless technology ( granted they did allow licensing for the wireless guitar since people were bitching after the Guitar Hero II, I can't get on them for their marriage of DVDdrive and Mobo, I understand thats for there protection, but I should be able to swap any larger HD I want! Even Sony Allows this with the PS3! I don't know if its officially approved but it can be done so easily that they had to want to give that ability to the user.

Sony has also been known for their pathetic at best , customer service! REALLY BAD. I had to send my PS3 in for repair ( yes it broke ) but I got it back quicker than my 360 that got sent for repair. So even this they have improved on.

I have a friend that ONLY buys SONY, I personally don't agree but everyones entitled to their opinions. I personally like certain brand  for certain items and I usually try to stick with that but then again companies change, look at LG its still China or Korean crap but their QC has gotten a lot better. ( other than a phone I don't think I would purchase anything though)
IMHO opinion:
TV's: SONY,SAMSUNG,SHARP
Receivers: ONKYO, DENON, HARMON KARDON
DVD players( for all those DVD's you still have): OPPO, SAMSUNG upscaling
PC's: Personal Built Only! If you don't know how it works you shouldn't be using it
Speakers: I am not going there , but for the average person-Acoustic Research, ADVENT, or home built ( do your homework and don't skimp on components) are best.

I personally like my BlueRay's better than my HDDVD's but lets not be negative because its backed by a company we don't like. I love my 360 but I don't like Microsoft.

 No matter what you do in this day in age you will be constrained by one company or another trying to take your money on their terms. If you do not feel this is fare then I suggest you get involved in the growing Open Source Movement.

"Thats All I have to Say About That!" - Forest Gump

[ludacrisvp]

QUOTE(steveju @ Jan 5 2008, 04:10 PM)

"lack of region coding"

HD-DVD is so inferior

Honestly is there even a need to mention this?
I have never had the need to play a DVD from another region.
Why would I need to play a BluRay movie from another region?

QUOTE(HotKnife420 @ Jan 5 2008, 05:06 PM)

The main thing that sucks about all this is that my PS3 is forceably on my SDTV, as my HD is VGA-only (Damn Sony trying to push more TVs). I tried building my own adapter, but then found my monitor doesn't support SoG, so I'm back to square one, I suppose.... LotR on HD would kick ass, tho.

Well you could pick up a DVI-D to VGA converter from Divineo for about $110 USD its called HDFury and while it is not the cheapest thing out there it doesn't need an extra power supply and it is HDCP Compliant so you will not need to buy a new display to view HDCP protected content. Your monitor needs to support RGB and since you say it is VGA and doesn't support Sync On Green (Common for component video) I would think it is RGB compatible.  

You blame Sony for having HD over VGA only?
Sounds like an outdated/cheap HDTV to me, is it even a Sony TV?
In 2001 our first HDTV was DVI-D HDCP compliant.
You buy a cheap HDTV and you will not have decent connections, the saying you get what you pay for comes in to play here.
Ex: $400 30" CRT HDTV purchased in 2005 only has (2) component, (1) Coax, (1) S-Video, (2) Composite.
$2000 RPTV purchased in 2001 has (2) component, (1) DVI-D HDCP, (3) Coax (2 in, 1 out), (2) IR Blasters, (5) S-Video, (5) composite.
$1000 FPTV Purchased in 2006 has (1) VGA, (1) DVI-A/D HDCP, (1) component, (1) S-Video, (1) composite.

QUOTE(ErikREspo @ Jan 5 2008, 08:48 PM)

You people that are "sticking with HD-DVD" are not thinking and evidently aren't thinking ahead.  You are the same people who think 4.7Gb DVDs are good enough and we don't need more space on the dvd cause the 8Gb dvds are too expensive.  The only reason is it "more Expensive" is because you choose not to adopt it.  

Meanwhile you enjoy your state of the art T1...   I'll take my cable modem.

for those of you who don't understand the T1 comment.   Many companies out there still use T1s despite their slow speeds when better technologies are there.

Ah but your problem is when there is someone that does understand T1 and how cable modems work you end up being wrong. Sucks huh?

With having a Bachelor of Science Degree in Information Technology focused under Networking behind me I will let you know the statement you gave is flawed.

No matter what cable company you are using you have a thing called shared bandwidth. This means that everyone that comes off your local node from the company is sharing the bandwidth with you.
Example everyone in your area is on 10Meg and everyone is trying to download at full capacity and there are 100 users and the node has a 100Meg connection everyone will be limited to a 1 meg capacity. This is not even taking into account the overhead bandwidth that is wasted.

The companies that use that "state of the art" T1 choose the connection because it is guaranteed and there is real reliability.
They have that bandwidth dedicated/reserved for their use only. Call it their own private highway to the internet. You will find an extremely low latency connection on the T1 connections.
The T1 connection will always be given priority over non T1 connections that come in to any node on the network on its way to the ISP's OC-x connection to the internet cloud.

However with that said in general a regular consumer will be happy with the shared connection that can burst in speed up to the speed that they are rated for. Speeds over cable will vary throughout the day, during certain times of the day I can download from quality sites at about 1170Kbps and other times not go above 80Kbps.

I am on 10Meg Cable with Charter Communications.

Some cable companies will throttle your bandwidth if you are using too much in a certain time frame, this will not happen on a T1 leased line.

------------------

As far as New line following Warner I think that it is a good choice. I don't see why a select few companies remain on the HD-DVD Bandwagon with so much support backing BluRay.

To whomever mentioned that BluRay initially had larger disc capacity is wrong. They have BluRay prototype discs with 250GB on BluRay and 170GB on HDDVD Ritek made those 10 layer discs, neither are usable on standard drives. Also another BluRay version with 200GB using 6 layers.
TDK had the first 100GB BluRay with 4 layers but wasn't able to use standard equipment either.

Hitachi has also shown at CES in 07 a 4 layer 100GB BluRay that is usable on standard BluRay drives.

The 51GB HD-DVD is a joke. The 3 layer disc was recently approved but there are no movies released on it and Toshiba will not comment on compatibility for this TL disc with the current players.

Why buy the more expensive 3 layer HD-DVD disc when you can fit the information onto a DL BluRay?

Most BluRay movies use one layer, most HD-DVD use both layers. So most movie companies are saving money on the single layer BluRay over the dual layer HD-DVD disc.

-@GuntherMP5 the changing/upgrading of the PS3 hard disk is officially supported and is one thing that certainly helps put Linux on the PS3.

[Elemino]

I don't necessarily think Sony stuff is crap. I do, however, think they are over priced and their ego gets in the way of being a greater company.

I sell Tv's, and to be honest with you I wouldn't rank Sony 1st in any type of TV.

LCD: 1. Samsung 2. Sony (Samsung made screens)
Plasma: 1. Pioneer 2. Panasonic 3. Samsung (Sony doesn't make plasma's anymore due to their F-ups)
Projection: 1. Mitsubishi 2. Samsung 3. Other DLP's 4. Sony (Sony's do have a sharp picture though)

I would like to point out that 95% of the TV's we send out as defective from the displays are Sony. Take that how you want it, but it makes me want to stay away from them. That includes LCD and Rear projection. Also, don't come with the 'because they have more models.' They don't. Remember, samsung makes their screens, so for every Sony TV, their is a corresponding Samsung. It's usually better, and it's usually cheaper.

I just don't like to invest in Sony products because their ego's are way too big. Their technologies I think are wonderful for the most part. I think Bluray was rushed, UMD was a stupid idea (just use discs), mini discs were too late, memory stick (wtf?), betamax... stop trying to be apple. I'm not saying the "fan boys" are right, I just think HD DVD would be the winner right now if it had been introduced better. Less the capacity, HD DVD was the better format with much higher standards than bluray.

[Chancer]

I repair Tv sets and I can tell you the 2 least seen manufacturers in the workshop are Sony and Panasonic.
 Samsung LCD sets I wouldn't touch too many of the LE series sets with an inherent fault. best thing is half the customers don't even see it until it is pointed out.
 Before you say maybe I just don't see the faulty Panasonic and Sony, we are an ASC for all 3 of those manufacturers.

[biga55]

QUOTE(Elemino @ Jan 7 2008, 03:43 AM)

I just don't like to invest in Sony products because their ego's are way too big. Their technologies I think are wonderful for the most part. I think Bluray was rushed, UMD was a stupid idea (just use discs), mini discs were too late, memory stick (wtf?), betamax... stop trying to be apple. I'm not saying the "fan boys" are right, I just think HD DVD would be the winner right now if it had been introduced better. Less the capacity, HD DVD was the better format with much higher standards than bluray.

Ok so you hate Sony (go figure).  Guess what?  So do I because I've gotten bad customer support from them.  I just don't let it make me biased so I can go out and post BS on the internet.  Maybe it's because I don't really care who wins, I just wish that someone would win and fast, unlike an HDDVD supporter like you.

It's not that you agree with the fanboys, it seems you are one.  For a sec you had me fooled as one of the objective ones.  I can't believe you made yet another post about Sony's different formats when my point is about how stupid it was to do so, like it hasn't been done enough right?