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[medievil]

QUOTE(SovietSlayer @ Nov 24 2009, 10:56 PM)

Actually according to firefox you are wrong
http://geotool.flagfox.net/?ip=174.120.39.....xbox-scene.com

but ms would have to PROVE all the consoles were actually modified and not just suspected of being modified.

But anyways ms will just settle this case, they would lose big time if they actually went to court.

actually no, the person bringing the case would have to prove theirs was NOT modified. The plaintiff has the burden of proof

[SovietSlayer]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 03:29 PM)

actually no, the person bringing the case would have to prove theirs was NOT modified. The plaintiff has the burden of proof

no because microsoft is the one charging the people with the "crime" of having a modded console.

[medievil]

QUOTE(SovietSlayer @ Nov 25 2009, 01:06 AM)

no because microsoft is the one charging the people with the "crime" of having a modded console.

M$ isn't charging/suing anyone.. they have no burden of proof..
 The Plaintiff has to prove they did not modify their console before a case could even be held over...
What you expect a court is going to say M$ you are accused of unfairly banning this console without proof??
It is ALWAYS on the accuser to prove they have been wronged and since M$ isn't accusing anyone of anything it isn't on them...

you can't just sue someone without having ANY evidence to begin with, you'd get thrown out of court and ordered to pay the costs of wasting the courts time.

Now if the Plaintiff can prove they didn't mod their console, THEN Microsoft would have to provide proof or evidence as to why they banned it.

Otherwise M$ just has to say the console was modified and per their procedures it was banned... Plaintiff has the burden to prove their case

This post has been edited by medievil: Today, 01:24 AM

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 09:06 PM)

The system was modded

Allegedly - historically it's been proven that MS have made more than one screw-up in this area, so it would be fair to say that they could be wrong.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 09:06 PM)

which mean it likely has pirated games installed to HD

Likely? I'm afraid that's not good enough. It would be unlawful to damage someone's personal data on the SUSPICION that they are committing a crime. Yes, your game saves are classified as personal data. MS might own the code which keeps them licensed to your gamertag, but the content is yours. Maliciously damaging it so it cannot be used on another console without absolute proof (or a court ruling) would be deemed as unlawful in the majority of territories MS operate in.

What do you think would happen if MS decided to block ALL access to Windows/Office (and related documents) on the suspicion of an unlicensed copy of the OS/Application? By your definition they are allowed to do this, however I'm sure a court of law would see it much differently and would argue that whilst in principle MS would be right in doing so, a far less destructive method could be implemented. This is why they just block updates (and exactly what they should do with the 360).

Finally, do you not think it coincidence that we're once again in October/November and another ban-wave hits right before the Holidays? If MSs intentions were to combat piracy, it would be a simple case of banning any suspicious consoles and advising the customer to call MS to get their 360 re-tested once they've removed any unauthorised modifications. It would mean the customer could revert their console and get it restested back for Xbox Live. Seeing as how accurate MS are banning people (you and a few others are adamant they don't make mistakes) it shouldn't take too much to clear the console and/or ban it should it ever be modified again.

Here's the bottom line - whilst this combats piracy and encourages people to use originals only, it doesn't sell consoles. MS are very aware how critical the Holiday season is to their figures so what better way to boost the numbers than to render all the suspected consoles useless for online AND offline gameplay (should you want to use it for originals and transfer a GT over to it). I do feel that they have gone too far this time and a lot of people will opt for Sony because of it.

I'm seeing you sticking up for MS at every turn and wonder whether you would actually be doing this should YOUR console be banned for no reason and then had to put up with a 3 hour conversation with a call centre, trying to convince them your console was untouched.

[medievil]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 25 2009, 01:33 AM)

Allegedly - historically it's been proven that MS have made more than one screw-up in this area, so it would be fair to say that they could be wrong.
Likely? I'm afraid that's not good enough. It would be unlawful to damage someone's personal data on the SUSPICION that they are committing a crime. Yes, your game saves are classified as personal data. MS might own the code which keeps them licensed to your gamertag, but the content is yours. Maliciously damaging it so it cannot be used on another console without absolute proof (or a court ruling) would be deemed as unlawful in the majority of territories MS operate in.

What do you think would happen if MS decided to block ALL access to Windows/Office (and related documents) on the suspicion of an unlicensed copy of the OS/Application? By your definition they are allowed to do this, however I'm sure a court of law would see it much differently and would argue that whilst in principle MS would be right in doing so, a far less destructive method could be implemented. This is why they just block updates (and exactly what they should do with the 360).

Finally, do you not think it coincidence that we're once again in October/November and another ban-wave hits right before the Holidays? If MSs intentions were to combat piracy, it would be a simple case of banning any suspicious consoles and advising the customer to call MS to get their 360 re-tested once they've removed any unauthorised modifications. It would mean the customer could revert their console and get it restested back for Xbox Live. Seeing as how accurate MS are banning people (you and a few others are adamant they don't make mistakes) it shouldn't take too much to clear the console and/or ban it should it ever be modified again.

Here's the bottom line - whilst this combats piracy and encourages people to use originals only, it doesn't sell consoles. MS are very aware how critical the Holiday season is to their figures so what better way to boost the numbers than to render all the suspected consoles useless for online AND offline gameplay (should you want to use it for originals and transfer a GT over to it). I do feel that they have gone too far this time and a lot of people will opt for Sony because of it.

I'm seeing you sticking up for MS at every turn and wonder whether you would actually be doing this should YOUR console be banned for no reason and then had to put up with a 3 hour conversation with a call centre, trying to convince them your console was untouched.

Historically some have "Said" their unmodded console was banned... that could all be bunk....

And again, M$ didn't destroy anyone's personal data, they simply made it impossible to MOVE said data to another console because said data was obtain questionably...

And under the current detection schemes, I highly doubt Microsoft doesn't know 100% your console is modded. That alone gives them full authority over their code to alter it.


And yes is my unmoddded console was banned by mistake, I would still say M$ has every right.. I'd simply got to the live forums and take the steps to have mine retested...

This post has been edited by medievil: Today, 01:46 AM

[SovietSlayer]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 04:22 PM)

M$ isn't charging/suing anyone.. they have no burden of proof..
 The Plaintiff has to prove they did not modify their console before a case could even be held over...
What you expect a court is going to say M$ you are accused of unfairly banning this console without proof??
It is ALWAYS on the accuser to prove they have been wronged and since M$ isn't accusing anyone of anything it isn't on them...

you can't just sue someone without having ANY evidence to begin with, you'd get thrown out of court and ordered to pay the costs of wasting the courts time.

Now if the Plaintiff can prove they didn't mod their console, THEN Microsoft would have to provide proof or evidence as to why they banned it.

Otherwise M$ just has to say the console was modified and per their procedures it was banned... Plaintiff has the burden to prove their case

WHAT?!?!?!

Alright listen up MS is the one displaying a message essentially saying 'you are banned for unauthorized etc' And because MS has deemed you guilty of said crime, they are disabling your online service and damaging your property (console and content)

Of course MS isnt charging you in court because they would a) have to reveal how they determined you are guilty (any modders listening?) and they would most likely first need to obtain a search warrent to raid your house so they would actually have some hard evidence. ...

Maybe i can make this simple, its like getting arrested and being sent to prison. Sorry here in america, you have rights. But if you dont know your rights too bad soo sad. MS is essentially doing the samething as that example, stripping you of due process, they are charging you with a crime, punishing you and giving you no right to defend yourself. That in it of itself is unconstituational.

...c) which is why If MS ever did lose in a court then you can bet they would have to end there unlawful practice of banning consoles. And thats why they will never go to court.
 

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 04:44 PM)

And again, M$ didn't destroy anyone's personal data, they simply made it impossible to MOVE said data to another console because said data was obtain questionably...

Damaging the data which is what was done is the samething as destorying it since it no longer possess the features it used to.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 04:44 PM)

And under the current detection schemes, I highly doubt Microsoft doesn't know 100% your console is modded. That alone gives them full authority over their code to alter it.

MS has to LEGALLY prove that for it to be binding.

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 25 2009, 12:44 AM)

Historically some have "Said" their unmodded console was banned... that could all be bunk....

And again, M$ didn't destroy anyone's personal data, they simply made it impossible to MOVE said data to another console because said data was obtain questionably...

And under the current detection schemes, I highly doubt Microsoft doesn't know 100% your console is modded. That alone gives them full authority over their code to alter it.

By making it so you cannot move your save game to another console, your personal data has been compromised. We never asked for our save games to be locked in such a way that they can't be transferred freely - that was Microsoft's choice. The OOTB functionality at launch was to allow you to move your GamerTag and subsequent save games from one console to another. By MS removing this ability, should your 360 become damaged/lost/stolen the data is irretrievable.

I didn't refer to it as being destroyed - that was your definition. However, you might want to look up the word yourself:

http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/destroy

My favourite: to ruin; spoil; render useless

Your personal data is destroyed as it cannot be used away from the console, which was possible before MS decided to play Judge, Jury and Executioner on a SUSPICION that your console is breaching their ToS.

For the record, most of us live in a Democracy, not under Facist rule.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 25 2009, 12:44 AM)

And yes is my unmoddded console was banned by mistake, I would still say M$ has every right.. I'd simply got to the live forums and take the steps to have mine retested...

...which totally contradicts your above statement. Either they know 100% or they don't. If they are 100% sure your console is modded then no mistakes are made.

I'm sure you would be happy to spend 2-3 hours on the phone trying to convince MS that your console is untouched, only to keep having the call centre operative tell you they're not able to give out information and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Boooooommm]

lol.... Nobody that was banned for really modifying their system is complaining about the ban! The issue is directly related to the stuff they took away with it that they shouldn't have! Can you guys read or are you simply here to start controversy?

[ddamnage]

my only question is, is it legal for them to "spy" on what u did with your hardware? kinda seems like invasion of privacy. i mean, that seems like it can't be legal to run a scan on your hardware...at least not with your permission.

i could be wrong...anyone know the laws on that?

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(iwstid @ Nov 25 2009, 11:54 AM)

You know what I would love to see, if this case actually makes it to court. A big fat counter sue by MS sueing a couple of people that have pirated games. That would be so awsome. Just to see the look on their faces. People whining "I bought the xbox it's mah propertah I cun do wha I wun!!". And then MS says;" sure here is a counter claim with a 2 year sentence on your a$$ copyright's a bitch!!".

Pray tell how would they prove you were using pirated software? They're getting it wrong NOW so without an absolute method of detection, it would never hold up in court.

QUOTE(catman25 @ Nov 25 2009, 02:22 PM)

i got a issue ! i just recieved my xbox back from microfost ( it was a red light fix) obviosly they didnt sen the same one back ! ive been promissin myself not to hack it till after new firmware comes out but i accidentally put a copy of cod4 and it booted up ! now what happens if I get banned ? How many people had this issue ? Obviosly they are dismantling the parts and fixing the issue or else they would have to rekey all the parts and thus it would over write the firmware right ?

So you're saying you've modified it already?

If so, more fool you if you're that worried about being banned.

[Boooooommm]

...how do you "accidentally" put a burnt copy into an Xbox 360? ...

By the way, as far as I know Microsoft can only detect the hacked firmware and not that the game running is actually a pirate copy. Which because one is true wouldn't mean the other has to be. I can have a modded system but not one backup and also the opposite could be true. There's no 100% certainty. The only thing MS could do is ban you from the service for using modified hardware... that's it! You can't be accused based on assumption. In any case, I think it would be regarded as Circumstantial evidence. You can't win a case based on that lol

[catman25]

didnt really think i had to explain the entire story ! when modern warfare2 came out we had a lan and hook 7 xbox together . I told my friend i got banned and i brought my unmodded online console he said right and put his disk in to show me up ! when it loaded I flipped , just the fact that 3 days before this i recieved it from microsoft as a 3rod return. obviosly they dont send you back the same xbox so I got someones fixed hack shit / now im pissed cause my suposed unmodded xbox is in fact a modded console

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(catman25 @ Nov 25 2009, 06:20 PM)

didnt really think i had to explain the entire story !

Well to be fair it always helps to know the full background otherwise the information given may be false.

So, you got a refurbished unit back which is already modified. I'd phone them and let them know this - I'd even go so far as to demand a brand new replacement unit as if you hadn't spotted the fault, you would have subsequently been banned and needed to purchase one yourself.

[Chancer]

QUOTE(ddamnage @ Nov 25 2009, 02:29 PM)

my only question is, is it legal for them to "spy" on what u did with your hardware? kinda seems "like invasion of privacy." i mean, that seems like it can't be legal to run a scan on your hardware...at least not with your permission.

i could be wrong...anyone know the laws on that?

More accurately " An Invasion of Piracy"    

[ddamnage]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Nov 25 2009, 02:35 PM)

More accurately " An Invasion of Piracy"    

i get that...and im not bitching, not complaining...as i dont even go online, i have an unbanned console..til i plug in at least....

granted, yes it is to combat piracy...BUT...does that give them the right to look at OUR hardware? Is it anywhere in there TOS that states that we are giving them permission to look at our console? It seems like that may the key to get this all solved. I am no lawyer, but, I do know they have to have permission to look at your hardware.