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[mogwaimon]

QUOTE

In order to register with Xbox Live, a VERIFIED payment method is REQUIRED (in the USA) EVEN those prepay cards, REQUIRE you to register a cc#, bank account#, or PayPal account. ALL of which by law HAVE to have a legal adult on the account. (even if it is intended for your brat's use, YOU CO-SIGNED said account to OPEN it. IF that account was used towards the purchase of the XL service, you are assuming responsibility for the Minor you gave access to YOUR account (You being the LEGAL (in theory responsible) ADULT for it, are responsible and obligated to know what was agreed to (TOS & EULA) during that transaction. Pretty sure I recall something about age during the sign-up process and that verified account was the PROOF of your age, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to legally open an account in the USA without an emancipated minor or a legal adult, both of which are the same thing!)

I do not think that's true. I've got multiple accounts that have had Gold at one point or another and only my main account has any payment options linked to it. The rest got free Gold with no prompt for a CC through the console's free Gold 1-month trial option. This may be because all of my accounts were made on the same console, but I can't test to be sure seeing as I only have one console

[medievil]

QUOTE(ccfman2004 @ Nov 24 2009, 04:53 AM)

Except the offline version requires the disc and the LIVE version does not.

For the last time, when you install from a disc, it is NOT related to LIVE at all.

doesn't matter, still the same process of installing to the HD...

anyway it is ridiculous... in court you have to show harm.. I can see it now..

Plaintiff: I can't install my game to HD
Judge: can you play it from disk as it is designed??
Plaintiff: Yes
Judge: Cass dismissed...

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(mogwaimon @ Nov 24 2009, 11:10 AM)

I do not think that's true. I've got multiple accounts that have had Gold at one point or another and only my main account has any payment options linked to it. The rest got free Gold with no prompt for a CC through the console's free Gold 1-month trial option. This may be because all of my accounts were made on the same console, but I can't test to be sure seeing as I only have one console

When I signed up for xbox live, I never had to enter a Credit Card, even when I used a pre-paid gold card.

I only entered a credit card when I wanted to buy points when not using a pre-paid points card.  Same when my minor sister signed up.

[mike171562]

QUOTE(pimmpinn @ Nov 21 2009, 05:13 PM)

i would like to to know the laws stand, on minors agreeing to the tos
last i checked there's no age limit on buying an xbox or live card.

Good point, I believe you have to be 18 years of age to be bound to a contract.

[jaynigs]

QUOTE(insanityforall @ Nov 24 2009, 07:56 AM)

In order to register with Xbox Live, a VERIFIED payment method is REQUIRED (in the USA)  EVEN those prepay cards, REQUIRE you to register a cc#, bank account#, or PayPal account.  ALL of which by law HAVE to have a legal adult on the account.  (even if it is intended for your brat's use, YOU CO-SIGNED said account to OPEN it.  IF that account was used towards the purchase of the XL service, you are assuming responsibility for the Minor you gave access to YOUR account (You being the LEGAL (in theory responsible) ADULT for it, are responsible and obligated to know what was agreed to (TOS & EULA) during that transaction.  Pretty sure I recall something about age during the sign-up process and that verified account was the PROOF of your age, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to legally open an account in the USA without an emancipated minor or a legal adult, both of which are the same thing!)
As long as you LEFT that console unconnected to Xbox Live, you WOULD still have those capabilities, but NOPE, a "responsible adult" (Do they exist?) agreed to that VISIBLE Xbox Live TOS, that permitted them to REMOVE the Protected/Liscensed/Copyrighted SOFTWARE from the said "compromised" 360.  

Signing up for live needs all that huh?

Funny, as i just signed up a new gold tag 5 minutes ago, didnt need any of this info, it allowed me to SKIP the step where you enter payment info, and i was granted live gold access by entering only a small amount of information, which could easily have been done by a minor.


as i previously stated, i have no interest in microsofts TOS,  the law and my rights take precedence... always

Also, even if i wanted more than a year gold, i just go and get a prepaid card, scratch the code off, and redeem it online, again no need for credit card info...  

If you are going to contribute to this thread, at least get it right, and please do not assume i live in america, because.... tada!  i don't

and just for reference, i don't personally have a banned 360..

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 10:10 AM)

doesn't matter, still the same process of installing to the HD...

anyway it is ridiculous... in court you have to show harm.. I can see it now..

Plaintiff: I can't install my game to HD
Judge: can you play it from disk as it is designed??
Plaintiff: Yes
Judge: Cass dismissed...

Are you just spoiling for a fight, or intentionally spinning this to suit your argument?

Here's how it goes:

Plaintiff: Microsoft have removed functionality introduced at launch and more recently over the last 12 months on a SUSPICION that my console MIGHT be modified.

Judge: Aren't these just extras which Microsoft introduced via Xbox Live and therefore removed them once you violated the Terms of Service?

Plaintiff: No - the ability to move your GamerTag from one 360 to another has been in place since November 2005 and there's nothing on their list of features which state it won't work on consoles which have been declined access to Xbox Live. Not only that, but the 'Install to HDD' feature which again was heavily advertised has also been removed without any warning.

Judge: So the console isn't working as advertised?

Plaintiff: Correct, thus breaching the Sale of Goods Act.

Judge: Microsoft are hereby ordered to replace the plaintiff's console with one fully functioning, free of charge. Case closed.

 

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 24 2009, 05:27 PM)

Are you just spoiling for a fight, or intentionally spinning this to suit your argument?

Here's how it goes:

Plaintiff: Microsoft have removed functionality introduced at launch and more recently over the last 12 months on a SUSPICION that my console MIGHT be modified.

Judge: Aren't these just extras which Microsoft introduced via Xbox Live and therefore removed them once you violated the Terms of Service?

Plaintiff: No - the ability to move your GamerTag from one 360 to another has been in place since November 2005 and there's nothing on their list of features which state it won't work on consoles which have been declined access to Xbox Live. Not only that, but the 'Install to HDD' feature which again was heavily advertised has also been removed without any warning.

Judge: So the console isn't working as advertised?

Plaintiff: Correct, thus breaching the Sale of Goods Act.

Judge: Microsoft are hereby ordered to replace the plaintiff's console with one fully functioning, free of charge. Case closed.

 

+1

[medievil]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 24 2009, 05:27 PM)

Are you just spoiling for a fight, or intentionally spinning this to suit your argument?

Here's how it goes:

Plaintiff: Microsoft have removed functionality introduced at launch and more recently over the last 12 months on a SUSPICION that my console MIGHT be modified.

Judge: Aren't these just extras which Microsoft introduced via Xbox Live and therefore removed them once you violated the Terms of Service?

Plaintiff: No - the ability to move your GamerTag from one 360 to another has been in place since November 2005 and there's nothing on their list of features which state it won't work on consoles which have been declined access to Xbox Live. Not only that, but the 'Install to HDD' feature which again was heavily advertised has also been removed without any warning.

Judge: So the console isn't working as advertised?

Plaintiff: Correct, thus breaching the Sale of Goods Act.

Judge: Microsoft are hereby ordered to replace the plaintiff's console with one fully functioning, free of charge. Case closed.

 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/jester.gif)

lol..you are joking right...
 Conveniently I see you left out mentioning that the console has been modified from stock...and thus any presumed features no longer working are no longer applicable.
 IF your console was stock, sure you could use your argument, but it isn't. You modified it, At the point you modify it, there is no longer any enforceable "sale of goods act"
Microsoft could simply argue that they have in place a security feature that detects modified consoles and that by modifying it, YOU caused the security to kick into affect..

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 06:44 PM)

lol..you are joking right...
 Conveniently I see you left out mentioning that the console has been modified from stock...and thus any presumed features no longer working are no longer applicable.
 IF your console was stock, sure you could use your argument, but it isn't. You modified it, At the point you modify it, there is no longer any enforceable "sale of goods act"
Microsoft could simply argue that they have in place a security feature that detects modified consoles and that by modifying it, YOU caused the security to kick into affect..

Except that it only kicks in when you try to sign into live and you are given the ban message.

[1hotjob]

As I understand it MS has disabled the ability to use Datel memory cards. Consoled that have been modded have had their hard drives crippled.

What about the home made upgraded hard drives? I can't find any reports of them being crippled or the user banned. Anyone know if this is happening to the upgraded HDs?

[Boooooommm]

QUOTE(spac3d0g @ Nov 23 2009, 05:49 PM)

I wanted to add to this long thread the Xbox live TOS.

http://www.xbox.com/...gal/LiveTOU.htm

Microsoft will win any lawsuite regarding this issue brought forth because of this, and are well within thier rights to Ban Live functionality for all these users. Eveyone on Live accepted this TOS and these rules when signing up. Effectively you all are in a contract with MS and modified consoles are in violation of that contract and by the rules of that contract MS can take the actions it has outlined. ( I read all TOS for anything I am signing up to. You should all as well.)

Excerpt from the TOS that pertains to this disccussion:

Service Operation and Equipment.

The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com .  You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads), and that we have the right to send data , applications or other content to any software or hardware that you are using to access the Service for the express purpose of detecting an unauthorized modification. Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game , application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited and [/u]  Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security ,this contract or any additional terms incorporated or referenced in this contract, and such users may also incur criminal or civil liability.

..... THE SERVICE...over and over again... they have no right to modify the hardware in any way besides pertaining to the service... it's is more than explicit! Now, why do people keep thinking this gives them the right to remove features that go BEYOND the service? I am baffled!

You can argue that the HD is used for the service BUT it is not

1- A requirement to use the service
2- A peripheral made exclusively for the service.

The XBOX 360 is not Live exclusive hardware or you would be force to pay the Gold fee to even be able to use it (hence, it would have them be able to modify the hardware to their liking since one couldn't coexist without the other otherwise).

Now, if we spoke about Xbox Live Vision, otherwise useless offline, then yes, you are screwed because all the features of it require you to have a Gold Live account to take advantage of it.

Now, the HD is used to store local data PRIMARILY, including the ability to Install games to the hard drive to alleviate the lens stress and avoid game scratching (it can't be regarded as a luxury feature since it's available to everyone that has a HD installed) and SECONDLY to store Live content you can buy or download free during your use of the service.

Even then, yes, they are not modifying the drive in any way. They are modifying MY SYSTEM to sabotage MY DATA that is writen to MY HARD DRIVE but the system is already Live banned... so what harm is there in having the console continue to sign this data for itself? Now, if you said the console's written data was NOT Live valid, that would be a fair deal. Have my data and downloadable content work on other sysdtems but not be accepted as valid to Gamerscore point redeeming. But to make it invalid to other consoles as well is rather going overboard in security measures.

It would be fair to have this data even be rejected by the service if someone uses my HD to access this data online using the service, I mean, after all, this data was written from a forbidden system. But offline, it would still be available and fully functional.

That is what I understand would be fair... if MS took the time to develop all this background checking code then I am sure they can make less careless software to guarantee people their right to work with their system outside the service however they please. Modifying my hardware is my business. MS can only retaliate against me if I am modifying my system to use their service and even then, all they should do is limit my system from accesing the service.

Who here believes what I just proposed is unfair? It

1- Protects Microsoft and other Live users from the modified hardware's data by NOT accepting it while the system is on the Live service.
2- Protects the end customer's right to freely use their system as it was originally intended from its retail state even if they have been caught using the service on modified hardware.

This is the only way I'd find it fair for them to "corrupt" my data. It wouldn't be regarded as corruption, just as data undeemed for Live use... and MS has every right to in that case! But not outside of Live. That's just trespassing in my property.

[medievil]

QUOTE(Boooooommm @ Nov 24 2009, 08:35 PM)

..... THE SERVICE...over and over again... they have no right to modify the hardware in any way besides pertaining to the service... it's is more than explicit! Now, why do people keep thinking this gives them the right to remove features that go BEYOND the service? I am baffled!

You can argue that the HD is used for the service BUT it is not

1- A requirement to use the service
2- A peripheral made exclusively for the service.

The XBOX 360 is not Live exclusive hardware or you would be force to pay the Gold fee to even be able to use it (hence, it would have them be able to modify the hardware to their liking since one couldn't coexist without the other otherwise).

Now, if we spoke about Xbox Live Vision, otherwise useless offline, then yes, you are screwed because all the features of it require you to have a Gold Live account to take advantage of it.

Now, the HD is used to store local data PRIMARILY, including the ability to Install games to the hard drive to alleviate the lens stress and avoid game scratching (it can't be regarded as a luxury feature since it's available to everyone that has a HD installed) and SECONDLY to store Live content you can buy or download free during your use of the service.

Even then, yes, they are not modifying the drive in any way. They are modifying MY SYSTEM to sabotage MY DATA that is writen to MY HARD DRIVE but the system is already Live banned... so what harm is there in having the console continue to sign this data for itself? Now, if you said the console's written data was NOT Live valid, that would be a fair deal. Have my data and downloadable content work on other sysdtems but not be accepted as valid to Gamerscore point redeeming. But to make it invalid to other consoles as well is rather going overboard in security measures.

It would be fair to have this data even be rejected by the service if someone uses my HD to access this data online using the service, I mean, after all, this data was written from a forbidden system. But offline, it would still be available and fully functional.

That is what I understand would be fair... if MS took the time to develop all this background checking code then I am sure they can make less careless software to guarantee people their right to work with their system outside the service however they please. Modifying my hardware is my business. MS can only retaliate against me if I am modifying my system to use their service and even then, all they should do is limit my system from accesing the service.

Who here believes what I just proposed is unfair? It

1- Protects Microsoft and other Live users from the modified hardware's data by NOT accepting it while the system is on the Live service.
2- Protects the end customer's right to freely use their system as it was originally intended from its retail state even if they have been caught using the service on modified hardware.

This is the only way I'd find it fair for them to "corrupt" my data. It wouldn't be regarded as corruption, just as data undeemed for Live use... and MS has every right to in that case! But not outside of Live. That's just trespassing in my property.

What M$ did id completely fair.. the system was modded, which mean it likely has pirated games installed to HD.. Why on earth would Anyone think that M$ would still continue to allow stolen games to be installed on the HD??

You can argue that it is modifying the hardware till you are blue in the face but it doesn't change the fact that the only tgig changed was software involving the Dashboard and M$ has every legal right to modify it's own code at anytiem and state that they can and will if they detect the console has been modified.
Doesn't matter if it is legal in a country to modify it or not, M$ still has the legal right to modify it's own code for whatever reason they deem needed...

[Boooooommm]

.... as I pointed out, the TOS only binds me and MS as long as I use the XBL service and is also limited to things pertaining to the service. You can talk all you want about them having the right to pulverize the system if they chose because you modified it but the fact of the matter is that MS doesn't have the right to modify my system in ways I never never agreed to even if the system is made by them or if the code running my system is theirs. I need to know what is going to happen to my console if certain code is run or modified... that's a right because it's my property they're tampering with and MS is not above the damn law!

Updates are installed with absolutely no feature list (wether removed or added) or anything regarding security measure codes they might be installing. Everything is done behind our backs. All we are told during these updates is that the system might die if we reboot during its installation. That's it! And you are forced to do them because they block you from Live if you refuse to update and new games refuse to run if you're not completely up to date anyway.

By agreeing to the TOS I give MS the right to revoke my Live service privileges and modify any features regarding to the service. Not anything beyond that. Your argument is perhaps defined by morals? Even then, if you accept this you're letting a company rule what you can or cannot do with the products they sell you and that's not their place. There's a Judicial system to deal with criminals. MS should simply refer those to the proper authorities instead of taking matters into their own hands.

[SovietSlayer]

QUOTE(Chancer @ Nov 22 2009, 08:21 AM)

You couldn't really have got that more wrong
 

 Actually according to firefox you are wrong
http://geotool.flagf....xbox-scene.com

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 09:44 AM)

lol..you are joking right...
Conveniently I see you left out mentioning that the console has been modified from stock...and thus any presumed features no longer working are no longer applicable.
IF your console was stock, sure you could use your argument, but it isn't. You modified it, At the point you modify it, there is no longer any enforceable "sale of goods act"
Microsoft could simply argue that they have in place a security feature that detects modified consoles and that by modifying it, YOU caused the security to kick into affect..

but ms would have to PROVE all the consoles were actually modified and not just suspected of being modified.

But anyways ms will just settle this case, they would lose big time if they actually went to court.

[1hotjob]

QUOTE

And you are forced to do them because they block you from Live if you refuse to update and new games refuse to run if you're not completely up to date anyway.

According to most people's logic - I bought this Xbox 360 and a game. It is my right to do what I want with it. That is fine. Play your game. Play any game that was released at the time your console was made. If you want to play a new game with newer features, your Xbox will need to be updated. If you don't want these new features and the ability to play newer games, don't buy them and don't do the updates.

I buy all games I play on XBL. I don't play very many because I can't afford them. If my friends are playing a certain game and I want to join them, I buy it.

Do what you want with your system. Don't cheat in games when playing on Live and don't play with copies of games on Live. If I mod a system the first thing I tell them is that they can't play on Live. If someone is a hard core player on Live, I tell them not to mod their system. Get a second one to mod if they want.