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[spac3d0g]

I wanted to add to this long thread the Xbox live TOS.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/legal/LiveTOU.htm

Microsoft will win any lawsuite regarding this issue brought forth because of this, and are well within thier rights to Ban Live functionality for all these users. Eveyone on Live accepted this TOS and these rules when signing up. Effectively you all are in a contract with MS and modified consoles are in violation of that contract and by the rules of that contract MS can take the actions it has outlined. ( I read all TOS for anything I am signing up to. You should all as well.)

Excerpt from the TOS that pertains to this disccussion:

Service Operation and Equipment.

The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com .  You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads), and that we have the right to send data , applications or other content to any software or hardware that you are using to access the Service for the express purpose of detecting an unauthorized modification.   Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game , application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited and [/u]  Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security ,this contract or any additional terms incorporated or referenced in this contract, and such users may also incur criminal or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service.  Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; ( retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer, and any connected peripheral device ....

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(spac3d0g @ Nov 23 2009, 10:49 PM)

I wanted to add to this long thread the Xbox live TOS.

http://www.xbox.com/...gal/LiveTOU.htm

Microsoft will win any lawsuite regarding this issue brought forth because of this, and are well within thier rights to Ban Live functionality for all these users. Eveyone on Live accepted this TOS and these rules when signing up. Effectively you all are in a contract with MS and modified consoles are in violation of that contract and by the rules of that contract MS can take the actions it has outlined. ( I read all TOS for anything I am signing up to. You should all as well.)

Excerpt from the TOS that pertains to this disccussion:

Service Operation and Equipment.

The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer, or other device authorized by us, or by logging into your account via Xbox.com .  You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., through unauthorized repairs, unauthorized upgrades, or unauthorized downloads), and that we have the right to send data , applications or other content to any software or hardware that you are using to access the Service for the express purpose of detecting an unauthorized modification.   Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes the Service, any game , application, or other content available or accessible through the Service, or any hardware or software associated with the Service or with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console is strictly prohibited and [/u]  Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security ,this contract or any additional terms incorporated or referenced in this contract, and such users may also incur criminal or civil liability.

Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service.  Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; ( retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer, and any connected peripheral device ....

Just because it is in the Terms of Service does not mean it is legal or morally right.

Install to hard drive and corrupting profiles is not part of live.  If the install to hard drive feature was live exclusive, you would be required to be on live in order to use it, plus it would not be on game discs as a system update.

Plus everyone has their right to privacy.  Installing software to identify a user's system or user themselves could be deem a breech of privacy.

I don't care about live, I just want the features that have been removed to be put back.

[tpformbh]

QUOTE(tactical @ Nov 23 2009, 10:36 PM)

You are a venomous person to write like you do, the guy states he on his arcade CAN copy a game to his hard drive and it was never ONLINE , so if the feature comes store bought with that feature that he likes,  why are you accusing him of all this crap.  Guy why are you writing like you do, why?  Does it make you feel important or superior. Many of us that have modded 360's want to know if MS overstepped the line, that's all.  And people like you just bring such a Negative spirit into the room.  I understand you think you are helping this guy or us, but , it is a strange way to do it.  

Venomous is quite a strong word, but perhaps a better one is the number of 'delusional' people out there who think that Microsoft owes them something.

Where's the proof that a stock console out of the box can do what he says?  It's all conjecture, and it's all differing views over the internet, no one's posted any proof yet.

You know full well that this talk of a lawsuit is absolutely ridiculous.  I've all the time in the world for people who say 'right, i flashed it, it's got banned, oh well it was fun while it lasted' but look at all the crap being posted on here - the number of people claiming to make their own backups is unbelievable.  I only check on here because i'm interested in how the scene is developing and because a friend has a flashed box but not much technical nous so I end up advising him on what to do - at the minute he's not plugged it into the router since the ban wave, but as he doesn't have Live, he probably won't ever plug it in again.

I pay for my 360 games, I understand the viewpoint that people with copied games aren't harming live in the way that modded controllers are - I fully agree.  I don't feel bad for the people who got banned for flashing their consoles.  I don't mean that to sound superior, I apologise if it came accross that way - I have a modded wii, but as yet Nintendo doesn't ban consoles so there you go. But people were fully aware that microsoft restricted Live access and the DIVX codec last time round, so why are people so suprised that they've upped the ante this time?

Even better is the people saying they are moving to the PS3 in protest.  Right, so you wouldn't pay for games on the 360, but you're willing to pay on the PS3?  Or if we take this 'backup so they don't get scratched' routine, how are you planning to backup your PS3 disks?

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(tpformbh @ Nov 23 2009, 10:03 PM)

Where's the proof that a stock console out of the box can do what he says?

ANY Xbox 360 shipped with NXE has the ability to install to HDD without going near XBL.

If that's not enough, EVERY Xbox 360 (even at launch) had the ability to move a GamerTag from one console to another.

You need to disassociate the XBL service with functionality as aside from divx licensing, everything can be achieved without ever connecting your console to it.

QUOTE(tpformbh @ Nov 23 2009, 10:03 PM)

I've all the time in the world for people who say 'right, i flashed it, it's got banned, oh well it was fun while it lasted' but look at all the crap being posted on here - the number of people claiming to make their own backups is unbelievable.

I've not seen anyone complain about being banned from XBL. From here it's all about MS corrupting people's personal data.

QUOTE(tpformbh @ Nov 23 2009, 10:03 PM)

Even better is the people saying they are moving to the PS3 in protest.  Right, so you wouldn't pay for games on the 360, but you're willing to pay on the PS3?  Or if we take this 'backup so they don't get scratched' routine, how are you planning to backup your PS3 disks?

1. I buy my games and have moved to PS3. Reason? When a company get to the point where they don't care about local laws, innocent people being denied access to paid-for services and are not prepared to do anything about it, I stop giving them money. I've got about 30 games for the 360 and won't be buying any more. I'll phase them out eventually and just mod my untouched 360 for 'offline' use.

2. BD-ROMs have a much better scratch resistant coating. Not only that, but the rpm on the PS3 is much lower (as well as the BD drive being much better built). I've not seen one account of a PS3 creating radial scratches on a disc as yet, unlike the 360 which must have ruined thousands (all of which should be replaced for free due to a faulty drive, but no - MS see it as a chance to make even more profit on something their faulty equipment is causing).

[mogana]

QUOTE(en3myx0fxg0d @ Nov 21 2009, 10:28 PM)

Heres a splittin-hairs type of argument. everyone seems to be very focused on the "pirating" aspects of a modified firmware. well what if you've never played a pirated game, what if you did it because the DVD was failing or not working properly (i'm speaking in the strictest hypothetically). So modified does not equal pirate. its my hardware I can do as I please, if we're to throw out the Xbox live terms of service. My computer if I want to overclock a CPU or graphics card I can regardless of how the manufacturer sent it to me its MY stuff now. Now they can choose to say hey something went wrong with it you went outside our specs we can't help and thats fine, thats the risk i took.

An interesting argument is Water pipes commonly known as bongs. now of course everyone says immediately its a bong its for pot. well that my end up being the case but they are sold as "water pipes" which allows them to be sold at all. now what you choose to do with that once you purchase it is entirely up to you. I know it all comes back to the TOS but as with most cases its YOUR stuff nothing illegal has been done until you steal that first game.  

Im sure alot of people will be able to put holes in this so fire away.

Yes what you buy is what you get... a game console which after banned still function as a game console. You can modified and play games with it just not on LIVE. why complain since you still can play games on it offline which the hardware you bought is for "to PLAY GAMES". Yes you own your console. so mod away . Just don't complain when you can't use your modded console on LIVE.

[tpformbh]

QUOTE(Martinchris23 @ Nov 24 2009, 12:41 AM)

ANY Xbox 360 shipped with NXE has the ability to install to HDD without going near XBL.

If that's not enough, EVERY Xbox 360 (even at launch) had the ability to move a GamerTag from one console to another.

You need to disassociate the XBL service with functionality as aside from divx licensing, everything can be achieved without ever connecting your console to it.
I've not seen anyone complain about being banned from XBL. From here it's all about MS corrupting people's personal data.
1. I buy my games and have moved to PS3. Reason? When a company get to the point where they don't care about local laws, innocent people being denied access to paid-for services and are not prepared to do anything about it, I stop giving them money. I've got about 30 games for the 360 and won't be buying any more. I'll phase them out eventually and just mod my untouched 360 for 'offline' use.

2. BD-ROMs have a much better scratch resistant coating. Not only that, but the rpm on the PS3 is much lower (as well as the BD drive being much better built). I've not seen one account of a PS3 creating radial scratches on a disc as yet, unlike the 360 which must have ruined thousands (all of which should be replaced for free due to a faulty drive, but no - MS see it as a chance to make even more profit on something their faulty equipment is causing).

If your first point is true then how is it being revoked?  From what I've read there is some kind of licensing key/certificate needed to install games?  Genuine question, I am interested, there just seems to be so much conflicting info on the net that I don't know who to believe.

Perhaps I should expand on my other point - why are people complaining when they knew there were rammifications when they modded their console?  Microsoft shifted the goalposts in what can only be described as a game with no rules, people knew the risks.

Re. 2.  Well, install your games to the 360 hard drive and there's even less chance of it getting scratched than a PS3 game   devil's advocate there hey.

[medievil]

QUOTE(tpformbh @ Nov 24 2009, 12:02 AM)

If your first point is true then how is it being revoked?  From what I've read there is some kind of licensing key/certificate needed to install games?  Genuine question, I am interested, there just seems to be so much conflicting info on the net that I don't know who to believe.

Perhaps I should expand on my other point - why are people complaining when they knew there were rammifications when they modded their console?  Microsoft shifted the goalposts in what can only be described as a game with no rules, people knew the risks.

Re. 2.  Well, install your games to the 360 hard drive and there's even less chance of it getting scratched than a PS3 game   devil's advocate there hey.

the key is on the 360 from the factory.. when it is detected as being modified the key is revoked and all features that need the key will no longer work and any data signed by the revoked key will corrupt on any box that is valid...

M$ supply's the key to certified and valid un modded 360's, they have every right to revoke said key if the consoel is modified against their TOS.

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 01:59 AM)

the key is on the 360 from the factory.. when it is detected as being modified the key is revoked and all features that need the key will no longer work and any data signed by the revoked key will corrupt on any box that is valid...

M$ supply's the key to certified and valid un modded 360's, they have every right to revoke said key if the consoel is modified against their TOS.

Thanks to that, I have an offline profile I can no longer use.

[jaynigs]

QUOTE(No_Name @ Nov 21 2009, 01:44 AM)

Also, Microsoft in the system EULA and TOS for live state clearly that they can add or remove features any time they like.

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 12:59 AM)

M$ supply's the key to certified and valid un modded 360's, they have every right to revoke said key if the consoel is modified against their TOS.

Microsoft could say in the TOS or EULA that they can come round and fist my aunt, don't make it legal..  

Just like other Terms of Service agreements, and most patents that end up in court, a large portion of them are thrown out and do not hold up.



Also, as for the statement about agreeing to the TOS when signing up for live, if it was done illegally by a minor it is null and void.

Besides, the hard drive issue is the problem here for most, when someone purchases an xbox today, they purchase it on its current features, if they break the LIVE TOS, then it is an understandable course of action to prevent that box going back onto xbox live, but they cannot disable features not pertaining to xbox live and the xbox live service! especially for consoles that were shipped with this feature, the reason i mention this last part is because some numpty is bound to say the hdd install option was a live update, this is NOT true if the console was shipped with this function..

[medievil]

QUOTE(jaynigs @ Nov 24 2009, 03:31 AM)

Microsoft could say in the TOS or EULA that they can come round and fist my aunt, don't make it legal..  

Just like other Terms of Service agreements, and most patents that end up in court, a large portion of them are thrown out and do not hold up.
Also, as for the statement about agreeing to the TOS when signing up for live, if it was done illegally by a minor it is null and void.

Besides, the hard drive issue is the problem here for most, when someone purchases an xbox today, they purchase it on its current features, if they break the LIVE TOS, then it is an understandable course of action to prevent that box going back onto xbox live, but they cannot disable features not pertaining to xbox live and the xbox live service! especially for consoles that were shipped with this feature, the reason i mention this last part is because some numpty is bound to say the hdd install option was a live update, this is NOT true if the console was shipped with this function..

ummm HD installs ARE related to the live service, or did you forget you can purchase games online and DL to HD?? the Exact same process is involved...the only difference is one is streamed from disk, the other download otherwise both are installed to the HD.

also M$ owns the dashboard, they can enable or disable features  at anytime.. read the CONSOLE EULA...

[Martinchris23]

QUOTE(tpformbh @ Nov 23 2009, 11:02 PM)

Re. 2.  Well, install your games to the 360 hard drive and there's even less chance of it getting scratched than a PS3 game   devil's advocate there hey.

If I only use the PS3 I eliminate the chance of my 360 ruining any originals, so it's a non sequitor.

Besides, why should I even take the risk when at any given time MS could ban my console for no reason, leaving me no choice but to spend a couple of hours on the phone to them to resolve it? sorry, I really don't have that sort of time available.

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(medievil @ Nov 24 2009, 04:47 AM)

ummm HD installs ARE related to the live service, or did you forget you can purchase games online and DL to HD?? the Exact same process is involved...the only difference is one is streamed from disk, the other download otherwise both are installed to the HD.

also M$ owns the dashboard, they can enable or disable features  at anytime.. read the CONSOLE EULA...

Except the offline version requires the disc and the LIVE version does not.

For the last time, when you install from a disc, it is NOT related to LIVE at all.

[nachomans]

Never seen a thread with so many recently registered users    

[ccfman2004]

QUOTE(nachomans @ Nov 24 2009, 05:01 AM)

Never seen a thread with so many recently registered users    

Makes me wonder.

[insanityforall]

QUOTE(jaynigs @ Nov 23 2009, 08:31 PM)

Microsoft could say in the TOS or EULA that they can come round and fist my aunt, don't make it legal..  

Just like other Terms of Service agreements, and most patents that end up in court, a large portion of them are thrown out and do not hold up.
Also, as for the statement about agreeing to the TOS when signing up for live, if it was done illegally by a minor it is null and void.

Besides, the hard drive issue is the problem here for most, when someone purchases an xbox today, they purchase it on its current features, if they break the LIVE TOS, then it is an understandable course of action to prevent that box going back onto xbox live, but they cannot disable features not pertaining to xbox live and the xbox live service! especially for consoles that were shipped with this feature, the reason i mention this last part is because some numpty is bound to say the hdd install option was a live update, this is NOT true if the console was shipped with this function..

In order to register with Xbox Live, a VERIFIED payment method is REQUIRED (in the USA)  EVEN those prepay cards, REQUIRE you to register a cc#, bank account#, or PayPal account.  ALL of which by law HAVE to have a legal adult on the account.  (even if it is intended for your brat's use, YOU CO-SIGNED said account to OPEN it.  IF that account was used towards the purchase of the XL service, you are assuming responsibility for the Minor you gave access to YOUR account (You being the LEGAL (in theory responsible) ADULT for it, are responsible and obligated to know what was agreed to (TOS & EULA) during that transaction.  Pretty sure I recall something about age during the sign-up process and that verified account was the PROOF of your age, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to legally open an account in the USA without an emancipated minor or a legal adult, both of which are the same thing!)


As long as you LEFT that console unconnected to Xbox Live, you WOULD still have those capabilities, but NOPE, a "responsible adult" (Do they exist?) agreed to that VISIBLE Xbox Live TOS, that permitted them to REMOVE the Protected/Liscensed/Copyrighted SOFTWARE from the said "compromised" 360.  

IT sucks I know, but you know what!  Some wonderful Russian enabled these abilities for us again.  So what the heck is the problem?  Get off your arse and edit your Nand!  

Now for those people who don't CLAIM but actually DO have a unmodified console-banned console.  Without opening, etc... it.  Please, quit bitching and SUE the crap out of MS, don't forget about your ¿ pain and suffering ? $$$   .  Do NOT worry about the legal bills, when you are 100% in the right, you can include in your petition that the LOSER of the case pays ALL LEGAL FEES AND COURT COSTS FOR BOTH PARTIES!

Now I'm off to read the statutes that the Datel corporation refers to in their case.  The things I do when I'm out of weed.   WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


Anybody looking to sue them?  My brother is on the CA Bar and resides in Sacramento.