Print

[XBOB LIVE]

okay, so i bought some crack off this dude on the corner last week, and they said it wouldnt kill me, now im dead.  you think thats deceptive??  sure it sounds good in thooery, but since it is stated in the eula and they made the comment before xbox live was available... you dont stand a chance. now if they came out and said now i wouldnt be banned regardless of the eula then you may, just may get a refund.  im an intelectual property rights lawyer (nothing to do with computers or software, mostly physics patents n things like that. im a scientist i just explain to the lawyers what they are looking at.) anyways, ms would tear you to shreads.

[emoney]

QUOTE (XBOB LIVE @ Nov 30 2002, 03:48 AM)

okay, so i bought some crack off this dude on the corner last week, and they said it wouldnt kill me, now im dead.  you think thats deceptive??  sure it sounds good in thooery, but since it is stated in the eula and they made the comment before xbox live was available... you dont stand a chance. now if they came out and said now i wouldnt be banned regardless of the eula then you may, just may get a refund.  im an intelectual property rights lawyer (nothing to do with computers or software, mostly physics patents n things like that. im a scientist i just explain to the lawyers what they are looking at.) anyways, ms would tear you to shreads.

                                    deceptive practices include any statements prior to sale, and they told beta testers that they would not be detecting mod chips during beta as well.  It is in the EULA which makes it legal for them to ban you, but they deceived people into buying it before telling them they can't use it.  I haven't heard anyone get refused of a refund though have you?  


your crack example is funny though becase umm crack is illegal and the dealer isn't even a company.


Anyone legal action wouldn't be necessary unless they refused a refund which I dont' think they are.... Has anyone been refused a refund from MS?

[NetJunkie]

The EULA on the Live kit clearly states you can be banned.

[Icculus]

funny that you state the crack example is unreasonable because crack is illegal. I think you forget that the act of modding an x, is, in fact VERY illegal. The bios is illegal, the act of using the mod to cirumvent the xbox's copy protection is illegal under the dmca, the 'homebrew' software is illegal because of build with a leaked XDK, oh wait...the chip itself is legal...if you use it as a paperweight!    

So, in recap, there is no such thing as a '100% legally modded xbox'. Doesn't mean i agree with it, thats just the way it is.
It's like you suing Ford because you hurt yourself installing a car bomb in it. It doesn't matter if its ford's negligence that caused the explosion, what were you doing installing a car bomb?? Sorry, MS would destroy anyone that tried to sue.  

[G-ForceX4]

Even IF EULA didnt exist, even if modchips were LEGAL, your argument STILL SUCKS because you never actually read the MS statement in the first place..... Ill post it here for your reading enjoyment.....

"A MS representative said Xbox Live would not include specific diagnostics to detect mod chips but would employ "military-grade security" to prevent hacking and other threats. The representative declined to specify any action MS was taking against mod chip makers but said the company would vigorously protect its intellectual property."
source: http://news.com.com/...040-948804.html Date August 7, 2002.

A month later, on September 7th, this was written.
"Yet language in the initial Xbox Live user agreement appears to allow MS to do exactly that. It states: "Xbox Live may only be accessed with an unmodified, except for MS authorized repairs and upgrades, Xbox video game console. Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software of this system is strictly prohibited."

The agreement further states: "MS may...retrieve information from the Xbox used to log on to Xbox Live as necessary to operate and protect the security of Xbox Live, and to enforce this Agreement."" Source: http://news.com.com/...040-956785.html

As you can see, from the first statement to the last, MS changed a little, but it was most likely a change from (can we stop modchips? yes....Well then is it profitable to? Possibly.....Well should we do it or no?lets just threaten them and see from there)  Even in the first one, they said they wouldnt include tactics to SPECIFICALLY detect modchips.....what they detect is BIOS difference.....therefore you could have a new bios, but no modchip at all, and its detected, and their argument is sound.  The "Hacking and other threats" also supports this, concidering that if you had a modified bios, you could theoretically call up different protocols during a game(possibly an in game un-shrouded map for a strategy game) that the other person could not obtain.  Again, MS wins.  Bill Gates isnt stupid.  He stopped us this one time, well get around it, hell stop us again, and we'll get around it again, but hes just gunna keep doing it to tell us that hes just as good as we are, and with every few that he successfully bans and KEEPS banned, he wins.... even though we get a hundred in, he stopped one and he won because thats all he needed for him to make a lil more money.  I think yall need to give billy a break.

[emoney]

wow so many posts that are just wrong.  First let's get to mod chips being illegal.  That is funny.  Mod chips are not illegal AT ALL.  A modified bios using MS copyrighted code is, but there are bios' written from scratch out there like say the linux kernel, no?  Saying 'specifically mod chips' and then checking for 'bios' and banning all mod chip users is still a bit deceptive, no?  so in recap there IS such a thing as a 100% legally modded xbox,

Of course the suing would only come into play if MS refused a refund for xbox live, which I don't think they do so it doesn't matter.  You people can be so funny at times.


g-force about your "ms changing their minds" and that piece on september 7th... that's when they finally saw the EULA, and how many people were banned or even blocked during beta?  oh yea, that's right, ZERO.  WHY?  hmm let's think, a lot of beta testers are modders, word gets out and modders don't buy live, hmmmm   But this is not deception, telling beta testers they won't detect em and not doing anything until the launch after thousands bought it.  A lot of the casual modders are scared to call MS and ask for a refund, MS knew this and therefore not all modders will return live so MS gets away with a lot of extra money.  Anyway, who cares about suing since they aren't refusing refunds, it's all goood.  But if they did refuse a refund, that would be illegal!!  



I'm going to bed I think now

[jcsickz]

this post is better off dead

[sinister]

Um Do you know what the DMCA is? If you don't it a law that states that any Circumvention of copyright protection systems is illegal. They don't care if your using it for linux. Even if u win your lawsuit they'll hull your ass off to jail for breaking there security system.  
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEGALLY MODDED XBOX UNDER THE DMCA.

[Bificus Beefy M.D]

Dude...just come of of it......MS was bitching about modchips months before live was ever released.  They said they would do everything in their power to stop modded xbox from ever beening played  on live and they did it.... it's their network they can do what ever they want to with it...you knew the risks when you modded your xbox.....just let it go...

[Ph34R]

QUOTE (XBOB LIVE @ Nov 30 2002, 03:48 AM)

okay, so i bought some crack off this dude on the corner last week, and they said it wouldnt kill me, now im dead.  you think thats deceptive??  sure it sounds good in thooery, but since it is stated in the eula and they made the comment before xbox live was available... you dont stand a chance. now if they came out and said now i wouldnt be banned regardless of the eula then you may, just may get a refund.  im an intelectual property rights lawyer (nothing to do with computers or software, mostly physics patents n things like that. im a scientist i just explain to the lawyers what they are looking at.) anyways, ms would tear you to shreads.

                                    That is a really BAD example. First off they arrest drug dealers when ever they can. Second in a lot of states they are making legal to prosecute some for murder if they died while using someones drugs.

So now it even makes drug dealers responsible for the death of there clients...Viable business or not, you can go to jail for murder for selling drugs.


I really feel that MS has too much power over Software/Hardware. What even happened to
"building a better mouse trap." You know its not against the law to mod a Car and sell it as your own design. You see it every day with conversions vans and Saleen Mustangs. You don't see Ford voiding its warranty because someone had it modded out. Or not allowing you to drive the car for LIFE beacuse you added some mods on it.

[emoney]

QUOTE (sinister @ Nov 30 2002, 03:49 PM)

Um Do you know what the DMCA is? If you don't it a law that states that any Circumvention of copyright protection systems is illegal. They don't care if your using it for linux. Even if u win your lawsuit they'll hull your ass off to jail for breaking there security system.   THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEGALLY MODDED XBOX UNDER THE DMCA.

                                    wow you have no grip on reality dude.  IT is not illegal to mod your xbox.  It does not violate the DMCA, maybe if you read the whole damn thing you would know the exceptions.  Don't just say "DMCA" and try and seem like you know something, let me quote something for you since you think you know it all......

"Reverse Engineering Exception. Section 1201(f) allows software developers to circumvent technological protection measures of a lawfully obtained computer program in order to identify the elements necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs. A person may reverse engineer the lawfully acquired program only where the elements necessary to achieve interoperability are not readily available and reverse engineering is otherwise permitted under the copyright law.7 Furthermore, a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent and make available to others the information or means for the purpose of achieving interoperability.
"

HMM can you read and comprehend?  Well that says that YOU CAN CIRCUMVENT their protection measures if you are trying to get an independently created program to work with it!  Linux=independently created, modding the xbox to circumvent the protection to allow linux kernel to work with it for PERSONAL use is legal.   AND they may develop AND employ the means to circumvent and make it available for us.  PRECISELY the reason why mod chips are legally sold every day.    Don't spout the law if you don't know the whole thing.


So how do you feel now knowing that you were so horribly wrong in your post?

[sinister]

tell that to the guy that invented decss! That was their defense! Look how far it got him. Ms isn't as sue happy as the MPAA. So if it ever comes to push to shove Ms has the upper hand, Sad but true.

[emoney]

QUOTE (sinister @ Nov 30 2002, 10:24 PM)

tell that to the guy that invented decss! That was their defense! Look how far it got him. Ms isn't as sue happy as the MPAA. So if it ever comes to push to shove Ms has the upper hand, Sad but true.

                                    if mod chips were illegal do you think they would be sold so freely?  It's not like anyone is hiding that they sell mod chips, my GOD!  are you people that blind?  If it was at all POSSIBLE for ms to stop mod chips then they WOULD, they can't so they do the next best thing and don't let you play live with them.  I will remember not to post anything else that isn't "I love MS"

That seems to be the common theme everywhere, MS is always right, they can do no wrong, no matter what the law says MS will win.  Whatever, have fun

[sinister]

Well in the USA, you don't want to be caught dead selling any kind of MOD chips. Why do you think Mod chips are always sold from overseas or Canada?

[forcelite]

" A person may reverse engineer the lawfully acquired program only where the elements necessary to achieve interoperability "

This does not comply with linux for xbox because the code (buildkit) used to make it was not lawfully obtained.

Also you couldnt sue M$ for a number of reasons. Main ones being that m$ never detects the modchips, just the bios's and Harddrive keys, Also I dont believe that it was ever officially stated that they would not be banning modchips on retail live, beta is a trial period that is used to test a product, so whatever they do with that is independent from what the retail situation is.