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[melon]

[The unProfessional]

QUOTE

but please come over here and you'd see america from a different perspective.

That's correct... but I don't consider my perspective of Sweden more valuable than yours - you're the one who lives there.  You probably have an incredibly skewed perspective of the U.S... as an individual, you need to understand that before making accusations.

The shortcomings of the Chinese is a whole other subject.  Personally, having done alot of business with Chinese companies, I find the culture in general to be fairly ruthless and enormously greedy.  Thankfully, I've only experienced that behavior in business, for the most part.

[gronne]

QUOTE

Gronne, you'll probably say that I should be riding a unicycle to work and heating my house with solar panels, but I prefer the practical approach.

I'm not accusing you for the world pollution, and I don't ask anything from you but to not acknowledge the problem as complete bogus. The scientists don't do this for fun, I suppose.

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Sure you do. Just like Jihadist "know" they will get 72 virgins upon killing themselves in a suicide attack.

Just like you "know" you'll go to heaven.

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You asked for a respected Scientists that thinks that Global Warming is rubbish and I gave it to you. You cant get more respected than Massachusetts Institute of Technology Meteorologist professor Richard Lindzen. And unlike most of the so called scientists that are proclaiming "Global Warming", he is actually an expert in the field.

And because he must be right, that would make the absolute majority of all scientists wrong then, I guess?

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Now that we know that "Global Warming" does not exists and have spent countless trillions trying to stop it leaving the rest of the world bankrupt, we insist that the united states pay for the rest of the world to catch up to their current level of science, and open their library of secrets to the rest of the world.

If this scenario would be true, then I would almost be proud humanity at least did something to one of the greatest problem we would face. But believe me, I genuinely hope you're right.

[melon]

To be fair to gronne the general opinion the world has of Americans isnt very good.
The stereotype (wrongly) is of an obese person who is arrogant and rude.
Every person I know that has done some back packing says whenever you meet an American they are saying they are Canadian to avoid getting shit or worse.
I intend to say i'm Irish when I go because our country isnt nearly as unpopular as yours but its still unpopular, Gronne can confirm that.

[The unProfessional]

Of course the general consensus is anti-American.  Most of the world considers the US a superpower.  As a result, the US will always be the first blamed for just about anything.  It's a basic component of human nature.  Not only that, but the US steretypes, whether they're right or wrong, are the opinions of those who bring them to you - primarily hollywood and "news" organizations.  This is why you must always trust your own eyes before theirs.

I'm not one to plaster American flags all over myself, but I'd never lie about my nationality.  In my opinion, it's cowardly to show shame in your homeland, wherever it may be.

[gronne]

QUOTE(The unProfessional @ Jan 11 2005, 09:48 PM)

That's correct... but I don't consider my perspective of Sweden more valuable than yours - you're the one who lives there.  You probably have an incredibly skewed perspective of the U.S... as an individual, you need to understand that before making accusations.

It's not a fair comparison as you hardly get to know anything about Sweden, whereas I have to breath american culture no matter I like it or not, and I don't. But you obviously know a lot more about USA, from your perspective at least. And believe me, I know when I'm hurting someone's toe. One learn to see things from the opposite perspective. That however doesn't mean you should avoid pointing out their flaws, and it's apparent I don't when the issue is important to me. Like this one.

And that's right melon that chart didn't look too good in comparison. I don't think we drive that little in Sweden, but we should consider that our gas cost twice as much as us than for the americans, and we are a very concerned people who do what we can to help the environment. The companies in Sweden have great problems with environmental laws. Really good, if you ask me.

Melon: You're right that we think less of Britain when you supported Bush. But we don't think less of the brittish people as we know most of you didn't support the war anyway, and we know that you really opposed it. I actually like brits pretty a lot, as I know that you take a lot more responsibility than the americans. The americans, however, didn't oppose the war anywhere near the brits. Too bad.

[SKoT]

QUOTE(gronne @ Jan 11 2005, 10:28 PM)

It's not a fair comparison as you hardly get to know anything about Sweden, whereas I have to breath american culture no matter I like it or not, and I don't. But you obviously know a lot more about USA, from your perspective at least. And believe me, I know when I'm hurting someone's toe. One learn to see things from the opposite perspective. That however doesn't mean you should avoid pointing out their flaws, and it's apparent I don't when the issue is important to me. Like this one.

[The unProfessional]

QUOTE

The companies in Sweden have great problems with environmental laws. Really good, if you ask me.

They do here, as well.  Through college I wrote analysis software to process data we collected about companies all over the US (as well as some in Europe and Africa).  We had the enjoyment of notifying many of them of their "Accidental" infringements on local environmental law.  Very gratifying.  Many of us Americans are also very concerned for our environment.  However, as a long-time industrialized nation, many new conventions conflict with the long-term habits of ancient industries and corporations.  Gradually we're having an impact and forcing old dogs to learn new tricks, and in the end it all works out.  They always go kicking and screaming, but eventually they start saving money in waste removal & processing, avoiding fines, etc.

You are force-fed pieces of American "culture" indeed.  It's a broadcasted mis-representation of the American people.  The pop-culture hollywood atmosphere is brutally wealthy, and speak much louder than they should given their understanding of world policy.  It's also an overwhelming tendency for them to spread anti-US sentiment as much as humanly possible.  They seem to enjoy spreading hatred about the country that fills their pockets.

[gronne]

QUOTE(SKoT @ Jan 11 2005, 10:37 PM)

... Stereotyping?

[damam]

QUOTE(The unProfessional @ Jan 11 2005, 09:22 PM)

Whether or not the effects of global warming can be substantiated with current research and technology, we should assume that the fewer harmful emissions we have, the better, for many reasons, not just global warming.

I agree with that - I live in a city with a terrible inversion problem.  Its uncomfortable to live in an area that has pollution issues.  I just dont think the reason to clean up should be due to some, at the very least, highly controversial claim like "Global Warming".  And I certainly dont think that my tax dollars should go to cleaning up other countries pollution issues.  If they dont like asthma, they can clean it up themselves.

QUOTE(Gronne)

Just like you "know" you'll go to heaven.

Well atleast you have demonstrated you know what a dogma is.  Now if you can just take one step further and realize that Global Warming is a dogma as well . . .

QUOTE(Gronne)

And because he must be right, that would make the absolute majority of all scientists wrong then, I guess?

Its not a majority of experts in the field.  Their is not even a consensus of the experts.  The only real consensus that seems to exists among meteorologists is that the Kyoto Protocol will have no impact on climate change.  And that is it.  Why should Americans even give it a glance?

[gronne]

QUOTE(damam @ Jan 11 2005, 10:51 PM)

I agree with that - I live in a city with a terrible inversion problem.  Its uncomfortable to live in an area that has pollution issues.  I just dont think the reason to clean up should be due to some, at the very least, highly controversial claim like "Global Warming".  And I certainly dont think that my tax dollars should go to cleaning up other countries pollution issues.  If they dont like asthma, they can clean it up themselves.

They can clean it up themselves? Well as you are the greatest reason to the environmental problems why should others pay for what you've done? The great paradox is that the poor people living in South America, Africa and Asia who don't pollute much are the ones that will have the greatest problems with catastrophees, whereas the rich people who created the problems will have minor problems with natural catastrophees. Talk about a paradox. Eventually it will hit USA hard as well, but by that time you're not a superpower anymore, so you can't help when you finally want to.

Unpro: That sounds good. Let's hope they actually will learn the old dog to sit then. You seem to acknowledge the issue as real.

[The unProfessional]

I acknowledge that pollution is real.  I take responsibility for it.  I don't however agree that Global Warming is a substantiated issue (yet) or that the US is somehow responsible for the world.  I did mention my involvement with environmental research.  To the extent of my research, I experienced no legislation more strict than that of the United States in regards to environmental protection.

[damam]

QUOTE(Gronne)

They can clean it up themselves? Well as you are the greatest reason to the environmental problems why should others pay for what you've done? The great paradox is that the poor people living in South America, Africa and Asia who don't pollute much are the ones that will have the greatest problems with catastrophees, whereas the rich people who created the problems will have minor problems with natural catastrophees. Talk about a paradox. Eventually it will hit USA hard as well, but by that time you're not a superpower anymore, so you can't help when you finally want to.

That is totally absurd in every possible way
the collective pollution my country is putting out is not causing asthma (which actually has been tied to pollution and there is a consensus on) in Africa, South America, or Asia     These are localized issues that remain in localized regions
To say that Pollution is causing "Global Warming" is a stretch.  To say it is causing natural disaster is entirely unsuportable.  Like I said earlier, when we start having the biggest storms ever seen in the last 8000 years (ill even shorten that up a bit and say recorded history), AND have had several such events in recent history (like the last 10 years), You Might have an arguement.  Until that occurs, you have nothing to base your claims on.

QUOTE(The unProfessional)

The shortcomings of the Chinese is a whole other subject.  Personally, having done alot of business with Chinese companies, I find the culture in general to be fairly ruthless and enormously greedy.  Thankfully, I've only experienced that behavior in business, for the most part.

Isnt that the truth.  They are hard negotiators.  Even when you think you have a deal, and stuff is being produced and sold, it doesnt mean a thing.  And with no copy right agreements etc, there is little that can stop them.  The only thing that is making them economically US friendly right now is that they are peged to the US Dollar - that ever changes watch out.  

[gronne]

QUOTE(The unProfessional @ Jan 11 2005, 11:22 PM)

I acknowledge that pollution is real.  I take responsibility for it.  I don't however agree that Global Warming is a substantiated issue (yet) or that the US is somehow responsible for the world.  I did mention my involvement with environmental research.  To the extent of my research, I experienced no legislation more strict than that of the United States in regards to environmental protection.

[gronne]

QUOTE

That is totally absurd in every possible way
the collective pollution my country is putting out is not causing asthma (which actually has been tied to pollution and there is a consensus on) in Africa, South America, or Asia  These are localized issues that remain in localized regions
To say that Pollution is causing "Global Warming" is a stretch.

Global warming, which is caused by pollution(not what you think, I know) affects floodings and tornadoes(you should know about them, FL), which most often occurs in poorer areas. So, I'm not talking about asthma.